Atheism

[Eponine]

[quote name='cyrano' post='1715289' date='Mar 10 2009, 15.24']Come on. International students are taken care of by organizations comprising the nationality they belong to.[/quote]
I'm not saying that the Christian organizations are the only ones available. Just that they put in a LOT of effort toward proselytizing international students and it's pretty much encouraged by the school and it's very one-sided.

[Maithanet]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1715111' date='Mar 10 2009, 13.33']Certainly there are "less judgmental" religious groups, but if it makes no difference whether someone in the group believes in the core tenets of the religion (like that there is a god), then it's not a "religious" group anymore. That doesn't make it more attractive to me though, because if beliefs don't matter, why are we meeting under the pretense of religion?[/quote]

[I apologize in advance if this seems like too much an advertisement for my own religion.]

Well as a Unitarian Universalist, I can't agree with all you're saying. You seem to be satubg tgat religions have to work to teach their members what to think. However, what I particularly like about my church, is that we would rather emphasize how you think and how you interact with people. The basic tenets of UUism are rather similar to humanist teachings, in that we should respect the value of all people, consider the role we play in society and our impact on the environment, and accept diversity in almost all forms. UUs don't necessarily believe in god, and we have no sacred text, although the texts of other religions are often discussed for their value to our own lives.

Now, it sounds like you don't really think that is a religion, because the UU faith doesn't tell people what to believe (unless you consider sermons against racism, etc to be dictating your beliefs). But I don't think that's the case, because we provide a community and a framework to move forward in your life and address the spiritual and religious questions you may be having. And that's really what all religions do.
I've had the argument that my own religion is not a religion at all in the past, and it is very frustrating, personally.

Certainly, this isn't everyone's cup of tea. Some people feel like it is too loosely based, or too liberal (the majority of Unitarians are to the left of the Democratic party). I certainly understand it's not for everyone, and it's not like we proselytize or anything.
But I wouldn't dismiss "less judgmental" groups as having no purpose or value, even if you feel that path isn't one you care to follow.

[Anatole Kuragin]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1714482' date='Mar 10 2009, 00.11']While some of your revisions to my post make sense from a rational secular viewpoint, [b]I still completely missed your point.[/b][/quote]

Ok, I understand.

[quote name='EHK']I have a dream of one day watching hardcore penetration porn at primetime on every major network while smoking a fatty. Of imminent stem cell discovered medical advances that cure me in the nick of time when my years of unhealthy living come to take their toll. Of not having to import all of our skilled scientists anymore because a generation of kids were raised on fairytale nonsense instead of science. Of having a smarter, more inquisitive and critical populace that no longer shuns science and intellectualism. Of a more tolerant populace that no longer seeks to persecute a minority because god happens to have problems with buttsex. I'd also like radios free of Limbaughish nonsense and the destruction of the Republican Party, but that might be overreaching a bit.[/quote]

I believe in a better, enlightened United States. It's just a shame you can't run until 2012.

[Eponine]

[quote name='uneedathneed' post='1715473' date='Mar 10 2009, 17.54']Now, it sounds like you don't really think that is a religion, because the UU faith doesn't tell people what to believe (unless you consider sermons against racism, etc to be dictating your beliefs). But I don't think that's the case, because we provide a community and a framework to move forward in your life and address the spiritual and religious questions you may be having. And that's really what all religions do.[/quote]

I didn't mean to imply that "less judgmental" groups have no purpose or value in society. Although, if you've read my other posts, it is true that I don't find much personal value in "religious" groups of either the open or closed minded type. That's not meant as a criticism of those who do find value in them.

But the UU does have core tenets. And I don't believe in "the forces which create and uphold life" or in "prophetic women and men" or in "spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions". And these are "the backbone of [their] religious community". And it turns out that in subtle ways, it does matter to a lot of UUs that you believe in some kind of spirituality. I'm almost as uncomfortable at talks about "spiritual journeys" where everyone else seems to believe in it, as I am at a Bible study.

