The grand Faceless Men conspiracy theory

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688231' date='Feb 16 2009, 10.25']Thanks for making my point. Victarion from his perspective recognises the glyphs as Valyrian script. If he didn't, Martin would have said something like "he saw a strange script inscribed on them" - the same way Eddard just saw a gaoler. He didn't recognise Varys; Victarion [i]recognises [/i]the glyphs.

That and there's the business of the black steel bands...

You want this theory to be true, so you're willing to 1) cherry pick information that supports it and 2) ignore that which doesn't. With that in hand you go on to 3) which is subsititute your own interpretation what you want the text to say - supported only by doing 1) and 2). It's been fun but if you're willing to do this sort of thing there isn't much point in my taking it any further.[/quote]

No, if Martin had to follow the rather unusual rule that the author most always write "the Truth" even if the current POV believes otherwise he would have written a "A man dressed as a gaoler" and not "A gaoler". And instead of writing regarding another of Vary's disguises "A woman sidled into the light; plump, soft, matronly, with a round pink moon of a face and heavy dark curls." Martin must write something like "A person having the appearance of a woman sidled...." Here Tyrion "recognises" a woman. Which later was proven false so a POV "recognition" does not mean that this must be the truth.

Except for this regarding "dark steel" and the symbols the horns looks very similar. From a distance "bands of red gold and dark steel" (not "black") and bands of "brown" gold are probably difficult to tell apart. All the larger features agree.

I would argue that it is you who are cherry picking by ignoring the many similarities between the horns. You have also not responded to other points I made earlier.

[Artanaro]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688231' date='Feb 16 2009, 08.25']Thanks for making my point. Victarion from his perspective recognises the glyphs as Valyrian script.[b] If he didn't, Martin would have said something like "he saw a strange script inscribed on them" [/b]- the same way Eddard just saw a gaoler. He didn't recognise Varys; Victarion [i]recognises [/i]the glyphs.[/quote]

I have issues with Toe's post (and Toe, I will reply to your earlier comments, but my righteous indignation picked up with the gaoler discussion), but you are wrong here, Horza. You are committing a logical fallacy. You are saying "Eddard would have recognized the gaoler, if he had been Varys." I'm not sure exactly which gaoler you two are arguing about, but if it is the one in the Red Keep, it is definitely Varys. Jaime even comes to the same conclusion. [b]Assuming that Eddard would recognize Varys, whom we have evidence is good with disguises, is a bad assumption[/b]. Please strike it from the record (if you two are referring to another gaoler, it may not have been Varys, [b]but using the argument that Ned SHOULD recognize is wrong[/b]). Just off the top of my head, Theon failed to recognize Asha, Winterfell failed to recognize Bran and Rickon's head, and Tyrion several times fails to recognize Varys until he makes his presence known. Now carry on.

Artanaro

[Horza]

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1688403' date='Feb 17 2009, 05.20']I have issues with Toe's post (and Toe, I will reply to your earlier comments, but my righteous indignation picked up with the gaoler discussion), but you are wrong here, Horza. You are committing a logical fallacy. You are saying "Eddard would have recognized the gaoler, if he had been Varys." I'm not sure exactly which gaoler you two are arguing about, but if it is the one in the Red Keep, it is definitely Varys. Jaime even comes to the same conclusion. [b]Assuming that Eddard would recognize Varys, whom we have evidence is good with disguises, is a bad assumption[/b]. Please strike it from the record (if you two are referring to another gaoler, it may not have been Varys, [b]but using the argument that Ned SHOULD recognize is wrong[/b]). Just off the top of my head, Theon failed to recognize Asha, Winterfell failed to recognize Bran and Rickon's head, and Tyrion several times fails to recognize Varys until he makes his presence known. Now carry on.

Artanaro[/quote]

You might want to re-read next time you get your righteous indignation up because I said nothing of the sort.

I pointed out that although Martin does hide information via perspectives, i.e. Ned failing to recognise Varys, the example Toe wants to use isn't a case of it. If Victarion (Aeron, actually) has no knowledge of Ancient Valyrian or Valyrian script (unsubstantiated), then like disguised Varys, the text would reflect it by him failing to identify it.

Toe wants to argue that in fact he doesn't because he's a pirate and not up close. and consequently the writing on the two horns is identical, while it's explicitly identified as two types of writing. When pressed on the steel bands he retreats into further 'it was dark and murky, no one could know for sure' obfuscation, whereupon you might as well not take anything in ASIOAF literally.

