The grand Faceless Men conspiracy theory

[Toe]

Reply to Artanaro

Regarding why Varys is fat ultimately this is in my interpretation the shape Varys decided was appropriate. A stereotypical eunuch is fat and effeminate so such an identity and body creates the least suspicion.

You are of course right that he keeps records in some other place. Also must have extensive lodgings elsewhere if he uses at least fifty children as implied by the conversation with Illyrio. A fat perfumed eunuch may likely keep food and perfume in such places. But I would argue that he would also keep some food and snacks in his sleeping quarters and have some better drink that water. Let us assume the reasonable assumption that FM must eat as much as other persons with similar body size. It is not difficult to be fat and eat relatively quickly and without pleasure. Just eat lots of for example butter. No need to keep lots of snacks and eat constantly.

Regarding perfume, it is not stated that there were none in his quarters so there may well have been some together with his clothing. However, there is also the possibility that this is a part of a FM abilities. Rugen reeks of sweat. People in general smell quite differently so a good disguise includes the ability to change such body smells.

The idea that Varys would never sleep in or often use his official quarters to avoid assassination is more interesting. Although there are problems such that a spymaster is not unlikely to called upon at irregular hours. Such as by the small council or the king. Likely there are now and then important news arriving after office hours by those of his spies who do not know about the little birds. Varys must decide if these news are something that can wait until the next day or not. If he is almost never at his quarters there will be problems and suspicions.

More generally, you did not prove by "deductive" reasoning any logical contradictions or factual errors in my theory. You gave some alternative explanations to my explanations for a few events. Your reasoning is as "inductive" as mine. I would argue that my explanations for these few events is more likely than yours explanations as per above.

More importantly, my theory provides a logically consistent explanation of, for example, all of Varys's and Jaqen H'ghar's actions. If there is not a simpler theory explaining all of the things my theory explain and there are no logical or factual errors in the theory, then this theory should be accepted until such errors are found or a simpler theory arrives.

[Marakesh]

The first problem is that you could make a lot of theories using this method. I have noticed the author sometimes gets stuck on a certain phrase, idea, or thing like a type of food for several chapters in a book, so its hardly proof if you can cite things like using the very common words "no one" to answer a question, or some of the other connections you make. Euron's belief in his horn doesn't seem to gel with Dany's assertions that dragons have free will, and dragons apparently have a language, so they aren't stupid. In fact they seem to be the incarnation of the forces of fire, even the alchemists power grows as they do. What kind of book would it be if these creatures could be controlled and used like a muppet? That would just be lame. So, am I going to go with the connection that there are a couple horns mentioned in a few sentences of the text, or do I go with the style the series has had up to this point?

And that's the main thing, it would ruin the style of the series. ASoIaF has read like a history with real people doing what real people do, not a high fantasy series where a group of evil guys go around trying to invoke absolute darkness on the world cause they're with team villain, the dark side of the force, or serve the shadow of mordor while the good guys look for the magic mcguffin to prevent this evilness from happening. There are evil people but they act the way actual evil people do. They're neurotic or delusional like Cersei, or self centered and egotistical like Littlefinger, not because they want some abstract dark side to win. I could see the faceless men having much more to them that what we have seen, but I would be very disappointed if there's some all encompassing grand conspiracy like this.

[SFDanny]

[quote name='Toe' post='1684247' date='Feb 12 2009, 10.39']The FM is a death cult ..... The answer is to help their natural allies, the Others, take over the world and exterminate humanity.[/quote]

