The ASOIAF wiki thread

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I don't think a solid number was ever agreed upon, but quotes should be included within reason. Is there an article with an overabundance which can be trimmed?

The Tyrion Lannister and Slavery articles, for example.

 

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Regarding the House Stark article, there was a recent removal of Brandon and Lyanna from "House Stark at the end of the third century" with the explanation "both died well before the events of the books/end of the 3rd century. no other article (f.e. house targaryen) lists people that died during RR". They were removed outright, instead of being moved to Historical Members.

Rather than being limited to characters from the start of AGOT, these sections seem to include the most recent 1-2 generations. For instance, House Martell includes Elia and Lewyn (who died in RR) and House Arryn includes Jon's brother Jasper and nephew Elbert (who died before or during RR). House Lannister includes Tywin's brothers Tygett and Gerion, who died/vanished before AGOT as well.

House Baratheon's corresponding section, in contrast, begins with Robert's generation and has his father Steffon in Historical Members.

Seeing as how Brandon and Lyanna are now completely abset from the list, something definitly has to be changed on that page. The fact that they died during Robert's Rebellion should not matter. The paragraph is called ".. at the end of the third century", and RR did occur towards the end of the third century.

 

We could choose to list the members of a house starting from the generation of the House's lord (in which case, Brandon and Lyanna should be placed back on the list). In that case, however, Rickard would be placed under historical members (as he is currently), and if we decide to do so, it should at least be made clear that Ned, Brandon, Benjen and Lyanna are his children by Lyarra.

 

As Rickard is frequently mentioned, however, we can also decide to list him under "... at the end of the third century", starting from him and Lyarra, continueing to Eddard, Brandon, etc. A similar case could be made for Aerys II.

 

But in any case, Brandon and Lyanna should not be removed from the page.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The Tyrion Lannister and Slavery articles, for example.

I removed a number from Tyrion, at least, although there are still many left.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I removed a number from Tyrion, at least, although there are still many left.

I think the "quotes about" section is good in this size, but perhaps we can shorten the "quotes by" section a bit more? Or do you think this number of quotes is also acceptable?

[Nittanian]

14 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I think the "quotes about" section is good in this size, but perhaps we can shorten the "quotes by" section a bit more? Or do you think this number of quotes is also acceptable?

I would say less useful ones would be

Tyrion: When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own. Jon Snow: You did? Tyrion: Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back. I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister. Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams.[14]

”

“

When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.[28]

”

“

Sorcery is the sauce fools spoon over failure to hide the flavor of their own incompetence.[55]

”

[The Wondering Wolf]

Quote

Ser Abelar Hightower was a knight of House Hightower during the reign of Daeron II Targaryen. He was heir to the ruling Lord of Oldtown.^[1]

Where does that come from? The graphic novels?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Where does that come from? The graphic novels?

Not as far as I can tell. Can't find it anywhere.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Recently a lot of pages were created like this one (Elaena Glenmore), which under "Recent Events" have only subtitles (but no text), and which have references listed, with question marks in front, which either link nowhere, or incorrectly to the tale of the Ice Dragon.

 

What do we do with these pages? Delete the empty subtitles and incorrect references?

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Recently a lot of pages were created like this one (Elaena Glenmore), which under "Recent Events" have only subtitles (but no text), and which have references listed, with question marks in front, which either link nowhere, or incorrectly to the tale of the Ice Dragon.

 

What do we do with these pages? Delete the empty subtitles and incorrect references?

They are referring to the Telltale adventure game series (the last episode of which is called "The Ice Dragon"). However, the Telltale adventure game is canon only to the TV series, not the books, so shouldn't be on the book wiki as a source of canon information.

[Ran]

Agreed. If it's not in the books, shouldn't be in the wiki to start with.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

@Werthead and @Ran,

Thus, delete all pages concerning characters from the telltale game series? I suppose we do keep a page for the game itself right? With a short explanation of what the game is.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Rhaenys_Targaryen

[Ran]

I think that makes sense, yes. Providing pages for each non-canonical character/location/event dilutes the wiki, though.

