The ASOIAF wiki thread

[The Wondering Wolf]

Sigil of House Westbrook was uploaded by Scafloc, you are allowed to modify it. That of House Edgerton was shared under Creative Commons by-sa 2.0 licence, don't know the terms of it, but I guess it can be found somewhere.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Sigil of House Westbrook was uploaded by Scafloc, you are allowed to modify it. That of House Edgerton was shared under Creative Commons by-sa 2.0 licence, don't know the terms of it, but I guess it can be found somewhere.

Ok, I'll see if I have time to fix House Westbrook this weekend. I won't have the time to look at the House Edgerton license, though.

[Ran]

Was away when the title question was asked. I don't consider the titles spoilers in themselves, especially if you don't watch the show.

Someone else has raised the question of how to handle season 6 events on the wiki, since we do have "on the show" sections for some characters. I'm not sure how to answer that. Should we avoid covering post-S5 material, should we see if we can implement some sort of collapsable spoiler box ala the forum, or something else?

[direpupy]

On 20-4-2016 at 11:00 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ok, I'll see if I have time to fix House Westbrook this weekend. I won't have the time to look at the House Edgerton license, though.

On 17-4-2016 at 10:35 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

The arms of House Edgerton don't match with the description at the Citadel, the fields are mixed up.

The arms of House Westbrook depict four bars instead of two.

@Ran House Yelshire - Barry green and gold, a black battering ram with a gold head on a black chief

Black on black seems a bit unlikely, and your version depicts a white chief, can you tell what's the right one?

Actually the Westbrook arms are not wrong on the wiki, a bar gemmel is a double bar so two bars gemmel is actually four bars.

from the wiki: According to semi-canon sources they blazon their arms with two green bars gemmel on gold

from a site on heraldry: The diminutive form of the bar (narrower than a bar yet wider than a cottise) is the barrulet, though these frequently appear in pairs, the pair termed a "bar gemel" rather than "two barrulets".

Edited April 23, 2016 by direpupy

[The Wondering Wolf]

You are right, mea culpa.

[direpupy]

No problem heraldry terms are confusing, i actually read your post a couple of days ago and thought you where right until i came across the term when i was looking up something else in a list of heraldry terms.

[The Wondering Wolf]

On ‎18‎.‎04‎.‎2016 at 5:04 PM, The Wondering Wolf said:

House Kidwell

Quote

According to semi-canon sources they blazon their arms with pale green ivy bendy on black masonry.^[1] The meaning of 'bendy' in this context is unclear, as in heraldic terminology that word refers to multiple diagonal bars.

I guess it means that the ivy is set bendwise on the field. Like this.

Would you agree with my explanation here?

[direpupy]

46 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Would you agree with my explanation here?

from the list i was talking about.

Bendy, (fr. bandé): said of a field or charge divided bendwise into an even number of equal parts; or, as it may be otherwise described, as a field bearing a series of diagonal stripes of alternate tinctures(and liable to the same variations of the edges as the bend), but so that there is an equal number of each. It stands to reason that if the same tincture appears in chief as in base, the shield must be blazoned as a field bearing so many bendlets. As a rule, the first tincture is named; but in the case of a metal and colour, though the latter is first in order, the metal is to be first named.

https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m057a.gif

And an example, the arms of Monsire de Montfort port bende de X. peces d'or et d'azure--Roll, temp. ED. III.

However it says pale green ivy bendy on black masonry does it not?  there is also a term  Paly bendy which seems to be a alternative form for Bendy barry and looks like this.

https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m057b.gif

so the question is does the pale revere to the colour or is it part of the heraldic terms to describe the arms?

Edited April 23, 2016 by direpupy
images did not show

[The Wondering Wolf]

6 minutes ago, direpupy said:

from the list i was talking about.

Bendy, (fr. bandé): said of a field or charge divided bendwise into an even number of equal parts; or, as it may be otherwise described, as a field bearing a series of diagonal stripes of alternate tinctures(and liable to the same variations of the edges as the bend), but so that there is an equal number of each. It stands to reason that if the same tincture appears in chief as in base, the shield must be blazoned as a field bearing so many bendlets. As a rule, the first tincture is named; but in the case of a metal and colour, though the latter is first in order, the metal is to be first named.

And an example, the arms of Monsire de Montfort port bende de X. peces d'or et d'azure--Roll, temp. ED. III.

However it says pale green ivy bendy on black masonry does it not?  there is also a term  Paly bendy which seems to be a alternative term for Bendy barry and looks like this.

The second link is the same as the first one.

[direpupy]

11 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The second link is the same as the first one.

should be fixed now they are two different images if it still shows the same one in both let me know.

They are consecutive images on the site so they are labelled 57a and 57b perhaps you are confused by that?

Edited April 23, 2016 by direpupy

[The Wondering Wolf]

10 minutes ago, direpupy said:

should be fixed now they are two different images if it still shows the same one in both let me know.

Now it works.

19 minutes ago, direpupy said:

so the question is does the pale revere to the colour or is it part of the heraldic terms to describe the arms?

Due to the order of wording I would say that it refers to the colour.

19 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Bendy, (fr. bandé): said of a field or charge divided bendwise into an even number of equal parts; or, as it may be otherwise described, as a field bearing a series of diagonal stripes of alternate tinctures(and liable to the same variations of the edges as the bend), but so that there is an equal number of each. It stands to reason that if the same tincture appears in chief as in base, the shield must be blazoned as a field bearing so many bendlets. As a rule, the first tincture is named; but in the case of a metal and colour, though the latter is first in order, the metal is to be first named.

