Atheism

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote]Your contempt for religion in general and an individual’s belief in God isn’t a secret.[/quote]
Azor Ahai, EHK's questioning of the legitimacy of religious beliefs (doctrines, practices, etc.) should not be taken as a sign of contempt for religion.

[b]Another matter to keep in mind:[/b] Religion is not just a matter of whether or not something is fact or fiction (i.e. god), but it is also about culture. Religious communities are not just tied into an ontological belief, but they are also tied to a cultural community with its own set of practices and values. One of the reasons why there is a certain resistance against secularism, atheism, science, or whatever hot-button issue it may be is that it is perceived as an attack and destruction of a community's cultural values and norms. Churches and synagogues often serve as cultural community centers. When one looks at worship and sacraments, one realizes that the greater macrocosm outside the church is contained within the microcosm of worship. In worship, the community gathers around itself and rededicates itself in what it perceives as its common purpose. Churches are a place for youth, missions, and community service programs. Churches are often a place for weddings and funeral services. Churches contain the legacies and lineages of numerous families. Members of churches will visit the sick, the elderly, and the impoverished. Pastors may provide pastoral care and counseling (or point people to places where such services can be better attained). People discuss ethics and what it means to be a good member of the community. Many of these services can be provided elsewhere by professionals, specialists, and other community services, but churches frequently provide a central and common location for all of this to occur. While the common belief in God (and humanity's response to that belief) is at the centerpiece of all actions, there is this other culture surrounding that belief that is also at stake for religious communities. Red Sun was alluding to this earlier.

[Chalkobob]

How can an intelligent person not be religious I ask?

Think about it.

There's a big invisible man in the sky who hasn't done anything direct in our lifetime whom simply wants us to bow down and worship him or for the rest of eternity we will all be tortured more than our limited human minds can fathom... but he loves us.

I don't know how you couldn't believe it!?

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Chalkobob' post='1672875' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.09']How can an intelligent person not be religious I ask?

Think about it.

There's a big invisible man in the sky who hasn't done anything direct in our lifetime whom simply wants us to bow down and worship him or for the rest of eternity we will all be tortured more than our limited human minds can fathom... but he loves us.

I don't know how you couldn't believe it!?[/quote]

Is there a new person whose made a meaningful contribution to a thread in the past 2 months?

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='Chalkobob' post='1672875' date='Feb 4 2009, 00.09']I don't know how you couldn't believe it!?[/quote]

Well the Bible gives us several reasons - our own sinful nature and rejection of God's divine right to rule our lives is the big one, but we also collectively face spiritual attacks from the devil and God says that he hardens some people's hearts to the gospel - a difficult thing for us to come to terms with admittedly.

But oh wait, you weren't asking a serious question or seeking to engage seriously with other people's opinions you were just making a cheap rhetorical point. Sorry.

[JGP]

EHK: My 'history' was irrelevant to the discussion, not readily evident in anything I was saying, and completely unrelated to anything we were actually talking about. You're the one who apparently brought whatever personal baggage you had to the thread. And the bolded part is bullshit.

Me: You know, you do have me there. Except for the baggage part, and the part you think is bullshit.


EHK: Out of the clear blue sky while I'm trying to puzzle out why you think my belief needs yours (a suggestion likewise pulled out of your ass), you accuse me of 'proclamations of rampant idiocy'? And now you fail to see how that JUST MIGHT be intentionally insulting? Cram it up your ass.

Me: [aping John Stewart] Bwa? Your belief needs mine? Mine yours? Didn't I say it [i]didn't[/i] require it? I think I can maybe see how you might've found it insulting if that's the way you took it. Where I'm failing is understanding how you took it that way. Quote what I actually said instead, how about.


EHK: What the hell is your game kid? Are you trying to be a dick for no apparent reason? Do you plan on keeping this passive-aggressive bullshit going all day?

Me: I’m not trying to be a dick, but this tear has suddenly taken on very intriguing proportions. To you I’m being deliberately insulting in a passive-aggressive manner; to me you’re misconstruing what I’ve said and are now compounding it by putting words in my mouth. I mustn’t be communicating very well, or you’re aiming for a scrap. I mean, if you wanted a retraction you'd be trying to convince me right now instead of failing to get beneath my skin.