That may seem to contradict what I said before, but either they believe in this spirituality they profess and I should too if I want to be a full part of the group, or they don't really believe that it's important to believe in it, and then why are we all sitting around listening to a sermon about the "life source" if half of us think it's bunk?

[Maithanet]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1715510' date='Mar 10 2009, 18.23']But the UU does have core tenets. And I don't believe in "the forces which create and uphold life" or in "prophetic women and men" or in "spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions". And these are "the backbone of [their] religious community". And it turns out that in subtle ways, it does matter to a lot of UUs that you believe in some kind of spirituality. I'm almost as uncomfortable at talks about "spiritual journeys" where everyone else seems to believe in it, as I am at a Bible study.[/quote]

Uhh... what? Where are these quotes coming from? Because they don't seem to be describing UUism at all.

"the forces which create and uphold life" - I suppose this depends on how you look at it, but there's nothing in UU teachings that says that there is some sort of "force" that maintains, creates or upholds life. That's not to say that some UUs don't believe such things, but to say it is a tenet of the religion is simply not the case.

"prophetic women and men" - We definitely do not have any prophets.

"spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions". Some UUs like the Earth-centered Gaia stuff. But by no means all, and I don't know what traditions it is you think UUs follow.

Here's the seven principles of UUism that I remember being taught at church:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."

Now, I agree that not everyone believes these things. But most people living in Western society do (I think the most controversial part would be the 'use of the democratic process...in society at large'). However, lots of people want a few more answers from their religion, and feel that this only covers basic ethics rather than spirituality/religion. That's a different argument altogether.

[quote name='Eponine' post='1715510' date='Mar 10 2009, 18.23']That may seem to contradict what I said before, but either they believe in this spirituality they profess and I should too if I want to be a full part of the group, or they don't really believe that it's important to believe in it, and then why are we all sitting around listening to a sermon about the "life source" if half of us think it's bunk?[/quote]

So, trying to get back to the point, I think that some religions (with UUism being one) do feel its important that you believe in the core tenets, but nonetheless are sufficiently broad to include many different approaches to spirituality.

Again, this probably isn't for you (yes I have read some of your other postings on religion), but I got the impression that you were saying that all religions are either exclusive in terms of saying things you do not believe or of little value because they don't take a stand on anything. I contend that is simply not the case.

[Eponine]

This is where I got my information:
[url="http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml"]http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml[/url]

Ok, I don't believe in ANY "approach to spirituality", because I don't believe in spirituality.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I think inclusive religions have less value than exclusive religions, that was not my intent. However, I do think that if nothing in a religion has to do with "spiritual" issues and if that religion is fine with materialists being part of their congregation, what you have is no longer a "religion". Perhaps it functions in the same way that a religion does, has the same place in people's lives, but it's more like a humanitarian group of people trying to live in the best way without necessary agreement on "the cause, nature and purpose of the universe", which I consider somewhat different from religion. I'd be inclined to say that this kind of group has as much or more value as a religious group though.

[i]
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.[/i]

[Annelise]

For context..

[quote]Until last year, Garrison (then Vyckie Bennett), a 43-year-old single mother of seven living in Norfolk, Neb., followed a fundamentalist pronatalist theology known as Quiverfull. Shunning all forms of birth control, Quiverfull women accept as many children as God gives them as a demonstration of their radical faith and obedience as well as a means to advance his kingdom: winning the country for Christ by having more children than their adversaries. This self-proclaimed "patriarchy" movement, which likely numbers in the tens of thousands but which is growing exponentially, bases its arguments on Psalm 127: "Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They shall not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate." Quiverfull women commonly give birth to families of eight, 10 and 12 children, or more.

[...]

But there's a lot more to the Quiverfull conviction than you see on the Duggars' folksy show. In 1985, homeschooling leader Mary Pride wrote a foundational text for Quiverfull, "The Way Home: Beyond Feminism, Back to Reality." The book argued that family planning is a slippery slope, creating a “contraceptive mentality” that leads to abortion, and that feminism is incompatible with Christianity. As an antidote, Pride told Christians to reject women's liberation in exchange for the principles of submissive wifehood and prolific stay-at-home motherhood. The core ideology was a direct contradiction of Roe v. Wade: Women's bodies and lives did not belong to them, but to God and his plans for Christian revival.