[Jakob Lightbringer]

While the horns do appear to be of different origins -- one is Valyrian, the other is of the First Men -- they are remarkably similar in most other respects. Both are extremely large -- larger than any living animal horn known to exist -- that alone makes them remarkably similar.
Both have arcane markings -- though different in language -- they mark the horns as items of religious or magical importance.

I think that the idea that these two gargantuan horns served a similar if not identical function -- for two different peoples at two different times -- has many merits.

[Horza]

[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1688684' date='Feb 17 2009, 09.45']While the horns do appear to be of different origins -- one is Valyrian, the other is of the First Men -- they are remarkably similar in most other respects. Both are extremely large -- larger than any living animal horn known to exist -- that alone makes them remarkably similar.
Both have arcane markings -- though different in language -- they mark the horns as items of religious or magical importance.

I think that the idea that these two gargantuan horns served a similar if not identical function -- for two different peoples at two different times -- has many merits.[/quote]

That's fair enough, I overreached by claiming 'completely different'. They're similar, maybe even the same horns of some gargantuan beast and we'll have to wait and see what they actually do apart from fry people's lungs.

Sorry for giving you a hard time about it, Toe (you're still wrong about everything else, though :P ).

[Guest Other-in-law]

Horza is correct, the horns are of completely different origins. They're similar only in the most general sense; they're both magical horns with metal bands with writing on them. They would look very, very different. "[url="http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/dietr1rv/zoogems/horn-Drinking.JPG"]Curved[/url]" and "[url="http://www.fossils-as-art.com/images/Narwhal-Tusk-l.jpg"]twisted[/url]" do not mean the same thing. Mance's horn is probably from a giant aurochs or some other woolly ungulant, Euron's is from a dragon. Euron also claims that his horn is

[i]"bound with bands of red gold and [b]Valyrian steel[/b] graven with enchantments."[/i]

Not just any steel (which the wildlings and First Men did not make) but [i]Valyrian steel[/i], which only the Valyrians made. Euron claims it, and no one contradicts him, and they had all seen the VS sword [i]Red Rain[/i] a few moments before.


As to dragons having speech, our sole source for that comes from the Undying of Qarth:

[i]"A willful beast," laughed a handsome young man. "Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come."[/i]

No confirmation as to how much truth there is to his claim, but it does come from the books.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1688715' date='Feb 16 2009, 18.13']As to dragon's having speech, our sole source for that comes from the Undying of Qarth:

[i]"A willful beast," laughed a handsome young man. "Shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind? Come, come."[/i]

No confirmation as to how much truth there is to his claim, but it does come from the books.[/quote]
I was just looking through the So Spake Martin collection, where -
[i]"In addition, he said that although AsoIaF dragons are intelligent, they cannot speak and will never evolve into the sort of dragons we see in Tolkien or Le Guin."[/i]

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1688735' date='Feb 16 2009, 18.30']I was just looking through the So Spake Martin collection, where -
[i]"In addition, he said that although AsoIaF dragons are intelligent, they cannot speak and will never evolve into the sort of dragons we see in Tolkien or Le Guin."[/i][/quote]
Interesting. So either the Undying were lying to Dany (no shocker there, the one who said that was one of the illusions she wasn't supposed to talk to) or it was using "speech" in some metaphorical sense, like telepathy or something. Compare to the direwolves, which do not [i]speak[/i]...but Martin actually wrote several POVs for Summer! The word "secret" before speech would be consistent with something of that sort.

[Horza]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1688735' date='Feb 17 2009, 10.30']I was just looking through the So Spake Martin collection, where -
[i]"In addition, he said that although AsoIaF dragons are intelligent, they cannot speak and will never evolve into the sort of dragons we see in Tolkien or Le Guin."[/i][/quote]

So, they may have some kind of language...

or the Undying could be full of shit. I think we can reject this latter hypothesis outright. ;)

EDIT: Dammit, OiL!