At the moment I’m sitting on the fence. If my opinion offends you, it goes to reason that you’d care enough to change it or at least help to clear the air. If you want to continue as you are, by all means, but you might as well bring it to PM to save everyone else the trauma of what most likely will end up being one hell of a disagreement. Or maybe we'll work it out, or, we can just agree to let it slide--

Except you still haven’t answered the question. If logic is your basis of non-belief what's more logical as preceding the bb then?

Nothing or infinity?

[center]~*~[/center]


[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1672694' date='Feb 3 2009, 14.54']Azor Ahai, EHK's questioning of the legitimacy of religious beliefs (doctrines, practices, etc.) should not be taken as a sign of contempt for religion.[/quote]

Of course not. Most right minded [read: skeptical] people encourage questioning and questioning everything. I do recall some tilts he and I have had, over the years and definitely within the last four months or so iirc, where EHK was quite open about what he thought about religion and people who believe in God. That I might have to search out our last face off and actually quote some of the things he said is somewhat agonizing-- but I will if I have to. Surely I'm not the only one who recalls those, but I don't need anyone's backing on this as he's spoken for himself. Granted, there's been an about face in the previous thread just closed, I'll give him that. But 2 - 1 only = 1, not 0. I'm prepared to revise my judgment however. I'm not [i]damning[/i] the guy. How could I?

To get back on topic:

Couldn't agree more about your thoughts on the cultural role of religious communities. It's the main reasoning behind why I think that aspect of religion is worthy of respect no matter what you choose to believe.


ETA: I need to finish my invoicing and head home. I'm hopeful that tomorrow will be interesting.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1672694' date='Feb 3 2009, 16.54']Religious communities are not just tied into an ontological belief, but they are also tied to a cultural community with its own set of practices and values. One of the reasons why there is a certain resistance against secularism, atheism, science, or whatever hot-button issue it may be is that it is perceived as an attack and destruction of a community's cultural values and norms. Churches and synagogues often serve as cultural community centers. [etc][/quote]

This is actually very troubling to me as an atheist. Probably it's a subject for a more personal, less philosophical thread, but I see this problem come up over and over again with those who have left the church. They have no one with whom to group together for a common purpose, and have trouble finding a community with a charitable/ethical/moral center. Depending on their location, they may be attacked as someone trying to tear down society.

I've heard gay people take the stance that they wouldn't have been gay if they could have helped it. That as a tormented, rejected, humiliated teenager, they would have chosen being straight and "normal" rather than continuing to be a social outcast. That's how I feel about atheism. Anyway I feel this has gotten away from the (at least attempted) logical tone of the previous threads, so continue...

[Meili]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1672895' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.28']Couldn't agree more about your thoughts on the cultural role of religious communities. It's the main reasoning behind why I think that aspect of religion is worthy of respect no matter what you choose to believe.[/quote]

And the cultural role is the thing I respect least of all their contributions. I'll defer to Eponine's example of a gay person pressured past breaking to remain silent and pretend to fit in with the 'moral' correctness of the community. I'll use women as an example as well, who are clearly made to live as if they are inferior to men not only in the current lives of a few hundred million people alive today but in the religious documents of Christianity, Judiasm and Islam themselves.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1672943' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.29']This is actually very troubling to me as an atheist. Probably it's a subject for a more personal, less philosophical thread, but I see this problem come up over and over again with those who have left the church. They have no one with whom to group together for a common purpose, and have trouble finding a community with a charitable/ethical/moral center. Depending on their location, they may be attacked as someone trying to tear down society.

I've heard gay people take the stance that they wouldn't have been gay if they could have helped it. That as a tormented, rejected, humiliated teenager, they would have chosen being straight and "normal" rather than continuing to be a social outcast. That's how I feel about atheism. Anyway I feel this has gotten away from the (at least attempted) logical tone of the previous threads, so continue...[/quote]Humanist churches? Although I have never checked one out myself, you should probably look into local humanist chapters. I think that humanism is a far more positive-position atheistic belief system. I do think that some humanist societies should not spend their times so much "attacking the evils of religion" as they should on presenting what positive services they have to offer within a community or for families as well as their own ethical stances on issues. Also I would be curious as to the extent to which humanist societies would be willing to work or cooperate with theistic churches and vice versa. But some of what I listed actually is provided by the [url="http://www.humanist-society.org/"]Humanist Society[/url], but I am not sure if it is as naturally developed as it is in theistic churches.