[Werthead]

Yup. There are basically now two continuities, the TV show and the books, and they each have their spin-offs. The Telltale game draws on the HBO TV series (it uses multiple TV actors) and not the novels. The Cyanide RPG game occupies a kind of oddball middle-ground, where it draws on the book continuity but also drops in a couple of the TV voice actors. The chances of either the TV show or books mentioning the events of their respective video games is pretty close to zero though.

It is worth remembering that House Forrester is mentioned in the books (in ADWD, I believe) but all the information on them in the games come from Telltale, not George.

[Mindset]

On 3/25/2016 at 4:13 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

Where does that come from? The graphic novels?

 

On 3/25/2016 at 6:02 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Not as far as I can tell. Can't find it anywhere.

Abelar Hightower being called the heir to Hightower is from the supplemental material in the second edition of the Hedge Knight graphic novel, the list of arms of the Ashford Tourney. The later editions (the Marvel HC & TPB, and the Jet City TPB) don't have all four pages of the list of arms, just two for some reason, and exclude Abelar Hightower among others.

I can edit the reference on the page, and also update the list of arms in the THK GN article, but would it also be helpful (or allowed) to upload images of that list? I do have them if necessary.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Mindset

[Mindset]

FYI, the Book Sources special page no longer correctly links to the Amazon pages for books with that ISBN. (For example.) An admin may wish to update it using Wikipedia's format or Mediawiki's.

[benzar7]

"A Wiki of Ice and Fire is fan-created for George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO's Game of Thrones." - The front page of the site. This implies it is more than just the books...as on most of the pages I created I indicated, or will indicate that these characters are purely from the Telltale Game, but I believe they should still be included. It is made clear on the House Pages through Sub-Headings that these characters are purely from a non-canon (in the case of not being directly from George) addition to the ASOIAF Universe...like so

Game of Thrones - A Telltale Games Series

I understand the sentiment to keep purely book related material on the site, and keeping it from having too much contact with the TV Show alterations, but the Telltale Game Series, and the Cyanide Game of Thrones RPG do not directly focus on those same POV characters, and as a result it would be highly unlikely to confuse people. I am aware that important characters such as Ramsay (for Telltale), and Cersei (for Cyanide) appear, but I would not even dare to change pages associated with those characters to fit the actions they perform in the games. As long as it is made very obvious that these characters are from games, not the book series, I do not see what harm it is to have them included in it. Of course this is up to everyone else, but for me personally I would like to see the info for both of these series to be more in depth than just "hey they exist..." but that is me. I would be fine with not categorizing them with other canon-characters if that would allow their info to be displayed. On top of this I believe it is to our benefit to include pages about characters from these 'extended universe' games because it will portray us as having a more solid and firm grasp of everything ASOIAF. As you all have stated above though...I don't think this is your intention considering you all seem to be focusing purely on the books and want to avoid having anything outside of them, but I have hope you will understand that this will likely not "dilute" the integrity of this site, it will be just increasing the scope of the knowledge we have to offer. Ideally it would bring, granted not many, but more people to the site who may not know about it, because of their interest in learning about the games. Also, "

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

The chances of either the TV show or books mentioning the events of their respective video games is pretty close to zero though.

Though I agree with this sentiment for the Telltale series, on the Cyanide game here is a quote from its page on the site "The game puts players in control of two original characters, Mors Westford and Alester Sarwyck. They do not appear in the novels of A Song of Ice and Fire, although George R. R. Martin has indicated to the studio that he might choose to make mentions of them, their families, or details from the game's story in later novels," and another, " The script was reviewed by George R. R. Martin and went through multiple drafts before he and everyone else on the team was happy with it. It was necessary in part because the developers wanted it to have as much fidelity as possible to Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire and wanted to avoid inconsistencies not just with the currently published books, but with future books in the series. One of the essential points that Martin and the developers wanted for this game was not simply to be a game where the book itself was the script. They did not want the player to play Eddard Stark, but instead show something exclusive and original, something fitting in within the gaps that exist in the story." Now do these characters have an extremely high chance of being included...not necessarily, but George took the time to review and rewrite drafts for them game, so it is quite possible he could include their characters just because he actually put the time to make it in-line with his work...so I would argue the chance is quite a bit higher than "pretty close to zero."