[Marakesh]

[quote name='Toe' post='1688132' date='Feb 16 2009, 06.27']Could you please state where Dany says that dragons have free will? I see little evidence that dragons have a sophisticated language or high intelligence. Of course many animals like birds have a form of communication but this does not mean a very high intelligence. Yes, Dany can issue commands to them. But this is possible with dogs also. All the descriptions regarding the dragons from Valyria or the Targaryen describe them as very dangerous but useful animals. Not as talking or intelligent[/quote]

Dany makes the free will statement after buying the Unsullied. I believe it was promised by one character or another that he could teach her to speak with the dragons, but it would take a while to find where that one is. They are born of magic, not of a dragon mommy and daddy so I just can't see them as regular beasts. Isn't there a quote from the author somewhere about the dragons representing their maker's inner fire or power? Its hard to say what to make of Euron's belief that the horn will control dragons. He certainly doesn't act like a fd, he's seems like a lusty pirate and not at all like Jaquen or the kindly man. More of a wild spirit who dreams big but really is a charming rogue. Remember, he says he threw a dragon egg he possessed away in one of his darker moods. He has too much gusto for wine, women, and experience, and shows too little control to either be a fd or be entrusted with a valuable artifact by them. So, he found a horn in Valaryia, maybe it controls dragons, maybe he just wants to believe it does. If Marwyn, Varys, or Aemon said it had that function I would be more convinced.


[quote]I feel exactly the opposite regarding the style of the series. For me there was a strange disconnect with the series. Most of the series seem to be about the politics and family affairs of the high nobility. Then there are also the Others who seem to have very little connection with all of this intriguing. We have now reached more than the halfway point of the series and the Others are still not really important to anyone south of the Wall. They will apparently not become important in ADWD either since there are no news of an invasion in a AFFC. Why name the series "Ice and fire" if the Others will only become really important and connected to most of the characters and the main political intrigues in book six out of seven? In contrast, in my theory the Others and their allies have been behind most of the political intrigues from the very beginning.[/quote]

Down south the only mention of the threat at the wall is snickering about snarks and gremlins. Meanwhile when we get John and Sam's pov the rangers are fighting for their lives. This would seem to indicate they don't take the threat seriously at court, and juxtaposed with the nightwatch scenes implies it will come back to haunt them. Its this obliviousness and the way they tear each other apart without worrying about the social consequences that makes the others invasion possible, not a master plot. LF clearly works for no one but himself but he's the epitome of the selfish nobleman scheming other people's downfalls, plans that cause even more misery for the lower classes, that really defines the upper classes in Westros. Its just plot twisting if its all a "Big Plan" from the beginning. If its about a self absorbed ruling class that's stuck in cycles of revenge and ego driven power grabs then there's more to it as a book. A secret society working towards world apocalypse just doesn't mean anything to me, its like the John Birch Society or Oliver Stone view of history.

This doesn't necessarily mean the series won't fall apart. It could go like BSG, after starting out great you end up with some idiotic revelations that undermine anything that had been good about it. I seriously wish the whole chapter wherein Dany gains the Unsullied was retroactively edited out of aSoS, in fact all of her chapters since then just seem unbelievable.

[TheEvilKing]

I wonder where the maesters fit in to all this? Mayhaps their hatred of magic/dragons directly opposes the FM. They don't hate magic/dragons out of spite or power or control or any nonsense, they hate it because dragons are a threat to the Wall. :thumbsup:

[Chalky]

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1689238' date='Feb 17 2009, 07.02']I wonder where the maesters fit in to all this? Mayhaps their hatred of magic/dragons directly opposes the FM. They don't hate magic/dragons out of spite or power or control or any nonsense, they hate it because dragons are a threat to the Wall. :thumbsup:[/quote]
...Which is perhaps the reason why "Pate" is over there

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1688746' date='Feb 17 2009, 00.37']Compare to the direwolves, which do not [i]speak[/i]...but Martin actually wrote several POVs for Summer![/quote]But they really were Bran's PoV warped by his wolfish perceptions. Same as when Nymeria fishes Cat from the river, it's not Nymeria speaking, it's Arya.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1689445' date='Feb 17 2009, 10.14']But they really were Bran's PoV warped by his wolfish perceptions. Same as when Nymeria fishes Cat from the river, it's not Nymeria speaking, it's Arya.[/quote]
But Bran doesn't normally call armour "hardskin" or castles "stone caves", etc. That's particularly direwolfish speech....only it's not [i]speech[/i] it's them thinking with words that humans don't use.

My point is that it may be possible to communicate with dragons somehow, though not necessarily by either conversation or warging.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1689449' date='Feb 17 2009, 16.18']But Bran doesn't normally call armour "hardskin" or castles "stone caves", etc. That's particularly direwolfish speech....only it's not [i]speech[/i] it's them thinking with words that humans don't use.