Pardon the clipping of your post, but I disagree with this basic premise. The Faceless Men do celebrate the release from pain and burdens that the "gift" of death brings, but that is almost the opposite of what the Others do. We know the Others turn the dead into their minions to fight for their cause, where the FM have no record of this kind of activity - your assumptions of what they do with the bodies of the dead to the contrary. In fact, if we take them at their word such making of "undead" chattel would seem to be an anathema to the FM. The only other religion that does the same as the Others in the use of the dead is their "rival" the Red God of Melisandre and Thoros. Given that, it makes as much sense to view the FM as the true opponents of the Others as it does to cast them as the Others' natural allies. The same can be said of the Undying ones. They would appear to be the opposite of what the FM want in their quest for everlasting life - hardly suitable allies.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1684247' date='Feb 13 2009, 02.39'][indent][i]"We bring the gift of death." [/i]
[i]The kindly man[/i][/indent]
[b]The Faceless Men[/b]
We are told that the Faceless Men (FM) originated among the slaves of Valyria. The kindly man implies that they killed their masters which would seem to [color="#FF0000"]implicate them in the Doom of Valyria[/color]. The dragonlords of Valyria were powerful sorcerers. Marwyn has stated that all Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The slaves lived in horrible fiery mines plagued by dragonlike firewyrms. It seems natural that[color="#FF0000"] they would have turned to opposing cold, anti-dragon magic[/color]. It is difficult to say if there really exist a "Great Other" god or if there simply is a cold/ice/death magic force somewhat like the Dark Side in Star Wars. My personal opinion is the later but for the purpose of this theory it does not matter. The slaves needed the help of a powerful force to be able to defeat the powerful dragonlord fire sorcerers of Valyria and the [color="#FF0000"]opposing force/god is the logical choice[/color].[/quote]

All the stuff in red is total speculation, without any textual support.

[quote]The FM is a death cult. The gods in their temple seem to be the various local death gods like the Stranger. Arianne has heard that in Qohor followers of the red priests, opponents of the Great Other, had rioted and tried to burn down the Black Goat which the kindly man says is one of the local names of Many-Faced God like the Stranger is in Westeros. The FM see death as a gift and an end to suffering. The kindly man describes the world as a "vale of tears and pain". But if we take this to its logical conclusion, something probably only a very small, select group even among the followers of the Many-Faced God know, then the "gift" should be given to everyone. Again this fits with them using/following the death/ice force. So how can this be achieved? How to kill humanity? The answer is to help [color="#FF0000"]their natural allies, the Others,[/color] take over the world and exterminate humanity.[/quote] SFDanny's dealt with this one already.


[quote]In order the free the Others the FM must bring down the Wall. This is likely no easy task considering the many millennia it has existed. According to the legend of the Night's King even when the Night's Watch seem to have been at least partially controlled by persons friendly to the Others this could apparently not be done. So how to do this? [color="#FF8C00"]A logical solution would be that magical ice requires magical fire or in other words dragonfire.[/color][/quote] This bit about dragonfire and the wall is plausible but the rest about Valyria is unsupported.

[quote]There is an interesting interpretation regarding Mance's horn and Euron's horn. The Horn of Winter is supposed to have the ability to bring down the Wall. [color="#FF0000"]The horn that Mance found is very similar in appearance to Euron's horn. [/color]So yes, the Horn of Winter can bring down the Wall as Mance said. But indirectly, by controlling dragons.[/quote] Factually wrong. Euron's Horn and the Horn of Joramun look completely different:

"The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelledIt was a terrible sound, a wail of pain and fury that seemed to burn the ear."
[...]
"And now the glyphs were burning brightly, every line and letter shimmering with white fire"
[...]
"The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes."

[quote]So why did the FM not immediately after the Doom bring some dragons to Wall? Probably because at this time its defenses were at full strength. Even after the Wall has fallen the Others can be defeated as happened as when they tried before the Wall was built. So the FM needed time. Time to weaken the Night's Watch, time to remove knowledge about dragons and how to fight the Others, time to make themselves and the Others stronger.

So they allowed some dragons to be saved and brought to Dragonstone. When the memory of the dangers of dragons has faded they allowed the War of Conquest to take place. That the memory had to fade and be erased can explain why the Targaryens did not attempt a conquest immediately after the Doom.[/quote] ... and then they made the Fossaway family split apart because they liked Green apples!

This bit above is classic crackpottery - the omnipotent Faceless Men direct the entire course of Westerosi history yet can't get someone to dig up a horn and give it a blow because...some dudes in black standing on a wall?

