And yet another Battlestar thread

[Shryke]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1673039' date='Feb 3 2009, 22.35']I'd argue that the Cylons need to come to terms with their own crimes; those being, of course, the genocide they wrought on the Colonies and the tyranny they brought to New Caprica. Amazingly, after those incidents they still consider themselves morally superior to humanity. ::shakes head::[/quote]

Aye. I'm pretty sure this is the reason we see Caprica-6 in the last episode spout something off about how "They hate us cause they're afraid of our children" or some bullshit like that I don't remember.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1672892' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.26']It may be just as simple as this. The cycle will repeat itself forever until the Humans learn to do the one thing they couldn't do on the Colonies, nor could they do it on Kobol - actually consider the Cylons "people". Just as every Human is not guilty of every crime committed by every other Human, collective guilt cannot be assigned to the Cylons either. They have the rights of person (including the right to not be beaten or raped as captives).[/quote]

Yes collective guilt can be assigned to Cylons. At least every one of them who knew they were a Cylon. With few exceptions, they behave collectively. Outside of those who have been 'corrupted' by the outside, the individual numbers all act in lockstep with one another. Boomer actually voting against the rest of the rest of the 6's was viewed with astonishment. They implied pretty heavily (and I think outright said) that such a thing had never happened. All of the model numbers (final 5 excepted) were aware of the impending genocide. There is no evidence of any dissent leading up to the slaughter. Presumably each model number had a hand in carrying it out.

Quite simply every Cylon that knew they were a cylon is complicit in genocide. They are all guilty. They are not people, they are butchers. None of them deserve to be treated any differently. It is impossible for them to atone for that crime. Any amount of human hatred of them is 110% justified. Any atrocity that humanity may deliver unto them is completely deserved. There is no reason why they shouldn't be wiped out completely short of an inability to do so. (which of course is the situation the remnants of humanity find themselves in) They have no rights and should have no rights. They should die.

[Sebastian]

Actually, if it turns out that the humans committed a similar genocide against the Cylons during the first Cylon War, seeing them as toasters instead of persons, I think the genocide the Cylons committed could be justified by the same logic you use to condemn them.

But I agree, the show has been trying to portray the Cylons in a more sympathetic light while all the time evading the question of their culpability in the genocide. Actually, even the reasons for the genocide were never explained in a non-cryptic way. The writers sometimes seem to pretend it didn't happen, with some characters blaming the Cylons only for New Caprica and not for the mass murder of billions of people.

[davos]

[quote]Quite simply every Cylon that knew they were a cylon is complicit in genocide. They are all guilty. They are not people, they are butchers[/quote]

Agree with the first part but not the second. From what we know of cylon decision making when the decision was made to wipe out the colonies they would have certainly all had to support it. While they are all butchers that doesn't mean they are not people though. People do awful things. Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were people and also butchers. IRL if we try to seperate those who commit the most heinous acts from being human we fail to understand that such behaviour is a potential that exists in human nature and if we are not diligent agianst the possiblity then such horrors will continue to occur.

Now, I'm hope that what I said above is not interpreted as excusing atrocity. In humans those responsbile for such things should be condemned and destroyed. There is an important difference in regards to the cylons though. The cylons who made the decision to all but wipe out the colonials were acting in essense as a collective. There was little, if any difference between the copies of the various models and little, if any, difference in both goals and methods between the 7 models. Exposure to the colonials and the effect of events has effectively changed the Cylons. There are not significant differences in both behaviour and goals between the models as well as differences between variuos copies of each model. I would argue that at least some of the cylons are so difference from what they were they are not the beings that slaughers the colonials. Of it would be unreasonable to expect all, or even the majority, of the colonials to get past their quite reasonable fears and be readily willing to work with the cylons that have changed for the better towards humanity. I think part of the point though is that unless that can be done the cycle will continue.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

EHK,

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1673313' date='Feb 4 2009, 05.22']Quite simply every Cylon that knew they were a cylon is complicit in genocide. They are all guilty. They are not people, they are butchers. None of them deserve to be treated any differently. It is impossible for them to atone for that crime. Any amount of human hatred of them is 110% justified. Any atrocity that humanity may deliver unto them is completely deserved. There is no reason why they shouldn't be wiped out completely short of an inability to do so. (which of course is the situation the remnants of humanity find themselves in) They have no rights and should have no rights. They should die.[/quote]