My point is that it may be possible to communicate with dragons somehow, though not necessarily by either conversation or warging.[/quote]Bran's thinking is warped by being in another body, Jojen prattles enough about it for us to know, that doesn't mean it's not him relating stuff he sees.

Anyway, even in reality it is possible to have animals with a behaviour you can label as intelligent. Dogs, for example. So it's certainly possible to have dragons interact with humans the way another animal would. The danger is in anthropomorphising them. Warging isn't really discussing with the beast, it's taking over. In the case of Bran or Jon, we see that the wolves are vessels for their communications, not the object. They don't talk with the wolf, they talk to the one controlling the wolf (or the tree, as it were), and when there isn't something used as antenna by the warg, he isn't sensed by the other wargs.

I'm not sure there would be a way to discuss with dragon anymore than there is to discuss with horses, or direwolves, or what it would bring to the story (besides throwback to my PERN days, of course)

[Artanaro]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688621' date='Feb 16 2009, 15.45']You might want to re-read next time you get your righteous indignation up because I said nothing of the sort.[/quote]
Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but could you answer one question for clarification. Which character are you and Toe arguing could or wouldn't be Varys? My point was, once a character has the ability to disguise his appearance, he really could be almost anyone, unless that person's identify can be verified. It's not difficult for Varys to pretend to be the Red Keep's gaoler, but it would be very difficult to pretend to be Tywin.

Thanks in advance.

Artanaro

[Horza]

[quote name='Artanaro' post='1691026' date='Feb 19 2009, 05.04']Forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but could you answer one question for clarification. Which character are you and Toe arguing could or wouldn't be Varys? My point was, once a character has the ability to disguise his appearance, he really could be almost anyone, unless that person's identify can be verified. It's not difficult for Varys to pretend to be the Red Keep's gaoler, but it would be very difficult to pretend to be Tywin.

Thanks in advance.

Artanaro[/quote]

We weren't arguing about Varys/Rugen, we were arguing about Martins use of perspective. Toe was using Ned's inability recognise Varys as the jailor Rugen to further his point that characters perspectives aren't accurate and can't be trusted, I was agreeing with that in general but argued that in the specific instance of Aerion and Horn it didn't apply.

[Toe]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1688715' date='Feb 16 2009, 19.13']Horza is correct, the horns are of completely different origins. They're similar only in the most general sense; they're both magical horns with metal bands with writing on them. They would look very, very different. "[url="http://www.cst.cmich.edu/users/dietr1rv/zoogems/horn-Drinking.JPG"]Curved[/url]" and "[url="http://www.fossils-as-art.com/images/Narwhal-Tusk-l.jpg"]twisted[/url]" do not mean the same thing. Mance's horn is probably from a giant aurochs or some other woolly ungulant, Euron's is from a dragon. Euron also claims that his horn is

[i]"bound with bands of red gold and [b]Valyrian steel[/b] graven with enchantments."[/i]

Not just any steel (which the wildlings and First Men did not make) but [i]Valyrian steel[/i], which only the Valyrians made. Euron claims it, and no one contradicts him, and they had all seen the VS sword [i]Red Rain[/i] a few moments before.[/quote]
Both horns are of similar size. Both are black. Both have bands of gold. Both have symbols on the bands.

The differences are that Jon thinks the symbols are runes and Victarion thinks they are Valyrian glyphs. Also that Euron's has "bands of red gold and dark steel" (this is likely Valyrian steel as you point out) while Mance's horn has bands made from "brown" gold. Also magical glowing which probably only applies when blown and used for magic.

Jon or Victarion are some distance from the horns so they cannot see small details. Again, the Iron Born are not well educated and distrust masters. Doubtful that Victarion can recognize ancient scripts. Jon would not expect to see Valyrian symbols north of the wall so if seeing them from distance he would most likely assume that they are runes. Similary, "brown" gold bands and dark steel/gold bands may well look the same from a distance.

Your observation regarding twisted and curved is more interesting since it is a larger feature. But it is unclear if your interpretation is correct or if twisted is here used as a synonym for curved.

Also, there is no reason that magical artifacts with a similar purpose must have exactly the same shape. This is before the industrial revolution. All important items are likely to be made by artisans and more or less different from one another. All Valyrian steel swords do not have exactly the same form even if they may have similar properties such as killing Others. So, the symbols do not necessarily have to be from the same language. Both Valyria and anyone seriously fighting the Others would be interested in dragons and do not necessarily speak the same language. Similarly, even if "twisted" and "curved" indicate different shapes, then this does not mean that the horns must have different purposes than different colors and shapes of swords precludes that they are Valyrian.