[quote name='Meili' post='1672963' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.55']And the cultural role is the thing I respect least of all their contributions. I'll defer to Eponine's example of a gay person pressured past breaking to remain silent and pretend to fit in with the 'moral' correctness of the community. I'll use women as an example as well, who are clearly made to live as if they are inferior to men not only in the current lives of a few hundred million people alive today but in the religious documents of Christianity, Judiasm and Islam themselves.[/quote]Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just see key buzz words in the posts and then respond based on that?

[Deluge]

[quote name='Eponine' post='1672943' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.29']This is actually very troubling to me as an atheist. Probably it's a subject for a more personal, less philosophical thread, but I see this problem come up over and over again with those who have left the church. They have no one with whom to group together for a common purpose, and have trouble finding a community with a charitable/ethical/moral center. Depending on their location, they may be attacked as someone trying to tear down society.

I've heard gay people take the stance that they wouldn't have been gay if they could have helped it. That as a tormented, rejected, humiliated teenager, they would have chosen being straight and "normal" rather than continuing to be a social outcast. That's how I feel about atheism. Anyway I feel this has gotten away from the (at least attempted) logical tone of the previous threads, so continue...[/quote]
I definitely know what you're talking about. I've heard it suggested that non-believers in America are somewhat jaded in regards to our society, and so are reluctant to participate in a lot of charities, causes and other sorts of community stuff. I've spent a lot of time thinking about what needs to be done, and I guess that the most sensible thing is to just get more involved in our communities, and take any sort of rejection from religious people in stride. Show them that the godless aren't devoid of morals, you know?

[Meili]

[quote name='Matrim Fox Cauthon' post='1672968' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.06']Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just see key buzz words in the posts and then respond based on that?[/quote]
Did you read who I was replying to? I saw and agree with your opinion that religion plays a gigantic role in how a community is shaped and what rituals (marriage, funerals) are carried out, even by non-religious people. I agree religious people often see non-belief and rationalism as people insulting the way they live their life. Azor said he respected the cultural role, I said I did not. I don't respect any aspect of it actually, including the harmless ones you mentioned.

But when you gave your broad description of what role religion plays in the community, you didn't specify whether you thinked it is necessary or not so I wasn't disagreeing with you on any point. You just said 'keep [it] in mind' and then you sat on the fence waiting for others to weigh in. So what could I even be disagreeing with you on then?

[C S]

[quote name='Meili' post='1672963' date='Feb 3 2009, 19.55']And the cultural role is the thing I respect least of all their contributions. I'll defer to Eponine's example of a gay person pressured past breaking to remain silent and pretend to fit in with the 'moral' correctness of the community. I'll use women as an example as well, who are clearly made to live as if they are inferior to men not only in the current lives of a few hundred million people alive today but in the religious documents of Christianity, Judiasm and Islam themselves.[/quote]
Off the top of my head, I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of cultures that have existed throughout history have taken issue with homosexuality. I'd say a similar number have practiced oppression based on gender. Certainly, the Abrahamic faiths don't have a monopoly here. Are you certain that these situations are actually caused by religion, or are they more of a reflection of the culture from which the religion sprang? Just a thought.

[Eponine]

I've never been part of a humanist chapter, but just doing charity work does not fill the hole that church leaves behind. I don't know if people who have grown up non-religious find this to be the case, I suspect not. MFC did a good job describing all the roles that the church can play in people's lives, and all this because they have one consuming thing in common.

As people brought up in the previous threads, atheists don't have that one thing in common. Not believing in God is not the center of my life, the way that belief in God is the center of life for many religious people. Maybe having a community that fills all your needs based on just one commonality isn't even healthy, but it is undeniably convenient.

I've been part of or at least a lurker on many ex-Christian internet groups. I understand that people need to have a place that they can rant and get out all their hurt and anger that they may be unable to express in real life. But I'm kind of disturbed by how many people just stay on and seem to focus their new life around bashing Christianity. Oddly, it does seem to bring people together the way the church used to. Of course it's impossible to tell how large a community that really represents out of all former Christians, but I still don't find it to be a good thing.