[quote]More time passed with the FM growing stronger and the Night's Watch weaker according to plan. The FM have a business of killing powerful men. We know the FM can use magic.[color="#FF0000"] We also know that the lifeforce of the powerful can be used for powerful magic[/color]. Perfect combination for the FM. The FM received money and reasons for killing the powerful whose lifeforce they can use for powerful magic. [color="#FF0000"]At least in Braavos they also seem to be collecting corpses which could possibly be used for a Wight army[/color].[/quote] Rh'llorists have used lifeforce magic, there's been no mention of the FM doing the same thing - their magic as described in the AFfC Arya chapters revolves around illusion and more mundane things like good old poison. There isn't any mention of cold or ice or wights or corpse collection.

[quote][b]Varys[/b]
The FM with their shapeshifting ability are the perfect spies and infiltrators. It would be preferable if they had a man at the center of power in the small council. Even better would be to know and control the flow of information. In short, Varys is the perfect candidate.[/quote] Why do they need Varys in they're so good and spying and infiltration? [quote]Now Varys has told various stories about his background. Some of this information may well be "correct". We know that the FM can take over other persons' appearance, job, and even fool their friends.[color="#FF0000"] Like Jaqen H’ghar did with Pate. Maybe this even involves taking over some part of the killed persons' memory.[/color] So a FM may have killed Varys and taken over his identity at some stage in his life.[/quote] Bzzt. Jaqen-Pate doesn't retain Pate's behaviour - he refers to himself as "Pate, like the pig boy" when talking to Sam while original Pate hated the epithet.

[quote]Varys's quarters and lifestyle seem to be extremely ascetic with only water in his flagon and a stone bed. Does not fit with a perfumed fat eunuch, as Tyrion notes, but fits well with a member of a death cult who finds little pleasure in this world. Arya also has a stone bed in Braavos.[/quote] Occam's razor attack, go! Why would you assume a relationship between stone beds and membership of a death cult? Can't Varys just be an ascetic? He takes pleasure in fooling people with his powdered eunuch display and reveals it as an act to Ned and Tyrion - why do that if he's meant to be an infiltrator.

[quote]Varys probably did use small children to spy. To quote the kindly man, "Why use a spell, where mummer’s tricks will serve?” This also likely applies to his disguises. But I think some cases of his disguise as the prison guard Rugen who over a long period was in contact with other guards is hard to explain by natural means and medieval technology. At least when Eddard could feel the Rugen's stubble with his fingers and did not think it a disguise. Yes, Varys said he was a mummer, but mummers at least in traditional plays did not use elaborate disguises but at most stereotypical masks.

Varys has stated that he hates magic. But we know that the FM train very hard to be good liars.[/quote] Crackpot technique #2 - if someone's testimony completely contradicts your theory they must be lying. Also, there is no textual evidence of the limits or otherwise of Westerosi costume effects technology.

[quote]While thus everything Varys says, and especially everything regarding himself and his motives, should be viewed as suspect, maybe somewhat more insight can be gained from his general philosophical outlook which seems not incompatible with that of death cult seeing little value in the world:
"You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life.” He glanced around the cell. “When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why.”"
"The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that’s true, Lord Eddard, tell me . . . why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"[/quote] This isn't particularly FM-y at all, it's a simple commentary on the cruelty of the feudal system. Also, nice cherrypicking. That's crackpot theory lesson #1

[quote]Also, there is an interesting double meaning from this statement where peace can be interpreted¨in several ways. “Your own ends. What ends are those, Lord Varys?” “Peace,” Varys replied without hesitation." Another possible ironic double meaning is the reference to the Others riding ice spiders. No trace of such beings have been seen but Varys is sometimes called the Spider.[/quote] Crackpot lesson #3 - assume that they're saying what you want them to say. Also, Gendry is sometimes called the Aurochs And Sam Ser Piggy... Could he be Pate?

That's enough for one day.

[Toe]

[quote name='Marakesh' post='1687935' date='Feb 16 2009, 00.00']The first problem is that you could make a lot of theories using this method. I have noticed the author sometimes gets stuck on a certain phrase, idea, or thing like a type of food for several chapters in a book, so its hardly proof if you can cite things like using the very common words "no one" to answer a question, or some of the other connections you make. Euron's belief in his horn doesn't seem to gel with Dany's assertions that dragons have free will, and dragons apparently have a language, so they aren't stupid. In fact they seem to be the incarnation of the forces of fire, even the alchemists power grows as they do. What kind of book would it be if these creatures could be controlled and used like a muppet? That would just be lame. So, am I going to go with the connection that there are a couple horns mentioned in a few sentences of the text, or do I go with the style the series has had up to this point?

