NBA

[Arakasi]

As long as the Suns are energetic and hustle on defense they'll be okay. Under D'antoni they had some pretty good defensive teams. (around 10th in the league). It's just their extreme pace made them look like they had a bad defense. They are never going to be great, but they can do alright.

Had the chance to watch 3 or so Cavs games in the last week, or at least good parts of them. I'll really need to disagree with Add-On about big Z now. The guy is not just an outside shooter. He is a surprisingly good offensive rebounder. And while he doesn't really have a post up game he does have some good post moves to compliment his strong outside jump shooting. He's just average on defense, but the big body helps obviously. But overall he is a top 10 center in the league and really important to their postseason success.

[aeu]

[quote name='Exa Inova' post='1705848' date='Mar 3 2009, 08.13']Here are the best players in each category.

Euros: Andrea Bargnani, Andris Biedrins, Jose Calderon, Rudy Fernandez, Pau Gasol, Zydrunas Ilglauskas, Andrei Kirilenko, Linas Kleiza, Nenad Krstic, Dirk Nowitzki, Mehmet Okur, Sasha Pavlovic, Peja Stojakovic, Hedo Turkoglu, Beno Udrih, and Sasha Vujacic.

Americans: Steve Blake, Matt Bonner, Nick Collison, Mike Dunleavy, Jeff Foster, Matt Harpring, Kirk Hinrich, Chris Kaman, Kyle Korver, David Lee, Mike Miller, Brad Miller, Troy Murphy, Brian Scalabrine, Wally Szczerbiak, and Luke Walton.

In a playoff series, I'll take the Europeans to beat the Americans four games to two.[/b][/quote]

How are the Americans going to win 2 games? They would be very lucky to steal one.

Triskele,

So, you are worried about Oden's injuries, but how about the rumors that he loves to drink and smoke, but not really like basketball? :P

[ZANNI_1276]

[quote name='aeu' post='1706047' date='Mar 3 2009, 11.50']How are the Americans going to win 2 games? They would be very lucky to steal one.

Triskele,

So, you are worried about Oden's injuries, but how about the rumors that he loves to drink and smoke, but not really like basketball? :P[/quote]

Look man, its is the NBA - many, many, many players drink, [i]"smoke"[/i] and chase women, gamble - certainly not church group. It is what guys in the NBA do. Why do you think the Heat are so tough at home? The nightlife drains opposing teams, they are playing on little sleep and hung over and no one has the energy to chase D-Wade down. NBA guys probably party harder in season maybe more than any pro athletes, and this is from an actual observation. I don't question Oden's dedication, I question his physical body. He hurt his other knee from over compensating his surgically repaired knee. At times some front office execs would see this as a sign of the begining of the end of what would have been a promising career, and I am not saying this applies to Oden but he is certainly heading down this path of caution and you have to look at it from a realistic standpoint. He may never be the player some people thought he would be. All I was saying I wouldn't have selected him back then, let alone right now going in the "way back machine". I thought Durant skill sets and acumen were light years ahead of Oden and overall potential outweighed the "yeah, but he IS A 7 FOOTER" argument - which I thought was a stupid angle to have.

Hey Arakasi, Big Z does get dogged often but for his size he is surpisingly agile and has very good hands. His primary focus on Defense is stay in the paint and grab boards (another underated portion of his game) while Wallace and Andy do the dirty work. On offense he can score in the post but as he has gotten older he has become more of a pick and pop player.
I like the Suns, funny that you mentioned that Mike D 's suns defensive ranking. Granted with the style of play both teams are going to put up points but I thought the biggest problem with them this year was their defense has been out and out terrible, where they were a formidable DEF when the were running and gunning. Looks like when they run they play better on the DEF side, I guess that is why Porter is collecting unemployment...

[Slurktan]

[quote name='Exa Inova' post='1705848' date='Mar 3 2009, 08.13']In a playoff series, I'll take the Europeans to beat the Americans four games to two.