And although this may sound selfish, it's easy to tell someone to get involved with giving of themselves, but the church also gives back with support for its members (well sometimes). What gives support for us? As far as I can see from internet searches, there's not much professional counseling directed toward people leaving religion (although there's some for those leaving cults, but that is just as likely to be Christian as not). I was going to make a separate post about this, and I still can, but it seems relevant to this discussion too. [url="http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/124174/?page=entire"]http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustic...74/?page=entire[/url] It's about how women are instructed by pastors to stay in abusive relationships because their role is submission. We leave religion totally broken, and we have no support on the other side.

[Meili]

[quote name='Craster's Son' post='1673012' date='Feb 3 2009, 20.58']Are you certain that these situations are actually caused by religion, or are they more of a reflection of the culture from which the religion sprang? Just a thought.[/quote]
Some seem to come from it, some don't and none I am 100% certain of. I am certain that religion currently keeps them in play though. Issues like Homosexuality being morally wrong and a mortal sin are actively pushed directly from the holy books. But you asked which came first, not which is causing it now. Wasn't homosexuality much more accepted in Greek and Roman socities? I know in Greek cities it was pretty common and accepted and they had more gods than all the monotheistic ones combined. So in some cases, one religion permits it, some don't. Evolution wouldn't have pushed the human species towards it so it likely had taboos against it well before religion though, but clearly once humanity started thinking up entire religions, we also could have realized it posed no threat as far as ensuring our survival goes.

[Guest Raidne]

Ep, the philosophy classes and related groups I had in college fulfilled a purpose very much like religion for me. I'm sure that's not how it is with all atheists, or anything, but finding a group that shares common beliefs to fulfill the role of talking about how to be good people can be done, even amongst people who have different philosophies. They're still similar enough to have a discussion that's satisfying and practical ethics and all that stuff. And it's positive - it's not about bashing religion. Find yourself a reading group on Kantian ethics or something. Act only in a way that is universalizeable. That works for me.

[i]Those[/i] are the kind of people I think of when I think of atheists. It's not the center of their life - they just don't believe in God. So they've moved on to reason-based ethical systems. The church-hating would have been unwelcome and also, well, thought to be boring.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Azor Ahai' post='1672895' date='Feb 3 2009, 18.28']Bwa? Your belief needs mine? Mine yours? Didn't I say it [i]didn't[/i] require it? I think I can maybe see how you might've found it insulting if that's the way you took it. Where I'm failing is understanding how you took it that way. Quote what I actually said instead, how about.[/quote]

You said [i]"my belief doesn't require yours, yours shouldn't require mine or any others."[/i] There's an implicit suggestion in that that my belief does in fact somehow requires yours. I was baffled by the suggestion because in no way is that the case. I said it was weird (and incorrect). If there was a misunderstanding, that would have been the point for you to clarify. (or to ask for clarification from me) Instead out of fucking nowhere you accuse me of spouting proclamations of rampant idiocy. Do you not see how that was out of place, how that just might be a fucking problem? Seriously, what was going through your head? "I'm not sure what he's saying, did he misread what I said?, well, I'll just call him a fucking idiot and call it a day..."

What kind of reaction were you expecting?

[quote]I’m not trying to be a dick[/quote]

Out of the fucking blue: [i]"You have no problem whatsoever issuing proclamations of rampant idiocy..." [/i]
Not trying to be a dick? Really?

[quote]Except you still haven’t answered the question. If logic is your basis of non-belief what's more logical as preceding the bb then?

Nothing or infinity?[/quote]

I have no opinion on the matter. I haven't looked at it enough to intelligently offer an opinion on it. I have no interest in studying up in order to offer an opinion on it.


[quote]where EHK was quite open about what he thought about religion and people who believe in God.[/quote]

Even if what I said in past threads was as bad as you remember, what the fuck does it matter? None of that was evident in my statements immediately preceding our exchange nor during our actual exchange. You brought that baggage to the table, not me. It was irrelevant and completely out of place in the discussion.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Fascinating discussion, folks. I've read all three threads so far and I'd like to see it continue.

