Quijote Light Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='The hairy bear' post='1673695' date='Feb 4 2009, 11.02']I believe "the rule" that prevents Ben to kill Widmore has to do with the time travels. As we know you can't significally alter what has already happened. If in the past Ben had received knowledge that Widmore is alive at some point in the future, then he cannot be killed until this point of the future. Let's put it another way. Richard has received a visit from John in the past. [b]If he tried to murder Jhon when he is born, probably "the Island" would prevent it from happen somehow, since John has already done things that affect the past as it is established.[/b][/quote] I wonder if John's mother being hit by the car in Cabin Fever was an attempted murder? Locke's recovery was deemed a miracle, as he was the youngest preemy to survive at that hospital at the time and had to spend time in an incubater. I could see Whidmore attempting such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G'Kar Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 For some reason, I always thought it was Locke's father who was driving that car. That he had found out his GF was pregnant and didn't want anything dragging him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatuous Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Lightning Lord' post='1673653' date='Feb 4 2009, 11.35']I think Ben is human enough to care for his daughter. He is still a ruthless SOB, but I just don't want to think that that is all he is.[/quote] If he was human enough to care for his daughter, he never would wagered with her life in the first place. He cared for her after she was gone to use her death to threaten his adversary, how convenient. My problem with the idea of revenge is that it calls for Ben to be irrational and rash yet every other of his scenes in "The Shapes of Things to Come", all the ones that came before the meeting with Widmore, showed Ben to be cold and calculating, even the ones right after Alex's death. You say Ben's threat was proof that Ben's human, I see it as Ben acting like he's one of the Oceanic 815 to produce a particular response from Widmore. "I can't threaten you but you have a daughter. So I am threatening her." If Ben told Widmore "Since your actions killed my daughter, I'm going to do everything I can to make certain you don't get what you want. In this case, the Island.", you would just say that it's just Ben being Ben. G'Kar, it's true that"The Other Woman" showed Ben to be petty and jealous but remember that he filed Juliet under the category "possession". She was on the Island because he wanted her there and he felt she should have remembered that. He didn't actively kill Goodwin even if he did enjoy showing her the corpse a bit too much. Open question prior to tonight's show {Which I feel will cover this}: Is Ben actively, passively or not at all trying to kill Penny? You can keep saying that the threat to kill her is real but then what he is doing about it? I guess I should mention here that I don't think Ben's one of the "bad guys" or a "good guy" but Widmore is a different issue. We saw Widmore kill his comrade by snapping his neck and he was going to cut off a stranger's arm; He used Faraday, Desmond and Penny to create multiple paths to the Island without any regard to their life and he forced them to be miserable until 2004 {or whenever in Faraday's case}. That supercedes Ben's spin on Widmore's character; Widmore's actions speaks louder than Ben's words. I honestly don't think Ben's capable of being human yet. His life was too abnormal for him to feel real empathy with anyone. He sees everyone as rabbits with numbers on the side, there for him to manipulate like puppets. I would say Hugo is the only one that can help make him more human, not his adopted daughter Alex and certainly not her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Lord Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Fatuous' post='1673814' date='Feb 4 2009, 12.15']If he was human enough to care for his daughter, he never would wagered with her life in the first place. He cared for her after she was gone to use her death to threaten his adversary, how convenient. My problem with the idea of revenge is that it calls for Ben to be irrational and rash yet every other of his scenes in "The Shapes of Things to Come", all the ones that came before the meeting with Widmore, showed Ben to be cold and calculating, even the ones right after Alex's death. You say Ben's threat was proof that Ben's human, I see it as Ben acting like he's one of the Oceanic 815 to produce a particular response from Widmore. "I can't threaten you but you have a daughter. So I am threatening her." If Ben told Widmore "Since your actions killed my daughter, I'm going to do everything I can to make certain you don't get what you want. In this case, the Island.", you would just say that it's just Ben being Ben.[/quote] First of all, I did not, at any point, say that Ben's threat was proof that he is human. I do not think I offered up anything as proof that Ben was human. I offered up the opinion that I wanted him to have a streak of humanity. I further stated, essentially, that I wanted this, because otherwise he is just a robot. I don't like watching robbts, you know too easily how they'll act. I might not know what action Ben would take, but I would never be surprised by it, no matter how brutal. Second, I don't think revenge is necessarily rash and irrational. I think The Count of Monte Cristo showed this very well: the cold, precise revenge. Planned out and executed with no regard for anything else. All consuming. I can see Ben wrecking that kind of revenge. For his daughter, whom I believe he loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='G'Kar' post='1673086' date='Feb 3 2009, 23.19']The island better hurry because there ain't many left. I'm amazed how many survivors got killed off last episode. Pretty soon, their will be no red shirts left. :([/quote] Well, I wasn't thinking about the red shirts so much...but how the main Losties would take over some of the roles of the Others...don't know how it would work exactly...but it seems to make some sort of sense in my head... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I was just watching the preview, and I was thinking: Maybe Ben sent the lawyers to Kate's house to get Jack custody of the Kid. (Which would pull Kate back to the Island in pursuit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxom 1974 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1674449' date='Feb 4 2009, 21.01']I was just watching the preview, and I was thinking: Maybe Ben sent the lawyers to Kate's house to get Jack custody of the Kid. (Which would pull Kate back to the Island in pursuit)[/quote] You dare use LOGIC thinking about this show...? Oy. :P So, all these guys after Sayid with the dart guns...agents of Ben's to enforce the Losties to come to his side? If they're Widmore's, I notice he's not trying to KILL the Losties...perhaps he knows he needs them to get back on the island too...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Woot, he lives!