Although I agree with his conclusion that European whites would beat american whites, the part about 'war-ravaged parts' is utter bullshit.

I dont know about you guys but I LMAO at Shaq comment that Chris Bosh is the RuPaul of big men.[/quote]

I'm not quite sure how the Americans would win 1 much less two.

That Shaq comment is funny and also surprisingly truthful, well not so much the RuPaul part but the part preceding it where Shaq comments on how Bosh quits. He does. I hate to say it but i wouldn't be surprised to see Bosh pull a Wince next year. Makes it all the more important to trade him in the summer while we can still get a good contingent of talent for him instead of the bag of shit they got for Vince. You have no idea how much I would have loved that trade Chad Ford was proposing before the deadline with GS. Just drop the headcase and build on Bargnani.

Everybody in TO knows Bargnani's the future anyways as he is a dynamic offensive player who yet (unlike Bosh) can actually play defense and has a fire in him. You know actually showing emotion and reacting to games win or lose. Plus it's amusing as he seems to actually love swearing in Italian at guys on the court. Obviously most(and the refs) have no idea what he's saying but you get the odd guy like Garcia on the Kings who understands and tries to start something. He does it all the time though so when the tv cameras/mikes get close and you know italian, get ready for an earful when watching Raptors games.

You can put it down here first, the Raps may be shit again next year but regardless of bosh, Bargnani will be the MIP of the NBA next season.

[add-on]

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1706037' date='Mar 3 2009, 10.37']Had the chance to watch 3 or so Cavs games in the last week, or at least good parts of them. I'll really need to disagree with Add-On about big Z now. The guy is not just an outside shooter. He is a surprisingly good offensive rebounder. And while he doesn't really have a post up game he does have some good post moves to compliment his strong outside jump shooting. He's just average on defense, but the big body helps obviously. But overall he is a top 10 center in the league and really important to their postseason success.[/quote]
I have no idea why you're saying 'top 10 center' like it means shit. We went over this in the last thread I thought? The NBA 5 is the most watered down position in the league.



And Houston had so much respect for Z's post game that they were guarding him with Chuck Hayes for stretches of that game, and he loses, what, a whole foot in height?

And anybody, absolutely any big in the league, could get offensive rebounds when all he has to do is stand near the bucket while LeBron drives and the big's defender has to step over and help. I'm sorry, but this is not a skill.

If Big Z is that important to their success, the LeBrons won't win.




[quote name='aeu' post='1706047' date='Mar 3 2009, 10.50']How are the Americans going to win 2 games? They would be very lucky to steal one.[/quote]
Took the words right out of my mouth.

[AutumnEvenings]

[quote name='ZANNI_1276' post='1706080' date='Mar 3 2009, 10.19']Why do you think the Heat are so tough at home? The nightlife drains opposing teams, they are playing on little sleep and hung over and no one has the energy to chase D-Wade down.[/quote] :lol: Then what on [i]earth[/i] are teams doing in SLC that makes them so beat-able for my Jazz? I mean, you could argue that we suck on the road because 'the road' has non-3.2 beer, but we consistently have one of the best home records in the league. I assure you it's not because the teams had way too much fun in Zion. :P


[quote name='add-on' post='1706139' date='Mar 3 2009, 11.00']I have no idea why you're saying 'top 10 center' like it means shit. We went over this in the last thread I thought? The NBA 5 is the most watered down position in the league.[/quote]Must've missed that, but I agree with you and it makes me sad. I remember Carl Malone moaning about how all he wanted was to play with a strong 5. And we had...AK. And now Memo, with [i]Boozer[/i] coming in as 5 too. Don't get me wrong--I love both AK and Memo, and Boozer's our star (when healthy and not being a bitch). But...as centers? I mean...just look at them. Yeah, Andre's arms are like 15 feet long, but...gah. My team seems to think 4 and 5 are interchangeable (I've seen Harpring in as 5 too. Never Millsap, but the guy's pretty bitsy.) It makes me kind of sad, because I feel like we're just throwing in tall guys who can rebound and figure that does the job. It wins games, but it doesn't really do the job. :(

[Arakasi]

[quote name='add-on' post='1706139' date='Mar 3 2009, 12.00']I have no idea why you're saying 'top 10 center' like it means shit. We went over this in the last thread I thought? The NBA 5 is the most watered down position in the league.