And that's the main thing, it would ruin the style of the series. ASoIaF has read like a history with real people doing what real people do, not a high fantasy series where a group of evil guys go around trying to invoke absolute darkness on the world cause they're with team villain, the dark side of the force, or serve the shadow of mordor while the good guys look for the magic mcguffin to prevent this evilness from happening. There are evil people but they act the way actual evil people do. They're neurotic or delusional like Cersei, or self centered and egotistical like Littlefinger, not because they want some abstract dark side to win. I could see the faceless men having much more to them that what we have seen, but I would be very disappointed if there's some all encompassing grand conspiracy like this.[/quote]
Of course "no one" is not an uncommon phrase. But I think GRRM is a good enough author to be very careful with his use of words. Compare with JH's reply to Pate's question: "Who are you?" "A stranger. No one. Truly." Of course, GRRM is fond of red herrings, so one must always be careful with interpretations. If my theory only relied on this it would be weak. But I think my theory explains many different mysteries and gives consistent explanations for the actions and motives of many different characters.

Could you please state where Dany says that dragons have free will? I see little evidence that dragons have a sophisticated language or high intelligence. Of course many animals like birds have a form of communication but this does not mean a very high intelligence. Yes, Dany can issue commands to them. But this is possible with dogs also. All the descriptions regarding the dragons from Valyria or the Targaryen describe them as very dangerous but useful animals. Not as talking or intelligent.

I feel exactly the opposite regarding the style of the series. For me there was a strange disconnect with the series. Most of the series seem to be about the politics and family affairs of the high nobility. Then there are also the Others who seem to have very little connection with all of this intriguing. We have now reached more than the halfway point of the series and the Others are still not really important to anyone south of the Wall. They will apparently not become important in ADWD either since there are no news of an invasion in a AFFC. Why name the series "Ice and fire" if the Others will only become really important and connected to most of the characters and the main political intrigues in book six out of seven? In contrast, in my theory the Others and their allies have been behind most of the political intrigues from the very beginning.

[Toe]

Regarding that the motivation of the FM is unrealisticlly evil I should clarify this a bit. If an animal is in pain and cannot be treated, then it is accepted that it should be killed out of mercy. Similarly, at one point the Hound kills a dying and suffering man out of mercy. Now, if you consider that life as whole is mostly suffering, then death is preferable. This is not actually an uncommon view. In Buddhism life is viewed as mostly or only as suffering. In Buddhism however you cannot escape this with death. If you kill others or yourself you will very likely end up in much worse position in the next life due to Karma and reincarnation. Similarly, there are ascetic views in Christianity who view life as mostly suffering. But again, suicide or murder will most likely mean that you end up in hell. But if you do no have such views regarding the afterlife punishment for murder then the logical and kind thing is to help all of the suffering humanity to leave this painful life. Just like you would with a suffering animal.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688134' date='Feb 16 2009, 06.30']Could you please state where Dany says that dragons have free will?[/quote]
Possibly this:

[i]"He will not come," Kraznys said.
"There is a reason. A dragon is no slave."
[/i]
[quote]I see little evidence that dragons have a sophisticated language or high intelligence.[/quote]
What does that have to do with free will?

[Toe]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1688140' date='Feb 16 2009, 06.49']What does that have to do with free will?[/quote]
There relationship between intelligence and free will is possibly a deep philosophical one. However, I was responding to claim that "dragons apparently have a language, so they aren't stupid."

