Watchmen II (Spoilers ahoy)

[Fatuous]

[quote name='Brude' post='1705723' date='Mar 3 2009, 04.08']Rorschach is the favorite of most people - he has, despite being seriously messed up and probably a fascist at heart, the guy has unwavering principles, some of them ones anyone could agree with and appreciate and he's willing to do just about anything in service to these principles - go to any length. Sometimes that can be a good thing, sometimes bad - but it's hard not to (at least sometimes) admire him for this. Also, the fact that he comes from such a victimized upbringing yet refuses to play the victim is attractive about him, too.[/quote]

Yes but it's because he's a sociopath. In truth, both Adriene and Rorschach are both sociopaths that are borderline psychopaths. Without a definite analysis, I can't really say which of them crossed that line {also, they're fictional so there's that as well} but it should be simple to figure out, right? I wouldn't say that Rorschach was a fascist; that takes belief that world has some sort of hope for order to triump. If anything, I'd say he was a nihilist. He backed the fascists because they were in the minority and they backed him because Rorschach was fighting for Order.

"Some of them ones anyone could agree with". Yes, that's the point of the issue with the psychoanalyst. I could go in depth here and try to split the difference between "sane" and "crazy" and the relation that has in the series to "Right" versus "Wrong" but I'd say Snyder was more interested in making sure the Rorschach mask looked cool rather than what it was.

Would I admire Rorschach and would I agree with him? No and no because if you believe Humanity has no chance or value and you don't kill yourself right after that realization then you're nothing more than a hypocrite. Out of all of them, I'd say the only Watchmen worth a damn is Dr. Manhattan. The Dr. Manhattan at the end of the story and not the one who stood by and watched the Comedien kill the hooker he knocked up in Vietnam. I leave it to the rest of you to figure out the "why". I'd need several posts to work out that guy's kinks.

[The Pita]

The point of Watchmen was that the reader could sympathise with one character above all others, and dislike some, and that each reader felt differently about each character.
I agree with both Veidt and Blake, thought Kovacs was awesome but couldn't really find it in myself to like him overmuch, disliked Osterman, was neutral about Juspeczyk, and liked Dreiberg a lot.

[siyrean]

i admit Veidt was the only character i really came out liking, i really love how you can get into big arguments over whether or not he was wrong or his actions justifiable. surprisingly i never liked Rorschech despite his badass status, he just always came across as creepy to me, i think it's because he's way too right wing for me to relate to on any level of thinking.

[G'Kar]

Rorschach was my favorite character, hands down. I love him for many reasons, but especially his line in the end: "No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise." He was a tortured soul, but still lived by a code. He wasn't a nice guy, but none of the heroes really are. He also acts as a nice counterpoint to Ozymandias, who is well spoken, handsome, tall and imposing, well educated, and wealthy; everything that Rorschach is not, yet Rorschach is still the better man. Say what you want about his methods, he never killed thousands of people.

[Maithanet]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1708120' date='Mar 4 2009, 16.15']"No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise."

Say what you want about his methods, he never killed thousands of people.[/quote]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

And Rorschach tortured and murdered several people. Not thousands, but the blood is there nonetheless. I agree he's likeable, but he's also downright creepy and a parasite on society.

[Prince of the North]

Well, I've been reading this thread for awhile and I just finished "Watchmen" last night (spoilers don't bother me). I just wanted to make sure I read it before I saw the movie.

I loved the tie-in of the Black Frieghter storyline with Ozymandias at the end. Yes, often times when we try to prevent something that we think might happen, we end up doing something worse. I guess the bottom line is that in the Watchmen world, just as it is in our world, the road to Hell truly is paved with good intentions ;)

[Werthead]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIhHema5PNg&eurl=http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html%22"]Truth.[/url]

[quote]"Why would I spend money for tickets to a squidless [i]Watchmen[/i] movie? It's like paying a hooker for housecleaning!"[/quote]

:D

[Mackaxx]

[quote name='Fatuous' post='1705907' date='Mar 4 2009, 01.29']Would I admire Rorschach and would I agree with him? No and no because if you believe Humanity has no chance or value and you don't kill yourself right after that realization then you're nothing more than a hypocrite.[/quote]

Ah, but he did give a damn. What ones says and what one actually feels are two very different things. Rorschach's story ark is pretty indicative of this. His are not the actions of a man who doesn't give a damn.