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superkick Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 OOOOOOOOOOH A GOOD OLD FASHION PLOT TWIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caligula_K Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Shryke' post='1674449' date='Feb 4 2009, 21.01']I was just watching the preview, and I was thinking: Maybe Ben sent the lawyers to Kate's house to get Jack custody of the Kid. (Which would pull Kate back to the Island in pursuit)[/quote] Well this has been proved completely wrong tonight... :leaving: Some good twists tonight. It's pretty hard to believe that Jin not only survived the boat exploding without a scratch, but also has survived unconscious on a plank of wood in the water during a storm for the last day or two days or however long it's been, but I do love that crazy kid, so I'll forgive it. And it was pretty annoying how they made the reveal of Rousseau's name all cliffhangery; as if anyone didn't know who those French people were as soon as they appeared! Any ideas on who the people shooting at them in the future are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecayingExponentials Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Brahm_K' post='1674545' date='Feb 4 2009, 22.45']Some good twists tonight. It's pretty hard to believe that Jin not only survived the boat exploding without a scratch, but also has survived unconscious on a plank of wood in the water during a storm for the last day or two days or however long it's been, but I do love that crazy kid, so I'll forgive it. And it was pretty annoying how they made the reveal of Rousseau's name all cliffhangery; as if anyone didn't know who those French people were as soon as they appeared![/quote] I agree - I find it hard to believe Jin survived that entire excursion without a scratch. Also, why didn't he or Rousseau recognize each other if they had met in the past? Is this some sort of parallel time strand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caligula_K Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Leer Dayne' post='1674559' date='Feb 4 2009, 23.03']I agree - I find it hard to believe Jin survived that entire excursion without a scratch. Also, why didn't he or Rousseau recognize each other if they had met in the past? Is this some sort of parallel time strand?[/quote] Well, Jin wouldn't recognize Rousseau (in the season 1 area, that is) because he hadn't met her yet. Rousseau is trickier, but it can perhaps be attributed to the fact that 20 years have passed and along the way she went kind of insane. Plus I don't think Rousseau and Jin ever had any real conversations; maybe she saw a Korean man sometime in season 1, never learned his name, and made the reasonable assumption that he wasn't the Korean man she met 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebla Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Brahm_K' post='1674561' date='Feb 4 2009, 22.08']Well, Jin wouldn't recognize Rousseau (in the season 1 area, that is) because he hadn't met her yet. Rousseau is trickier, but it can perhaps be attributed to the fact that 20 years have passed and along the way she went kind of insane.[/quote] well for one she is pregnant, heavier. And of course younger. Bo problem with Jin not recohnizing her until she said her name. Sawyer's Thanking God and then taking it back was AWESOME. :rofl: Miles' nosebleed I think is another kint that he was born on the island. The order of the nosebleeds seems to indicate length of time on the island. Charlotte may have been born on the island and lived there as a child. Miles not as long. Juliet is next in length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Yes, it does appear the longer you spent on the island the sooner the nosebleeds happen. I guess Ben just wanted to get Kate to that point on the marina where she was freaked out over losing Aaron. That seems a bit fuzzy to me after Ben reveals to Kate that he was the one who hired the attorney. Why not lie, tell her it's Widmore or something and use it to convince her to bolt for the island? I guess it'll be explained in the next episode. Seeming flaw: the kayak/canoe thing showed up in one of the times they jumped to but had never been seen before. So it would seem it's one of the things unique to that time. So ... wouldn't it disappear at the next jump? I thought they were all idiots because what was going to happen was a jump and then they're all in the water. Jump happened, no in the water. Anyone got a good explanation for this? I find the Rousseau/Jin thing to be not in keeping with the rules the show has set up. The reality is the writers didn't plan that little bit out from the start and, imo, shouldn't have re-introduced Jin in that way if they wanted to obey their rules. But I'm sure others and the producers will be able to come up with some sort of reasonable explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 You mean "Why did the Kyak jump with them?"? Because they were in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Is that one of the things the writers set up? If your body is touching the thing you take it with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecayingExponentials Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Jon Targaryen' post='1674690' date='Feb 5 2009, 04.08']Is that one of the things the writers set up? If your body is touching the thing you take it with you?[/quote] Weapons that the survivors are holding seem to follow through time, so I guess the kayak could fit within 'the rules'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Targaryen Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Oh yeah, I forgot that rifle is not one of their time's but from Widmore and co. Well, I guess that's how they're rolling with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 They mention it earlier too. Stuff in your immediate vicinity travels with you. It's why they've all still got clothes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 Good episode. Nice that Jin is still alive, and Sayid's ascent to Unstoppable Badass status continues. Seriously, I was expecting Ben to say they had to bust Hurley out of the county lock-up single-handed and Sayid not to bat an eyelid, tool up and say, "Let's roll." And they'd do it as well. The ending was predictable, but still cool. Now everyone is going to be fixated on what happens to Mortand's arm, which I believe has figured prominently in the show's fanfic. We also get to see Danielle's friends get the disease and her to shoot them all. Should be fun. Just hope Jin doesn't get caught up in it. Plus that guy has got to really be hating being on boats that explode and he ends up in the water for ages. Twice is just bad luck. [quote]They mention it earlier too. Stuff in your immediate vicinity travels with you. It's why they've all still got clothes.[/quote] Although Sawyer's shirt is likely to inevitably disappear again at some point ;) It is amusing that the producers know full well the fanservice firepower at their disposal and how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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