[Toe]

[quote name='SFDanny' post='1688032' date='Feb 16 2009, 02.35']Pardon the clipping of your post, but I disagree with this basic premise. The Faceless Men do celebrate the release from pain and burdens that the "gift" of death brings, but that is almost the opposite of what the Others do. We know the Others turn the dead into their minions to fight for their cause, where the FM have no record of this kind of activity - your assumptions of what they do with the bodies of the dead to the contrary. In fact, if we take them at their word such making of "undead" chattel would seem to be an anathema to the FM. The only other religion that does the same as the Others in the use of the dead is their "rival" the Red God of Melisandre and Thoros. Given that, it makes as much sense to view the FM as the true opponents of the Others as it does to cast them as the Others' natural allies. The same can be said of the Undying ones. They would appear to be the opposite of what the FM want in their quest for everlasting life - hardly suitable allies.[/quote]
Wights would only be a problem for the FM is they see them as being sentinent. If they are viewed as mindless robots then there is no problem. The Wights seem to be completely fearless and unaffected by painful wounds which supports the later view. Even if Wights really feel pain, then remember that Wights seem to decay after a while like the hand taken to KL. Some temporary pain would always be accepted for the greater good of always ending all pain.

Regarding the Undying Ones, I do not seem them as identical to the FM. Remember that we have seen a person in Qarth using fire magic for an impressive show while his accomplices pick the pockets of the onlookers. Likely not related to Asshai or the Red God. So similarly the Undying Ones may use cold/death magic to extend their life without necessarily sharing the FM goals. Still possible that the FM may use them as pawns.

I will mention another possibility. If Varys/Qyburn uses death/cold magic to extend his own life this would seem to be hypocritical. Of course, hypocrisy is not uncommon in religion. Religious leader may claim and even believe that they may do what is forbidden to their followers. Of course only to bring about a greater good. So if Varys must extend his own life this would only be temporarily and for the greater overall good of all.

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688062' date='Feb 16 2009, 03.36']Factually wrong. Euron's Horn and the Horn of Joramun look completely different:[/quote]

"The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with
both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with
ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled."

"a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black. . . . . . horn.""The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes."

So both horns are black, of similar size, and have bands of gold with symbols. Jon thinks the symbols are Valyrian glyphs, Victarion thinks they are runes. Not unlikely the less educated Victarion is mistaken. Looks very similar.

I will reply to the rest later.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688166' date='Feb 16 2009, 23.47']"The horn he blew was shiny black and twisted, and taller than a man as he held it with
both hands. It was bound about with bands of red gold and dark steel, incised with
ancient Valyrian glyphs that seemed to glow redly as the sound swelled."

"a bronze-headed spear lying beside that big black. . . . . . horn.""The horn was huge, eight feet along the curve and so wide at the mouth that he could have put his arm inside up to the elbow. If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived. At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow, and graven with runes."

So both horns are black, of similar size, and have bands of gold with symbols. Jon thinks the symbols are Valyrian glyphs, Victarion thinks they are runes. Not unlikely the less educated Victarion is mistaken. Looks very similar.

I will reply to rest later.[/quote]

The Horn of Joramun has the Runes, which aren't glyphs - the latter are pictorial characters and frequently ideographs. The glyphs of Valyria are not the runes of the First Men - they're two seperate languages and there is no textual support for their being identical.

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688170' date='Feb 16 2009, 08.53']Uh, the Horn of Joramun has the Runes, which aren't glyphs. The glyphs of Valyria are not the runes of the First Men.[/quote]

Right. However, everything else like size, color, and bands fits nicely. Both men were not very close to the horns so I doubt they could exactly tell what the symbols are.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688173' date='Feb 16 2009, 23.58']Old school Victarion who distrusts masters would likely not recognize Valyrian glyphs if he saw them. He sees them a similar to what he knows. Thus runes. Certainly not stated these are runes "of the First Men". Everything else like size, color, and bands fits nicely.[/quote]

The bands doesn't fit - Eurons is steel banded with red gold. Runes and glyphs are different forms of script, and Euron clearly identifies them as Valyrian glyphs. Runes are of the First Men, they're the only people in the book known to use them.

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688175' date='Feb 16 2009, 09.02']The bands doesn't fit - Eurons is steel banded with red gold. Runes and glyphs are different forms of script, and Euron clearly identifies them as Valyrian glyphs. Runes are of the First Men, they're the only people in the book known to use them.[/quote]

Right. However, everything else like size, color, and gold bands fits nicely. Both men were not very close to the horns so I doubt they could exactly tell what the symbols are. Victarion is not an educated man with his distrust of the new masters so I doubt his ability to recognize ancient symbols.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688177' date='Feb 17 2009, 00.06']Right. However, everything else like size, color, and gold bands fits nicely. Both men were not very close to the horns so I doubt they could exactly tell what the symbols are. Victarion is not an educated man with his distrust of the new masters so I doubt his ability to recognize ancient symbols.[/quote]

You're backpedalling now. The text clearly lays out that they are different horns, with differnt banding and different inscriptions.