And Houston had so much respect for Z's post game that they were guarding him with Chuck Hayes for stretches of that game, and he loses, what, a whole foot in height?

And anybody, absolutely any big in the league, could get offensive rebounds when all he has to do is stand near the bucket while LeBron drives and the big's defender has to step over and help. I'm sorry, but this is not a skill.

If Big Z is that important to their success, the LeBrons won't win.[/quote]

Because that is what Houston does? They have Yao guard the basket and don't leave it so he can protect the paint, and other than Yao have really no one of any size on that team? Their primary post defenders other than Yao are 6'6" and 6'7". (Hayes and Landry) Plus the commentators in several games were talking about Z's skill of tipping and getting offensive rebounds. I'm sorry you seem to hate the Cavs so much that it clouds your judgement on their players.

His offensive boards percentage is 6th in the NBA, only behind Love, Howard, Biedrins, Millsap and Okafor. Yes we all know the center position is watered down, dominated as much by outside jump shooters with few reliable post players left. But still a guy who is a reliable 50% shooter out to 20 feet who is top ten in the league in offensive rebounds/minutes played is a strong asset to Cleveland and a reliable 3rd scoring option alongside West for that team.

Edit: Most teams would kill for a player like Z. Boston went after Mikki Moore to shore up their inside because Davis can't be counted on to hit a 12 foot jump shot. Jermaine O'Neal can barely get on most nights more points than shots he takes. Word is that SA is going to sign Drew Gooden for the playoff race. Big men who can shoot (and especially who can do something other than shoot, and Z can rebound on the offensive boards quite well) are extremely valuable in this league. I'm not saying he is the greatest player ever, but he is a legit 3rd scoring option and has quite a bit of value.

Hollinger on Z: [i]Perhaps his best skill, however, is a unique knack for tipping in balls around the basket. Ilgauskas is perhaps the best in the league at tipping in missed shots without controlling them, a skill that also makes him very good at jump balls.[/i]

Or David Thorpe in a more comedical answer.

[i]Moohead (Cleveland via a Barn): Is Zydrunas Ilgauskas underappreciated?

SportsNation David Thorpe: Yes!! Viva Big Z! [/i]

[ZANNI_1276]

[quote name='AutumnEvenings' post='1706181' date='Mar 3 2009, 13.19']:lol: Then what on [i]earth[/i] are teams doing in SLC that makes them so beat-able for my Jazz? I mean, you could argue that we suck on the road because 'the road' has non-3.2 beer, but we consistently have one of the best home records in the league. I assure you it's not because the teams had way too much fun in Zion. :P[/quote]

There are all those crazy, sex starved LDS ladies to keep them busy with cases of mini airline liquor bottles of courvoisier at Club Manhattan!

I think we can all agree, and keep drilling on the point that the true 5 has gone the way of the dinosaur, no arguments here on that one.
But Add ON, the overall success of the CAVS is not dependent on Z (like saying that the Bulls depended on Longley), but on the overall roster and role they collectively play and let's be honest LBJ but Z's value on the offensive boards shouldn't be summarily dismissed, he is a pretty good third option like the poster above stated. You can't argue that they haven't been getting it done this year - actually I am sure you could. LOL! I have come to appreciate much of your ANTI CAVS views, hell, I respect the consistent day in day out effort you put in. I don't put much into regular season records aside from the advantage of getting home court but I am really looking forward to the playoffs this year because these guys have been putting something special together this year.