P.S. The reason the pages were linked inaccurately to "The Ice Dragon" is because one of the episodes of the Telltale series has the same title as the Book. I would have remedied this in the future, but apparently it would have been pointless anyway based on the deletion of my pages. Also it should be noted just in case, I am first and foremost a fan of the books, but still see the value of the inclusion of these other works, and in making them just as in-depth as we are known to do for canon material. 

Edited March 27, 2016 by benzar7
Accidentally posted before I finished typing. I edited it again to fix errors, and try to clear up some of my thoughts. It is very late where I live...so hopefully I make sense.

[benzar7]

Also if you guys change your mind, I saved all my work on my computer, and can re-upload it, but if the consensus is to remove it, you still need to do so for House Forrester (and all associated pages), and House Glenmore (and all associated pages). Also I added info on characters from the Cyanide Game of Thrones RPG...so also remove (if desired) the character pages I made for House Sarwyck...and the one extra one I added to House Celtigar. I again I understand your fears, but I think these pages will do no real harm as long as they are defined to be non-canon properly. I just ask that you guys actually consider my request of keeping them to add more knowledge to our wiki. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, Mindset said:

Abelar Hightower being called the heir to Hightower is from the supplemental material in the second edition of the Hedge Knight graphic novel, the list of arms of the Ashford Tourney. The later editions (the Marvel HC & TPB, and the Jet City TPB) don't have all four pages of the list of arms, just two for some reason, and exclude Abelar Hightower among others.

I can edit the reference on the page, and also update the list of arms in the THK GN article, but would it also be helpful (or allowed) to upload images of that list? I do have them if necessary.

Thanks a lot for clarifying. I don't know if it's allowed to upload those images, but maybe you could send them to me per PM?  

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

7 hours ago, Mindset said:

 

Abelar Hightower being called the heir to Hightower is from the supplemental material in the second edition of the Hedge Knight graphic novel, the list of arms of the Ashford Tourney. The later editions (the Marvel HC & TPB, and the Jet City TPB) don't have all four pages of the list of arms, just two for some reason, and exclude Abelar Hightower among others.

I can edit the reference on the page, and also update the list of arms in the THK GN article, but would it also be helpful (or allowed) to upload images of that list? I do have them if necessary.

I thought that page already contained the info from the mote elaborate graphic novel edition? I'd say please edit the page, if there's still information missing!

When I ordered my graphic novel copy, I had hoped it would have the more elaborate list, but sadly, it doesn't.

 

Thank you for clarifying where the info comes from!

 

[Alexander the Drake]

8 hours ago, Mindset said:

I can edit the reference on the page, and also update the list of arms in the THK GN article, but would it also be helpful (or allowed) to upload images of that list? I do have them if necessary.

As the wikifier of the original list, I too would love to see the images of the extra pages, even via PM. I knew when compiling it that there were different versions going around, and meant to track down and incorporate the rest.

But the local library which had the older edition of the GN turfed their copy before I could properly consult it, and before the JetCity reprints came out, all the OOP editions were horribly expensive to even buy, much less have shipped outside the US, and I couldn't find any concrete mentions of exactly which supplements came in which versions, so I kind of gave up on that notion. Incidentally, both the French and Spanish translations also only have the 2-page version of the roll of arms, and they became my actual original source.

Anyway, thanks for clearing up something I've always been kind of curious about.

As regards the new additions to the list, anyone have any particular opinions on whether or not to separate out Ser Alyn Garner, Ser Corwin Rogers, and Ser Howard Pyle, who seem very likely to be in-joke tributes referring to the authors of The Owl Service, the Chronicles of Amber, and The Merry Adventures of Robin Hood, respectively into a subsection just above where the GN creators who're also on the roll are listed?

Or maybe just add a footnote reference beside their names, since they may well exist within Westeros in much the same way as House Jordayne of the Tor and the two houses based on Jack Vance's books do, and one day show up as a cameo in the stories proper.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Where is it stated that the seat of House Chyttering is Chyttering?