I agree with Davos. "People" have commited some pretty horrible acts. "People" on this show have committed some pretty horrible acts. Whether the hatred humanity feels toward the Cylons is deserved or justified is, in my opinion, irrelevant to the situation the human fleet (remnant of human civilization finds itself in). The Rebel Cylons and the Human remnant need each other and are unlikely to survive on their own. Therefore whether the hatred the Humans feel toward the Cylons is justified or not if they kill every remaining Cylon only to die out themselves they've achived nothing by their vengence.

Here's a link with a clip from early in "Blood on the Scales.":

[url="http://io9.com/5143700/jane-espenson-talks-bsg-caprica-buffy-and-dollhouse"]http://io9.com/5143700/jane-espenson-talks...y-and-dollhouse[/url]

Here's the same clip on Youtube:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40v3Jz8zSGI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40v3Jz8zSGI[/url]

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Sebastian' post='1673391' date='Feb 4 2009, 07.36']Actually, if it turns out that the humans committed a similar genocide against the Cylons during the first Cylon War, seeing them as toasters instead of persons, I think the genocide the Cylons committed could be justified by the same logic you use to condemn them.[/quote]

The First Cylon War ended in an armistice, which means there were enough Cylons left to force the Colonists to terms. No genocide there, although it may have been attempted. In any case, the Cylons were let be for 40 years, which kind of takes away any "they started it" excuse they might try.

[Ran]

I'm kind of trying to analogize to WWII -- what if some portion of the Germany military split with the Reich and offered to join the Allies, believing that Hitler and co. were corrupt and ruining both Germany and Europe? And said, "We'll join you, but you have to give us amnesty in regards to any war crimes we may have committed on behalf of the Reich."

Seems to me that there really wouldn't be a question of taking them up on it. It's realpolitik -- they may be unsavory bastards, but they'll be _our_ unsavory bastards, and in the long run it looks like it'll save lots of lives and effort.

The same thing with the Cylons, IMO. If you have to work with them, you'll have to accomodate them to some degree, and it makes it painfully difficult to then say, "Well, we're going to wipe all of you out, even though you helped us survive."

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Based on the clips I posted sounds like Roslin has two problems, the mutiny, and the Cylons who want to jump away with her on board, again.

[Myrddin]

[quote name='John Kenady' post='1672991' date='Feb 3 2009, 19.30']You might want to wait until Friday afternoon to watch it. It's a pretty good "frak you, audience!" of a cliffhanger.[/quote]
I skipped out covering my eyes and singing "lalalalalalala" so I didn't see your reply.

Yeah, I wished I had waited. :)

Great frakking episode.

And yeah, the 15+ pages of discussion following basically illustrates how the mutiny could happen.

One thing that I've always wondered: doesn't a situation like the fleet's in usually warrent martial law? Everything about the new civilization post-attack on the colonies just screams a need for a dictator-like leadership (speaking historically, not from any desire to see the rise of any dictatorship)?

The ragatg fleet reminds me of a high school.

The students frequently bitch about how grown up they are and that they know what to do, but the principal knows they really have no idea how to survive in the real world (let alone in deep space while being tracked and attacked by hostile forces...). Sure the principal lets the student government play at leadership, but he really knows that when push comes to shove, the call lies with him, not the cute student body president (who he is now banging in the teacher's lounge :smileysex: ). And certainly not with the rebellious trouble maker who likes to sneak off campus and stage student strikes to get what he wants.

I guess to me the "democracy" of the fleet always seemed like a sham that Adama only allowed because he knew they would need that tradition once they found Earth (or a planet to settle).

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Myrddin,

I've always found the devotion to "Democracy" in the Fleet to be an odd choice given their dire straits.

[Bronn Stone]

[quote name='Ran' post='1673549' date='Feb 4 2009, 07.19']I'm kind of trying to analogize to WWII -- what if some portion of the Germany military split with the Reich and offered to join the Allies, believing that Hitler and co. were corrupt and ruining both Germany and Europe? And said, "We'll join you, but you have to give us amnesty in regards to any war crimes we may have committed on behalf of the Reich."