Side note - Shaq calling Bosh RuPaul is an instant classic, I am just dreading hearing it over and over, can't wait till Sunday on ABC with Scott and Wilbon beating the thing to death. Oh, makes me cringe just to think about.

[Sir Thursday]

[quote name='add-on' post='1706139' date='Mar 3 2009, 18.00']I have no idea why you're saying 'top 10 center' like it means shit. We went over this in the last thread I thought? The NBA 5 is the most watered down position in the league.



And Houston had so much respect for Z's post game that they were guarding him with Chuck Hayes for stretches of that game, and he loses, what, a whole foot in height?[/quote]

Big Z took advantage of this, IIRC. When that matchup was on, Ilgauskas could pretty much do whatever he wanted. That's how he scored most of his points. It didn't seem very effective to me watching it, anyhow.


Sir Thursday

[add-on]

I don't hate the Cavs. I don't think they're as good as Boston or LA. Before Jameer Nelson went out, I thought the Magic had a very good chance at taking them out in the Playoffs due to how well the Magic match up against them (When I first analyzed Orlando in the last thread, I questioned their ability to score down the stretch. I did not know at the time how well Turkoglu had been doing just that all year long). I also think they'd lose in a series against SA, also because of match ups.

I strongly dislike Cleveland's style of play. Standing around watching one guy iso for the majority of the game is not my ideal type of basketball. I realize that it's incredibly effective for them, and that's why they do it. But I still strongly dislike it. I didn't like the Lakers or Kobe until sometime after the Gasol trade last season, when it looked like both had learned to play team ball the way it was meant to be played. Watching that disintegrate in the Finals was disappointing. I've got high hopes for this year.

I'm sure someone's going to throw Jordan's Bulls at me for the above, but try to remember that 1) he had Pip, and 2) it's [i]always[/i] different when it's your team.



Yes, it's true, I do hate LeBron (for some admittedly superficial reasons), and I do hate Varejao. But that's where the hate stops on that team. I think Z is overrated. Ben Wallace, as well, though I have a few fond memories of his time in Chi. Boobie amuses me. Despite the outdated hair, I'm a pretty big fan of West. Mo Williams, too.


It might seem like I hate the team because I'm always arguing against them. Whatever. I just don't think they're as good as the other teams in the conversation. That's it.


RE: Houston

Landry and Scola are both listed at 6'9". Also, comparing Landry to Hayes is a bit disingenuous considering how much longer Landry is. And I'm not sure why you decided to leave Scola out. Why'd you do that?


Z's offensive boards percentage means jack to me because of the context I noted in my last post. When your man's always running off to stop LBJ's penetration, it's no wonder you're able to tip the ball over the head of the wing who rotated over to help on you. Context > Stats.


Yes, big men who can shoot are valuable. But your comparison's aren't really doing it for me. Gooden's a role player. He's not expected to be a third option. Davis and Moore also both play in very limited roles. And no one has ripped on JO more than I have. I'm just not sure why we're talking about these guys.

Also, to Zanni's point about Z not having to do a lot on defense besides be big and get boards...well, that might work against teams in the East who only have one big to contend with (Howard for Orlando, Garnett for Boston -- although, you can't disregard Leon Powe, who can score from the block). But against any team coming out of the West, he's going to have to do some serious work. Scola and Yao both made him look like a fool the other night. Varejao or whoever will have to guard Odom, so that leaves Gasol to eat Z's lunch. If you were to suggest to me that Z could guard any of Boozer Milsapp or Okur, I would laugh in your face. Against SA, he either has to step out away from the basket to play with Bonner, or he gets eaten alive by Duncan.

Cleveland may make it out of the East, but matchups will kill them against any team that comes out of the West.

^If you want to call that hate, then fine.

[add-on]

[quote name='Sir Thursday' post='1706311' date='Mar 3 2009, 13.25']Big Z took advantage of this, IIRC. When that matchup was on, Ilgauskas could pretty much do whatever he wanted. That's how he scored most of his points. It didn't seem very effective to me watching it, anyhow.