Let us also think about what animal have provided such horns or whatever body parts the horns are made from. Jon thinks that "If this came from an aurochs, it was the biggest that ever lived." Aurochs are wild oxen and oxen do not have black horns. We have in fact seen an auroch horn. The horn Jon found at the Fist of the First Men was an auroch horn and was far smaller. The only animal that we know that do have black skeleton are dragons. They can be very large. So seems the most likely explanation. Indicates a connection with dragons for both horns.

[Toe]

[quote name='Horza' post='1688062' date='Feb 16 2009, 02.36']All the stuff in red is total speculation, without any textual support.

This bit about dragonfire and the wall is plausible but the rest about Valyria is unsupported.

Rh'llorists have used lifeforce magic, there's been no mention of the FM doing the same thing - their magic as described in the AFfC Arya chapters revolves around illusion and more mundane things like good old poison.

Occam's razor attack, go! Why would you assume a relationship between stone beds and membership of a death cult? Can't Varys just be an ascetic? He takes pleasure in fooling people with his powdered eunuch display and reveals it as an act to Ned and Tyrion - why do that if he's meant to be an infiltrator.[/quote]
Obviously a theory is going to contain some theorizing. Otherwise it would not be a theory but instead just a list of facts and quotes. But the theory explains many mysteries and provides a logically consistent explanation of, for example, all of Varys's and Jaqen H'ghar's actions. If there is not a simpler theory explaining all of the things my theory explain and there are no logical or factual errors in the theory, then this theory should be accepted until such errors are found or a simpler theory arrives. Do you have such a theory?
[quote]The omnipotent Faceless Men direct the entire course of Westerosi history yet can't get someone to dig up a horn and give it a blow because...some dudes in black standing on a wall?[/quote]
Why would they need to dig it up? Did you read the part where I argued that it was the FM who gave Euron his horn? Regarding your point, to quote myself "So why did the FM not immediately after the Doom bring some dragons to Wall? Probably because at this time its defenses were at full strength. Even after the Wall has fallen the Others can be defeated as happened as when they tried before the Wall was built. So the FM needed time. Time to weaken the Night's Watch, time to remove knowledge about dragons and how to fight the Others, time to make themselves and the Others stronger."
[quote]There isn't any mention of cold or ice or wights or corpse collection.[/quote]
The FM in Braavos do collect the corpses of those who die in their temple and do something not known to Arya with them.
[quote]Why do they need Varys in they're so good and spying and infiltration?[/quote]
Not sure I understand your question. Those good at spying uses and needs spies.
[quote]Bzzt. Jaqen-Pate doesn't retain Pate's behaviour - he refers to himself as "Pate, like the pig boy" when talking to Sam while original Pate hated the epithet.[/quote]
Could well be subtle irony by Jaqen here. Regardless, my theory does not depend on the FM stealing memories. I just mentioned the possibility. But JH do seem to be able to fool Pate's friends and take over his job of caring for the ravens and Archmaester Walgrave.
[quote]there is no textual evidence of the limits or otherwise of Westerosi costume effects technology.[/quote]
Reasonable assumption to assume technology similar to that of our world before the industrial revolution. Dubious that someone even today could create a fake stubble that feels realistic.
[quote]it's a simple commentary on the cruelty of the feudal system. Also, nice cherrypicking.[/quote]
Could you imagine Joffrey making similar comments? One philosophical outlook and commentary do gives hints about one's personality.
[quote]Crackpot lesson #3 - assume that they're saying what you want them to say. Also, Gendry is sometimes called the Aurochs And Sam Ser Piggy... Could he be Pate?[/quote]
Hm, Aurochs are wild oxen, not wild boars. Regarding your point, no, my theory does not depend on possible double meanings of words, that is the least interesting aspect. More interesting is, for example, that is explains all of Varys, Qyburns, and JH actions.

[Toe]

[quote name='TheEvilKing' post='1689238' date='Feb 17 2009, 06.02']I wonder where the maesters fit in to all this? Mayhaps their hatred of magic/dragons directly opposes the FM. They don't hate magic/dragons out of spite or power or control or any nonsense, they hate it because dragons are a threat to the Wall. :thumbsup:[/quote]
Yes, my view also. But I am not sure that they are directly opposed to the FM or know about their goals. See the "Dragons and the Wall" section in my first post.