[Prince of the North]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1708189' date='Mar 4 2009, 15.58'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIhHema5PNg&eurl=http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html%22"]Truth.[/url]



:D[/quote]
That was truly awesome! :rofl:

[chionophile]

[quote name='uneedathneed' post='1708157' date='Mar 4 2009, 14.37']Only a Sith deals in absolutes.[/quote]

If you're going to try make a case, using a quote that contradicts itself is not a good place to start. Not to mention that quote is ridiculous anyways. Absolutes do not make a person evil.

Rorschach is brutal, but killing and torturing a few criminals, while definitely not good, is nowhere near as bad as what Veidt did.

[Mackaxx]

Quoting shitty george lucas tripe from the prequels is always fun, 'If you're not with me you're against me', how subtle Mr Lucas, whoever are you talking about.

'Jedis deal in absolutes' perhaps makes more sense in the overall context of the star wars movies than the Sith version.


Also, seeing in absolutes and dealing in absolutes are two very different things. This is of course very relevant to Rorshy.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='uneedathneed' post='1708157' date='Mar 4 2009, 16.37']Only a Sith deals in absolutes.[/quote]

Its funny how I used the exact same quote in a GC thread on Sunday. Its the quote that keeps on giving. :thumbsup:

[quote]And Rorschach tortured and murdered several people. Not thousands, but the blood is there nonetheless. I agree he's likeable, but he's also downright creepy and a parasite on society.[/quote]

Its not like he is going after innocents. He targets mostly scumbags. Now while that doesn't justify it, it makes him less evil. And how is he a parasite on society? He is the one going after the parasites.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1708189' date='Mar 4 2009, 16.58'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIhHema5PNg&eurl=http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html%22"]Truth.[/url]



:D[/quote]

Hitler is right! :leaving:

[Shryke]

Hitler is ALWAYS right.

Remember when Jim Cramer was all like "Bear Stearns will be fine." and then Hitler was like "Your full of shit it's so going in the toilet!".

Who was right?
That's right, Hitler.

[G'Kar]

Wow, Watchmen keeps on dropping on Rotten Tomatoes. Its now at 64%, and even the positive reviews ain't so positive. The consensus seems to be that Snyder was too true to the graphic novel, and fits in too much.

[Mackaxx]

My favorite critics loved it, being a pair of old fogies didn't stop them either.

[url="http://www.abc.net.au/atthemovies/txt/s2493386.htm"]http://www.abc.net.au/atthemovies/txt/s2493386.htm[/url]

Rottentomatoes meta critic thing inevitably craps all over certain types of movies, comedies in particular. Its mostly due to 'Serious Business' critics snubbing their nose at this or that.

[Ouroboros]

Roger Ebert gave it a glowing review, and he's one of the few critics whose opinion I actually care for.

And David and Margaret, I'm surprised David liked it, not usually his thing, but not at all surprised that Margaret loved it.

[delete this account pls]

I caught At the Movies last night, was surprised David liked it as well.

[Maithanet]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1708451' date='Mar 4 2009, 19.50']Its funny how I used the exact same quote in a GC thread on Sunday. Its the quote that keeps on giving. :thumbsup:[/quote]

I'm well aware of the paradox of the quote. I meant it to imply that Rorshachs own logic/life plan is equally flawed. Any man who seeks to dispense his own justice but nonetheless sees the world in black and white terms is going to be causing more problems than he solves, I'd say.


[quote name='G'Kar' post='1708451' date='Mar 4 2009, 19.50']Its not like he is going after innocents. He targets mostly scumbags. Now while that doesn't justify it, it makes him less evil. And how is he a parasite on society? He is the one going after the parasites.[/quote]

He has no problem with breaking into people's houses and stealing things (Comedian and NiteOwls homes). He thinks its all right to break into Moloch's home and threaten him with death because he had an illegal firearm. He skulks around investigating criminals and punishing them as he sees fit. He's just dispensing justice because he feels he's the only one who has the will and vision to do it. He has no intention to "clean up the streets" or rehabilitate anyone or even some hope of reducing crime. His contribution to society is minimal, and his contribution to disorder and violence in society is significant. That seems like a parasite to me.

[mormont]

[quote name='G'Kar' post='1708451' date='Mar 5 2009, 00.50']And how is he a parasite on society? He is the one going after the parasites.[/quote]

Well, for a start he is something of a petty thief. He's constantly pocketing or stealing minor stuff throughout the series. Look at the contents of his pockets when he's arrested. It's quite subtle, but clearly intentional on the author's part. Rorschach dies for his principles, but even he is a hypocrite in small ways.