Sir Thursday[/quote]
IIrc, he did get a couple buckets in a row when they tried it in the second half. But Houston used the same match up for parts of the first half, and Z couldn't take advantage.



ZANNI,


:rofl: Were you here for when I used the [i]exact[/i] comparison of Z to Longley? I'm not sure, but I don't think you were. Good times.

I agree, the Cavs are looking good this year. They're definitely better than I thought they'd be. The post above should explain my overall thoughts on them.

[Arakasi]

[quote name='Sir Thursday' post='1706311' date='Mar 3 2009, 13.25']Big Z took advantage of this, IIRC. When that matchup was on, Ilgauskas could pretty much do whatever he wanted. That's how he scored most of his points. It didn't seem very effective to me watching it, anyhow.


Sir Thursday[/quote]

Not to mention that is the strategy that teams like Phoenix, Houston and Orlando do with their bigs. They roam the paint and they don't play man up with opponents bigs unless they come inside. Hayes despite his lack of height is probably the closest thing to a Barkley type defensively in the league now. A short power forward who is a strong defender despite his lack of height. So of course he is going to go on Z.

I don't know what kind of second scoring option Cleveland would have to have to get teams to open the paint for him. They usually are playing with James + 4 perimeter shooters or James + Varajao/Wallace + 3 perimeter shooters with the occasional minutes to Hickson. And while not the best perimeter team out there, West, Williams, Wally and Z are all capable outside shooters. Gibson not so much, he's a bit too streaky.

The thing with Z and Williams (and now West a bit) that makes it nice for James is that they are capable of scoring points on their own with minimal help from James. Mo can drive and hit the 3 and Z hits the 18 footer too reliably for most teams to guard. (and like Add-On said most teams aren't going to send their center 18 feet out to challenge Z, thus leaving him against a smaller player) And considering they often play with two players (Wallace and Varajao) who are very bad offensively, you need some support for James.

That was the issue last night with Wade vs James. They matched eachother, but Mo or Z can usually give the Cavs some much needed second option scoring, while Wade is having to lift Miami on his back. Of course if James is hitting his long range jumpers like he did last night, well no one is going to be able to beat them.

[Arakasi]

[quote name='add-on' post='1706327' date='Mar 3 2009, 13.30']It might seem like I hate the team because I'm always arguing against them. Whatever. I just don't think they're as good as the other teams in the conversation. That's it.


RE: Houston

Landry and Scola are both listed at 6'9". Also, comparing Landry to Hayes is a bit disingenuous considering how much longer Landry is. And I'm not sure why you decided to leave Scola out. Why'd you do that?


Z's offensive boards percentage means jack to me because of the context I noted in my last post. When your man's always running off to stop LBJ's penetration, it's no wonder you're able to tip the ball over the head of the wing who rotated over to help on you. Context > Stats.[/quote]

Well the article I was reading mentioned Landry at 6'7". It might be one of those disconnects between stats and reality that so often goes on with player heights.

As for Scola, he is not their team's defensive stopper. Hayes and Landry are their tough defensive guys, not Scola.

[url="http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_finding_flexibility_at-255305-34.html"]http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_fi...-255305-34.html[/url]

[i]Hayes, the team's best low-post defender, has been in the starting lineup since he can guard another team's top post player and keep Yao Ming out of foul trouble. He's an ideal fit next to Yao when the Rockets are facing a team with a formidable front line.[/i]

Point is that Hayes is the backup for Yao on that team and it is no surprise he would be on Z, especially when Yao is not on the court.

Your point about Z's offensive rebounds is off for a couple reasons.