EDIT: Think about it. Red gold. Black steel. Glowing red glyphs. - that's [i]all [/i]Valyria man

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688183' date='Feb 16 2009, 09.11']You're backpedalling now. The text clearly lays out that they are different horns, with differnt banding and different inscriptions.

EDIT: Think about it. Red gold. Black steel. Glowing red glyphs. - that's [i]all [/i]Valyria man[/quote]

Both horns are of similar size. Both are black. Both have bands of gold. Both have symbols on the bands. Red gold and brown gold are similar colors. Magical glowing probably only applies when blown and used for magic. Again, the Iron Born are not well educated and distrust masters. Doubtful that Victarion can recognize ancient scripts. Both men are some distance from the horns so difficult to see the symbols. Jon would not expect to see Valyrian symbols north of the wall so if seeing them from distance he would most likely assume that they are runes.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688193' date='Feb 17 2009, 00.24']Both horns are of similar size. Both are black. Both have bands of gold. Both have symbols on the bands. Red gold and brown gold are similar colors. Magical glowing probably only applies when blown and used for magic. Again, the Iron Born are not well educated and distrust masters. Doubtful that Victarion can recognize ancient scripts. Both men are some distance from the horns so difficult to see the symbols.[/quote]

One has bands of black steel, and is incised with glyphs. You can't get around this - Euron recognises them. It's his perspective, if he didn't know what the writing was the text wouldn't specify it like that. These are the rules Martin plays by.

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688198' date='Feb 16 2009, 08.28']One has bands of black steel, and is incised with glyphs. You can't get around this - Euron recognises them. It's his perspective, if he didn't know what the writing was the text wouldn't specify it like that. These are the rules Martin plays by.[/quote]
Here you are obviously wrong. Martin does not play with such rules. For example, Varys have at different times used disguises that were not immediately recognized as such. When Eddard saw Rugen for the first time Martin did not write "Varys disguised as gaoler thrust a jug at him". He wrote from Eddard's perspective and with the failures of perception this may imply "A gaoler thrust a jug at him."

So yes, Jon or Victarion may also be mistaken. Both men are some distance from the horns so difficult to see the symbols. Again, the Iron Born are not well educated and distrust masters. Doubtful that Victarion can recognize ancient scripts. Jon would not expect to see Valyrian symbols north of the wall so if seeing them from distance he would most likely assume that they are runes.

[Toe]

Also, the symbols do not necessarily have to be from the same language. Both Valyria and anyone seriously fighting the Others would be interested in dragons and do not necessarily speak the same language.

Let us also think about what animal have provided such horns or whatever body parts the horns are made from. We know that dragons have black bones and can be very large. Again indicates a connection with dragons for both horns.

[Horza]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688202' date='Feb 17 2009, 00.36']Here you are obviously wrong. Martin does not play with such rules. For example, Varys have at different times used disguises that were not immediately recognized as such. When Eddard saw Rugen for the first time Martin did not write "Varys disguised as gaoler thrust a jug at him". He wrote from Eddard's perspective and with the failures of perception this may imply "A gaoler thrust a jug at him."[/quote]

Thanks for making my point. Victarion from his perspective recognises the glyphs as Valyrian script. If he didn't, Martin would have said something like "he saw a strange script inscribed on them" - the same way Eddard just saw a gaoler. He didn't recognise Varys; Victarion [i]recognises [/i]the glyphs.

That and there's the business of the black steel bands...

You want this theory to be true, so you're willing to 1) cherry pick information that supports it and 2) ignore that which doesn't. With that in hand you go on to 3) which is subsititute your own interpretation what you want the text to say - supported only by doing 1) and 2). It's been fun but if you're willing to do this sort of thing there isn't much point in my taking it any further.