Please, therefore, tone down the personal insults.

[/MOD]

[Meili]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1673047' date='Feb 3 2009, 21.42'][i]Those[/i] are the kind of people I think of when I think of atheists. It's not the center of their life - they just don't believe in God. So they've moved on to reason-based ethical systems. The church-hating would have been unwelcome and also, well, thought to be boring.[/quote]
Someone though has to stand up and call it as it is though. We can sit back and smugly think how civil we are and how naive they are while they aggressively go after the poor on TV, or the education system, door to door preaching, community to community etc. or someone can speak up firmly and say enough. A non-believer doesn't even have to be a tenth as aggresive as a passive believer does, just simply speaking up would be enough. They don't have to build a billboard, a building or even make little clever bumper stickers, just stand up and say I don't think the influence religion has in the community is remotely as tolerant as claimed to be. I see some kids feeling so much grief and guilt for simple things like getting an erection or thinking a guilty thought, hating the very presence of a homosexual or a woman teacher having authority over them, people being raised to hate, people being raised to judge others and people hiding their feeling for fear of being humiliated and made a pariah that it does make me angry. Not in a militant way but annoyed nonetheless.

Although I don't belong to any 'hate religion, hate churches' groups, don't associate myself with any and I certainly don't hate any myself, I can see how some people would group together almost like an AA meeting as far as talking about the harm they experienced among themselves as either former religious people or harm done to them by religious people, talking in an almost therapeutic way.

ETA; half of first paragraph was cut off, readded

[Guest Raidne]

I can see why they might too, for sure, but I don't think it's really about atheism. It's about Christianity. Those people might go on to become Buddhists or whatever, I have no idea. Atheism is about a lot more than being anti-Christian.

[C S]

[quote name='Meili' post='1673030' date='Feb 3 2009, 21.25']Some seem to come from it, some don't and none I am 100% certain of. I am certain that religion currently keeps them in play though. Issues like Homosexuality being morally wrong and a mortal sin are actively pushed directly from the holy books. But you asked which came first, not which is causing it now. Wasn't homosexuality much more accepted in Greek and Roman socities? I know in Greek cities it was pretty common and accepted and they had more gods than all the monotheistic ones combined. So in some cases, one religion permits it, some don't. Evolution wouldn't have pushed the human species towards it so it likely had taboos against it well before religion though, but clearly once humanity started thinking up entire religions, we also could have realized it posed no threat as far as ensuring our survival goes.[/quote]
Yes, the words are there, along with many others that are followed or ignored depending on the latest interpretation of each particular flavor of faith. Nevertheless, are you certain that religion is what keeps them in play. From what I have seen in my country (USA), homosexuality is gaining more acceptance amongst the faithful as it gains acceptance in society as a whole. Admittedly, the religious community moves a little slower than the greater society.

I believe that you are correct that homosexuality was more accepted in both ancient Greek or Roman society, but I was aware of this when I made my educated guess.

I would not agree that it is clear that evolution selects against homosexuality, but I won't go there for fear of taking this discussion to far off topic.

[C S]

[quote name='Meili' post='1673059' date='Feb 3 2009, 22.01']Someone though has to stand up and call it as it is though. We can sit back and smugly think how civil we are and how naive they are while they aggressively go after the poor on TV, or the education system, door to door preaching, community to community etc. or someone can speak up firmly and say enough. A non-believer doesn't even have to be a tenth as aggresive as a passive believer does, just simply speaking up would be enough. They don't have to build a billboard, a building or even make little clever bumper stickers, just stand up and say I don't think the influence religion has in the community is remotely as tolerant as claimed to be. I see some kids feeling so much grief and guilt for simple things like getting an erection or thinking a guilty thought, hating the very presence of a homosexual or a woman teacher having authority over them, people being raised to hate, people being raised to judge others and people hiding their feeling for fear of being humiliated and made a pariah that it does make me angry. Not in a militant way but annoyed nonetheless...[/quote]
Though I am a Christian, I take issue with many of the same people that you do. The people that you wish to oppose do not represent Christianity as a whole, though they represent a large and very vocal part of it. I am quite certain that a large number of Christians agree with me at least in part. Otherwise, the last election would have had a different ending.