1) He has better offensive rebound rate than both other big men on the Cavs (worse than Hickson surprisingly than again he is very athletic and only plays limited minutes). But still that Z is comparable with Wallace and way ahead of Varajao is impressive. (in per minute numbers)

2) Would you be surprised to know that per minute numbers of Z on offensive boards has changed little from pre James to post James? (his offensive rebound rate per 36 minutes has increased by .15, which compared to his overall career average of 3.9 is less than a 4% difference) Would you be surprised that per minute that Wallace and Z have nearly identical career/minute numbers for offensive boards, and this was with Wallace who in the early 00s was considered the best rebounder in basketball. (both are career 3.9 offensive boards per 36 minutes)

For that matter Z is way ahead in per minute offensive boards career wise than players like KG, Duncan and Shaq. (better than Dwight Howard too, seriously, how many players does he have to beat in offensive board numbers before we stop chalking it up as fluke numbers or all due to LBJ. So yeah, context > stats right? :bang: I think I'd have less issue with your posts if you didn't have to go out of your way to put cheap shots in. It's taking some serious restraint here to not reply like I would like to, but I do respect your opinion enough to censor myself. But seriously do you think I didn't take into account the LBJ effect and really investigate the numbers before I made the argument?)

Even if you really look closely at his pre LBJ numbers Z's worst single season number was 3.5 (his average for those years was a 3.8), which is still significantly better than the averages of all the above players minus Ben Wallace and Dwight (3.6). The guy is just an offensive rebound beast. He always has and even though he has lost a bit of his step the skill is there.

Edit: I really really hate Basketball References interface. It's really difficult to compare players using their interface.

[add-on]

[quote name='Arakasi' post='1706387' date='Mar 3 2009, 13.57']Well the article I was reading mentioned Landry at 6'7". It might be one of those disconnects between stats and reality that so often goes on with player heights.[/quote]

I just looked him up on ESPN.com. Who knows.

[quote]As for Scola, he is not their team's defensive stopper. Hayes and Landry are their tough defensive guys, not Scola.[/quote]

Scola has been starting. So if Yao isn't on the opposing team's best low post threat (which I agree, he shouldn't be), then that role would fall to Scola.


[quote][url="http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_finding_flexibility_at-255305-34.html"]http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/Rockets_fi...-255305-34.html[/url]

[i]Hayes, the team's best low-post defender, has been in the starting lineup since he can guard another team's top post player and keep Yao Ming out of foul trouble. He's an ideal fit next to Yao when the Rockets are facing a team with a formidable front line.[/i][/quote]

Arak, what the fuck, man. This article is over a year old.

[quote]Point is that Hayes is the backup for Yao on that team and it is no surprise he would be on Z, especially when Yao is not on the court.[/quote]

He's averaging 12 minutes a game. Twelve. And I'm sure those numbers are [i]inflated[/i] due to the injuries sustained by the Rockets front line throughout this year. Case in point, Hayes only played as much as he did in the Cleveland game last week because Landry was out. He may have been an important defensive piece for them last year, as that article claims, but not so much this year. It's Scola and Landry (Artest or Battier if Adelman decides to go small).


[quote]1) He has better offensive rebound rate than both other big men on the Cavs (worse than Hickson surprisingly than again he is very athletic and only plays limited minutes). But still that Z is comparable with Wallace and way ahead of Varajao is impressive. (in per minute numbers)[/quote]

I don't see how this repudiates my point at all.


[quote]2) Would you be surprised to know that per minute numbers of Z on offensive boards has changed little from pre James to post James?[/quote]

Yes, I would be surprised. I concede the point.

[Arakasi]

Heh I missed the date on the Rockets article. Still that Hayes would be on Z for some part of the game is not a surprise, especially if Yao is not in the game.

Edit: Looking at 82games.com it seems pretty obvious that Hayes when healthy is their backup center. Almost all of his minutes are at the 5 with Yao out of the game. No surprise that he was on Z then.

And yeah, Z is among the best offensive rebounders all time in basketball. Top 10 for active players, and if not for his injuries would likely be top 3-4 because of all the time he lost due to his foot injuries.