Seems to me that there really wouldn't be a question of taking them up on it. It's realpolitik -- they may be unsavory bastards, but they'll be _our_ unsavory bastards, and in the long run it looks like it'll save lots of lives and effort.

The same thing with the Cylons, IMO. If you have to work with them, you'll have to accomodate them to some degree, and it makes it painfully difficult to then say, "Well, we're going to wipe all of you out, even though you helped us survive."[/quote]

This is pretty much what happened but in reverse. Significant numbers of Soviet citizens took up arms on behalf of the Third Reich (the Russian Revolution was still pretty fresh at that point - about twenty years earlier - and Stalin was not the sort of man who could ever be universally loved). Hitler never trusted the Vlasov or the Russian Liberation Army - nor the [i]Wehrmacht [/i]units formed from Russians or peoples of other Soviet Republics - and in many cases transferred them to the (then quiet) Western Front. This may have cost him the war in the East.

And Myriddin, you are dead on with your high school analogy. Adama should have either replaced every ship captain and crew with officers (from Pegasus if not before) or forced them to join the Colonial Forces. And made them subject to military discipline. Any ship that chose not to cooperate would have been free to do so, but no longer granted the privilege of jump coordinates. Especially once Zarek's men did their job on the ice moon.

[Ran]

Bronn,

[quote]Any ship that chose not to cooperate would have been free to do so, [b]but no longer granted the privilege of jump coordinates.[/b][/quote]

Would never, ever have crossed Adama's mind. He wouldn't see it as part of defending the fleet if he was prepared to leave some behind just because they were uncooperative on some point, IMO.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Bronn Stone' post='1673604' date='Feb 4 2009, 11.05']And Myriddin, you are dead on with your high school analogy. Adama should have either replaced every ship captain and crew with officers (from Pegasus if not before) or forced them to join the Colonial Forces. And made them subject to military discipline. Any ship that chose not to cooperate would have been free to do so, but no longer granted the privilege of jump coordinates. Especially once Zarek's men did their job on the ice moon.[/quote]

Ah...so military conscription or military rule? That wouldn't have sparked resistance[i] at all[/i].

Also, where was Adama supposed to get all of these officers? [i]Galactica [/i]was understaffed at the time of the holocaust, not to mention during the great flight, and [i]Pegasus [/i]had lost nearly 1000 men before encountering the fleet. Neither battlestar had the crew to spare on dominating civilian ships. The fleet survives only through cooperation, as Adama learned during Roslin's rebellion.

[Myrddin]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1673673' date='Feb 4 2009, 09.50']Ah...so military conscription or military rule? That wouldn't have sparked resistance[i] at all[/i].

Also, where was Adama supposed to get all of these officers? [i]Galactica [/i]was understaffed at the time of the holocaust, not to mention during the great flight, and [i]Pegasus [/i]had lost nearly 1000 men before encountering the fleet. Neither battlestar had the crew to spare on dominating civilian ships. The fleet survives only through cooperation, as Adama learned during Roslin's rebellion.[/quote]
I think the disconnect here is that the fleet is more akin to a wagon train than a small nation or city state. They are traveling through dangerous territory with a detachment of soldiers to protect them from the enemy. Does each wagon leader have equal say in how to cross the open prarie? Or should the one charged with their protection have final say on how they should proceed?

I'm actually surprised Adama hasn't just put the situation like this: if you want to travel with us to find a planet to settle, you do [b]this[/b]. If not, stay here or go your merry way without battlestar or viper support.

But since Adama is more of a benevolent dictator, he hasn't done this. ;)

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Myrddin' post='1673716' date='Feb 4 2009, 12.21']I'm actually surprised Adama hasn't just put the situation like this: if you want to travel with us to find a planet to settle, you do [b]this[/b]. If not, stay here or go your merry way without battlestar or viper support.[/quote]

He [i]has [/i]done that. Remember when Roslin fled to Kobol with one-third of the fleet? Adama knew where they'd gone, but he told Tigh that those that fled weren't needed. Of course they were, as they'd taken with them 18,000 people, several supply vessels and one mining ship, along with the only person capable of marshaling civilian support. So that tactic didn't work then and won't likely work now.