Since no bendlets are mentioned, I would argue that the ivy is just set up bendwise, not even actually per bend.

Have a look on the arms of Jane Seymour. The relevant field is blazoned:

5: Per bend gules and argent, three roses bendwise counterchanged

[direpupy]

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Now it works.

Due to the order of wording I would say that it refers to the colour.

Since no bendlets are mentioned, I would argue that the ivy is just set up bendwise, not even actually per bend.

Have a look on the arms of Jane Seymour. The relevant field is blazoned:

5: Per bend gules and argent, three roses bendwise counterchanged

Well no, bendlet is merely a diminutive of bend and only used to describe what U should use to create a Bendy arms. It does not have to be mentioned since a bendy arms is simple a term for a arms consisting of multiple bendlets. Bendwise is something completely different.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Somehow I had always bendwise in my mind, but it's not mentioned in the blazoning at all. Terrible day.  So I guess this is the right one? Just pale green ivy instead of Azure and black masonry instead of Or.

[direpupy]

 

Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

Somehow I had always bendwise in my mind, but it's not mentioned in the blazoning at all. Terrible day.  So I guess this is the right one? Just pale green ivy instead of Azure and black masonry instead of Or.

Yes, but thinking about it setting up ivy in the form of a bendlet is rather odd, since a bendlet is basically a bend but at halve the width and a bend is actually just a bar running from the dexter corner to the opposite edge of the shield.

I think we have a case here of GRRM using the term bendy when he actually means something else.

Much like the Chevron thing from a while back on this tread, Ran said that when GRRM says Chevron he actually means Chevron inverted.

Although I have no idea how else to interpret the description, so for now lets just go with this the ivy set up as a bendlet.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, direpupy said:

Actually the Westbrook arms are not wrong on the wiki, a bar gemmel is a double bar so two bars gemmel is actually four bars.

from the wiki: According to semi-canon sources they blazon their arms with two green bars gemmel on gold

from a site on heraldry: The diminutive form of the bar (narrower than a bar yet wider than a cottise) is the barrulet, though these frequently appear in pairs, the pair termed a "bar gemel" rather than "two barrulets".

Ah, thanks! I had already been wording what the word "gemmel" meant, but google only gave me definitions that did not apply in this context, which did not help at all.

So how about House Edgerton?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

16 hours ago, Ran said:

Was away when the title question was asked. I don't consider the titles spoilers in themselves, especially if you don't watch the show.

Someone else has raised the question of how to handle season 6 events on the wiki, since we do have "on the show" sections for some characters. I'm not sure how to answer that. Should we avoid covering post-S5 material, should we see if we can implement some sort of collapsable spoiler box ala the forum, or something else?

Ok, will add the title(s).

How about the 1 or 2 sentence descriptions HBO releases before each episode? Like this one, for the season 2 final episode (to prevent spoilers  )

Tyrion awakens to find his circumstances have changed. Joffrey gives his subjects a reward. Luwin offers Theon advice while he incites the passion within his men. Jaqen H'ghar bestows a gift upon Arya.Daenerys soon finds herself in a strange place.

 

We don't cover show material on the wiki on character pages at all, at the moment. We could consider linking to A Game of Thrones Wikia. I think collapsible text will require templates, and am not sure if that's the best option. We could also decide to make more use of the Differences between books and TV series for this, but this page is, at the moment, rather outdated.

[direpupy]

6 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ah, thanks! I had already been wording what the word "gemmel" meant, but google only gave me definitions that did not apply in this context, which did not help at all.

So how about House Edgerton?

the arms in the citadel is the correct one, the one on the wiki has the quarters mixed up like wondering wolf said, the black and white fussily should be in the upper left and lower right quarter, and the wheel of flame on indigo should be in the upper right and lower left corner. (by right and left i mean your right and left as you are looking at the arms)

this is the correct arms from the citadel http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Edgerton/

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

7 minutes ago, direpupy said:

the arms in the citadel is the correct one, the one on the wiki has the quarters mixed up like wondering wolf said, the black and white fussily should be in the upper left and lower right quarter, and the wheel of flame on indigo should be in the upper right and lower left corner. (by right and left i mean your right and left as you are looking at the arms)

this is the correct arms from the citadel http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Edgerton/

Ok. So, based on the license, are we or are we not allowed to modify the image?

[direpupy]

The terms of the licence in question, i put the important part in italic, to me it seems that you can change it but you have to credit them and if you distribute it you have to do it under the originals licence.

You are free to:

• Share — copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format
• Adapt — remix, transform, and build upon the material
•  

• The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms.

Under the following terms:

• Attribution — You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.

   

   

• NonCommercial — You may not use the material for commercial purposes.

• ShareAlike — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you must distribute your contributions under the same license as the original.

• No additional restrictions — You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits.

Notices:

• You do not have to comply with the license for elements of the material in the public domain or where your use is permitted by an applicable exception or limitation.

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by direpupy

[Ran]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ok, will add the title(s).

How about the 1 or 2 sentence descriptions HBO releases before each episode? Like this one, for the season 2 final episode (to prevent spoilers  )

Tyrion awakens to find his circumstances have changed. Joffrey gives his subjects a reward. Luwin offers Theon advice while he incites the passion within his men. Jaqen H'ghar bestows a gift upon Arya.Daenerys soon finds herself in a strange place.

That feels like something that may possibly have to be marked as spoilers for S6-on, on the off chance some of these are too clear about significant events.

I'd say differences between book and screen is the right way to go with handling events from the TV show. I don't know, maybe sub-pages for characters to tackle 'On the show'? It need not be in-depth, but I do think there's an interest in our having some relevant information alongside the book info.