[sToNED_CAT]

[quote name='add-on' post='1699838' date='Feb 25 2009, 16.42']Yeah. His dad's black and his mom's white, iirc.[/quote]

He's octaron. His father was 1/4 black, his mom was white, he's 7/8 white. I think he should be classified as white IMO.

[ZANNI_1276]

I hear where you are coming from Add On. There are some teams that despite how good they were I just always had a woody for them - such in case your Bulls with MJ. I used to get so worked up about how over rated Pippen was, basically flipping your argument about Z with both Longley and Wennington, moan about how overated Rodman was because offensive skills were shit. Thought anybody could do Phill Jackson's job - put four guys out there with MJ. Bitch about the lack of talent of the Bulls supporting cast - uhhh, being forced by the networks to watch them every f^ing week. MJ getting every god damn call and then whinning about it. MJ's face splattered every where I turned. So I understand where you are coming from. (funny there does seem to be a coorelation between the two teams...hmmm, I just hope the cavs have an ounce of that type of success)
And like you said it is diffrent when it is your team, LOL!! I think I just had a flashback to 1996.
No hard feelings mate, always good conversation.
:cheers:

But the overall body of work by the CAVS this year can't be dismissed. As far as matching up with the WEST - they have done pretty well against them both on the road and at home and I feel comfortable playing any of them in a best of 7. 0-2 vs the Lakers but I really want to play them when were are realtively healthy. Bucks on WED and then got Boston on Friday and Joe Smith should be dressed and ready to go - should be a hell of a game.
The one last night was a classic, Wade is such a great player, one of those guys you just love watching him. His motor is outstanding. O'neal has become a shell of his former self. I know people can't beleive all the money Ben Wallace is making but O'Neal's contract is boarderline larceny considering the output he gives you - like what 20 million for 10 points and 5 boards a night?? Too bad. Like Moon, rangy defender. But every time I see Beasley he just reminds me of Glenn Robinson and not in a good way (booze aside), I am curious how he will develop and what kind of player he is going to be.



Side note though, what did Anthony get suspended for? This guy does one extremly stupid thing a year and I think he was overdue...

[Arakasi]

Anthony I think got suspended for some team discipline thing. Likely for refusing to come out of the game when asked to.

[add-on]

[quote name='ZANNI_1276' post='1706444' date='Mar 3 2009, 14.27']I hear where you are coming from Add On. There are some teams that despite how good they were I just always had a woody for them - such in case your Bulls with MJ. I used to get so worked up about how over rated Pippen was, basically flipping your argument about Z with both Longley and Wennington, moan about how overated Rodman was because offensive skills were shit. Thought anybody could do Phill Jackson's job - put four guys out there with MJ. Bitch about the lack of talent of the Bulls supporting cast - uhhh, being forced by the networks to watch them every f^ing week. MJ getting every god damn call and then whinning about it. MJ's face splattered every where I turned. So I understand where you are coming from. (funny there does seem to be a coorelation between the two teams...hmmm, I just hope the cavs have an ounce of that type of success)[/quote]

Whenever people wanna talk about how overrated Scottie was I just point them to how good the Bulls still were the one full year Michael was out. And that's...all I'm going to say about all of that :P

[quote]But every time I see Beasley he just reminds me of Glenn Robinson and not in a good way (booze aside), I am curious how he will develop and what kind of player he is going to be.[/quote]

Really? Glenn Robinson? To me, Beasley seems like too much of a finesse player to make that comparison, but I haven't seen him play that often this year.

People are down on him a lot, but I still got faith. He's performing well for a team that never wanted him in the first place. He's gonna be all right.

[Young Wolf]

Cavs go down to the Cs in Boston without KG taking the floor. I think its a pretty big loss for the Cavs. Lebron looked horrible.

And dont look now Western Conf...but the Hornets have won 6 in a row and are a half game out of the 3 spot.

Utah makes an incredible comeback against Denver last night.

Things are getting close with the playoffs in sight soonish.