It's funny the way so many (not you, Myrddin) view the current situation. Adama was basically using the hammer to keep the fleet in line, and when that causes a rebellion, they say he needs to hammer harder. That didn't work very well on New Caprica for the Cylons, who were willing to nuke the entire colony. Will it work for Bill Adama, who isn't?

[Wouter]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1672886' date='Feb 4 2009, 01.18']The Cylons take over and next thing we see, it's a ways later and Tigh is in prison and down 1 eye. And the fact that they've built a prison already, with few other permanent structures, says alot.[/quote]
That's because the regular episodes skipped a lot. In the webisodes, a lot more was shown. The one who seem to have been taken right away though, are Starbuck (Leoben!) and Zarek, because the latter refused to cooperate with the Baltar administration under the Cylons.

Tigh's arrest came much later.

[quote name='Shryke' post='1673046' date='Feb 4 2009, 04.41']Aye. I'm pretty sure this is the reason we see Caprica-6 in the last episode spout something off about how "They hate us cause they're afraid of our children" or some bullshit like that I don't remember.[/quote]
Indeed. And this coming from one of the most "progressive" Cylons, one of the first to want a change in course. But all that insight she had in "Downloaded" seems barely there, now.

[TrackerNeil]

[quote name='Wouter' post='1673828' date='Feb 4 2009, 13.23']Indeed. And this coming from one of the most "progressive" Cylons, one of the first to want a change in course. But all that insight she had in "Downloaded" seems barely there, now.[/quote]

We should also consider something that happened at the end of Season 4.0, when one of the Sixes suggests to Three that they avoid taking hostages and try for a peaceful settlement with the humans. Three responds, "They'll never forgive us for New Caprica." I was floored, because evidently Three considers Cylon responsibility to have begun there, and not with the 20 billion lives they snuffed out on the Colonies. That suggests that the Cylons are nearly incapable of admitting or even considering their own culpability in...well, anything. One does not enter lightly into an alliance with those kinds of people.

[Wouter]

[quote name='Ran' post='1673549' date='Feb 4 2009, 16.19']I'm kind of trying to analogize to WWII -- what if some portion of the Germany military split with the Reich and offered to join the Allies, believing that Hitler and co. were corrupt and ruining both Germany and Europe? And said, "We'll join you, but you have to give us amnesty in regards to any war crimes we may have committed on behalf of the Reich."[/quote]
The problem is that the rebel Cylons don't believe they have committed any war crimes, and still feel mostly justified. At most they may feel they used too much violence, but they stilll feel they have the right to have gripes with the humans.

Regarding martial law, I think those who say that democracy really shouldn't be expected under those circumstances. But Adama decided to go along with Roslin as president in the miniseries (in some way this was good though, because otherwise she may not have been able to persuade him to defend the fleet instead of making a gallant but useless counterattack), and from that time on he basically went along with pseudo-democracy. It's hard to take something back after you have given it.

[davos]

[quote]I think the disconnect here is that the fleet is more akin to a wagon train than a small nation or city state. They are traveling through dangerous territory with a detachment of soldiers to protect them from the enemy. Does each wagon leader have equal say in how to cross the open prarie? Or should the one charged with their protection have final say on how they should proceed?[/quote]

Part of the problem is that its easy to assume that the colonials would behave in a rational, thought out fashion under the circumstances. I would argue that is not the case. These are people who've been thrown into a situation that no one would have ever even considered a possiblity much less put any thought into how to handle it. No one would have been prepared for this. The fleet was thrown together, largely in a desperation bid by Roslyn to save as many people as possible. The political and social situation that resulted largely evolved organically. No one ever sat down and decided that was how they were going to handle it. So the fact that the arrangments are not exactly rationale doesn't bother me in the slightest. Now, the questions still can be raised as to wether what we've seen in the series can be seen to be a reasonable result of those individuals leading this group of people under these circumstances or if it ends up being a construct that exists wholey to serve the whims of the writers. Basically, did they think it out to any degree or is it just lazy writing.