Since 1985, Quiverfull has been thriving in the Southern and Sunbelt states. Although the conviction of "letting God plan your family" is not an official doctrine in many churches, there are signs of its acceptance in high places; the Rev. Albert Mohler, Theological Seminary president of the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention, argued, for example, that deliberate childlessness was "moral rebellion" against God.[/quote]
[url="http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/03/14/joyce_quiverfull/index.html"]http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/03/1...full/index.html[/url]

The article follows Garrison and her friend, Laura and the fallout as they leave the lifestyle. Particular to this thread, their post-Quiverfull view of Christianity.

[quote]The experience of Garrison's friend Laura -- a mother of 11 who collapsed under the demands of the lifestyle -- also helps explain why many unhappy women are afraid to turn their backs on the movement, when they'll be left with scant financial resources, years without work experience, and a dearth of references from a community that often shuns them. Laura was near suicide when Garrison helped her leave; her husband took physical custody of all 11 children, and her oldest daughter seamlessly assumed Laura's duties and tended to the younger children, who now view their mother as a backslider deceived by Satan. “She feels so incredibly angry, so ripped off, so used. Her new motto is 'Fuck God.'”

"Me and Laura both say we hope we don't end up as atheists," says Garrison, with a laugh, though she can't think of herself as anything else.

[...]

For Garrison, taking the Bible seriously is synonymous with the punishing claims of the Quiverfull movement. But having lost her faith in the Bible-proofed patriarchy principles she was taught, Garrison is unable to accept any of it anymore. "I don't think you can get equality out of the Bible. You can't get away from hierarchy, strictly defined roles for gender, authoritarianism, submission, dominating." Many believers might take issue with that, but to devout believers of Quiverfull, patriarchy is simply "the logical conclusion of what Scripture teaches," Garrison says.

As for herself, Garrison says, "I gave my life to Jesus, and he didn't do with it what I would have done.” She feels as though she's in free fall, her “feet planted firmly in midair,” as the evangelical luminary Francis Schaeffer once remarked of non-Christians.[/quote]


I wonder how many atheists vs devout such fundamentalism ultimately births.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Annelise' post='1720780' date='Mar 16 2009, 09.35']The article follows Garrison and her friend, Laura and the fallout as they leave the lifestyle. Particular to this thread, their post-Quiverfull view of Christianity.

I wonder how many atheists vs devout such fundamentalism ultimately births.[/quote]

You may find Vyckie and Laura's website interesting as well- they discuss in more detail the circumstances that led to their involvement with and escape from the movement.
[url="http://2spb.blogspot.com/"]http://2spb.blogspot.com/[/url]

I [i]know[/i] that it seems like I was somehow involved with every crazy fringe Christian movement out there... I'm glad I didn't give into this one, but it was definitely a presence in my life.

[Eponine]

[url="http://www.salon.com/mwt/excerpt/2009/03/18/unlikely_disciple/index.html?source=rss&aim=/mwt/excerpt"]http://www.salon.com/mwt/excerpt/2009/03/1...im=/mwt/excerpt[/url]

Interesting read from Salon about Liberty students going on a spring break missions trip for direct, in-your-face evangelism.

This is exactly how I remember things, although I wasn't in the same location. Now I feel embarrassed about how obnoxious we were. I lied about "leading someone to Christ" because everyone else claimed that they had and were celebrated as great missionaries for Jesus (but probably some were also lying for the same reasons). I feel guilty about that too.

[Kat]

Again, dragging this thread back to post a poll result.

Pew Forum poll on changing faith - section on entering and leaving the ranks of the unaffiliated

This poll mainly deals with changes in/out/between Catholicism, Protestant faiths (divided between mainline and evangelical) and Unaffiliated. There are some interesting differences in why people become unaffiliated, though.