First, lets look at the principle leaders. The elder Adama at the beginning was a ship captain left in the command of a out of date vessel. Both he and his ship were set to retire in a few days. He had been through a lot in the last few years of his life including the death of one child, estrangement from another and a divorse. While I'm not sure he was comfortably hanging up his hat he seemed very resigned to his lot in life and just plain rather tired. His second was a burned out drunk riding out the remainder of his career and dealing with a messy marriage situation. Roslyn was a cabinett level politician, something to not be laughed at by any means but was way down the pecking order in the executive branch. We also get the impression that she had far more of an education background ( I believe she refers to herself at several occasions as a school teacher) than a political one. She had also just found out that she was critically ill. Not one to set into leadership of her whole race in its fight for survival.

Now, lets look at how the arrangment between galactica and the fleet started. Adama was trying to rearm Galactica to get it into the battle, one that he lacked the information to grasp was already lost. Roslyn scrapped together as many ships as she could. When they were attacked she took the ones with FTL capacity and jumped them to safety and eventually to galactica for protection. She then persuaded Adama that it was shepard the survivors to safety rather than fight an war that was already over. Adama came up with the idea of using legandary earth as a destination to give the survivors hope without realize that there was truth to it. So roslyn in essense had created the fleet. Adama was providing the military protection. So in both their minds its reasonable to see that they would both see both of them as having a roll in future leadership.

Now Roslyn could give herself some legitimancy in leadership because, as far as anyone in the fleet new, she was the acting president by vitue of those ahead of her in line having died in the attack. So it was natural for her to cling to that. Now, the fleet is a random assembly of different ships, with a variety of different collections of people on them. It would be natural for these people to look for some sense of normalcy in a world that has, for them, been turned upside down. So when the person, who also happened to provide the leadership to get them together and to safety is legitatemly the president of the colonies, or at least would be if the colonial government still exsisted, it also seems natural for them to latch on to that. roslyn, to consolidated that legtimacy, to help foster that illusion of normalcy and to assist her with leadership as well to give the people some feeling of having representation in fleet decision making created the qurom of 12, modeled on the colonial government. Adama would accept this for several reasons. First, given his temperment he probably strongly believes as well as is used to a representative government and so has no objection to the idea. Two, because the fleet itself was roslyn's creation, not his, that she has a share in the leadership decisions and hence in helping set what kind of society is going to exist within the fleet. Three, he probably recognized that there was benefit in creating that aforemention illusion of normacly, just as there was benefit in giving the fleet hope with the idea of searching for Earth. Fourth, and perhaps most important, I don't think Adama wanted all the leadership burden. Remember, when this happened he an emotionally exhausted midlevel commander who had accepted his lot in life and was getting ready to hang his hat up. He saw an opportunity to not be the dictator to the remnant of his race and jumped on it by acquiecing to an unspoken power sharing agreement. He was not thinking of the long term implications of this. At the time that this started they could not be sure they would be alive in a week, much less 4 years latter.

So, while its not a logical system I think that the initial arrangement between civilian and military leadership developed in a reasonable fashion given the major players involved and the specifics unique to their circumstances. the situation as it currently stands evolved over the course of the fleets journey and does not seem out of line with how it begin. While it can be argued that if this really did occur that it might have happened differently I don't think what the writers did create was at all unrealistic given the specifics of people, circumstances and eventts and they gave them to us. In fact I think they did a good job, creating a sitauation that seems to reflect the nuances of the situation and the strengths and foibles of those making the choices.

[Myrddin]

[quote name='TrackerNeil' post='1673796' date='Feb 4 2009, 12.06']It's funny the way so many (not you, Myrddin) view the current situation. Adama was basically using the hammer to keep the fleet in line, and when that causes a rebellion, they say he needs to hammer harder. That didn't work very well on New Caprica for the Cylons, who were willing to nuke the entire colony. Will it work for Bill Adama, who isn't?[/quote]
I think Adama here is more going to swing the hammer on his own people the hardest and without mercy.

He sees his crew (the whole military really) as his family with himself as the patriarch. So the mutiny is very personal. They aren't just rejecting his leadership and (bad) choices, but his positon as father. His love. When he said "No amnesty" for them, I believe him.

For the civilians who take part in the mutiny, I can see him being more forgiving (except for Zarek). For his own lost children, the airlock.