Onion Knight

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Sounds like a good idea. "The Soiled Knight" confirms that Quentyn received knighthood from Lord Yronwood instead of from Oberyn.

Separately, should a House Bolton of Winterfell article be created, since Ramsay is Lord of Winterfell in ADWD?

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Per the examples of House Tyrell of Brightwater Keep, House Foote of Nightsong and House Lannister of Darry perhaps we should

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On 16-2-2016 at 0:05 AM, Ran said:

Nittanian,

That remark from GRRM was based on GR's first books. As I said, George is not as involved in them as he once was, and

Per Referencing and Canon, information in semi-canon sources needs to be verified as coming from George. "... origin with Martin must be an estalished fact, not assumed".

Rhaenys,

Sometimes the people who got the permission to put up the images add a quote or note to the images directly citing the permission the artist gave. If that doesn't exist for any of her images, it's probably safest to approach her about some new  image(s), and perhaps get her to confirm that she's still okay with the previous images being used.

 

 

 

Ran,

In that case, what is your opinion on the use of the Green Ronin RPG as a semi-canon source on the wiki? Should we stop using it? And if so, should we stop using the Guardians Order RPG as well, or can we still use that when the books don't provide the info?

 

Thank you about the advice regarding the images. I'll contact her.

 

I also have a question, which I was hoping you could answer, regarding The Mystery Knight. There appears to be a contradiction somewhere in the information we have, and I was hoping you could perhaps clarify what the correct situation is.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II, clearly states that the Blackfyre Rebellion began in 196 AC, and lasted "nigh on a year". The app (entry of Maekar I Targaryen), clearly states that the Redgrass Field occured in 196 AC.

In The Sworn Sword, Duncan states that it had been 15 years since the Redgrass Field and the Blackfyre Rebellion. In The Mystery Knight, Duncan clearly states that it has been 16 years since Daemon rose in rebellion and died.

The World of Ice and Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I states that the Second Blackfyre Rebellion occured in 211 AC. That would place TMK in 211 AC, as that story depicts the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. However, that doesn't seem to fit with two things:

  1. Duncan's statement regarding the Blackfyre Rebellion having been 16 years past. If TMK occured in 211 AC, an event sixteen years prior would have occured in 195 AC, not in 196. And Duncan seems to be rather precise in his account regarding the passage of time since the Rebellion.
  2. Walder Frey's age doesn't match up either. We have his age given fairly precise in the books. He's both 90 and 91 in 299 AC, which would place his birth in 208 AC. In TMK, he's mentioned to be four. If Walder was born in 208 AC, he would have been turning four in 212 AC, and have been four turning five in 213 AC.

Since Duncan's statements regarding the Rebellion (15 years ago in TSS, 16 years ago in TMK) makes it sound a bit as if the two stories take place in different years, I was wondering if you could confirm for us, in what years TSS and TMK take place? Based on Walder's age and the statements regarding the First Blackfyre Rebellion, I thought it was 211 AC for TSS, and 212 AC for TMK, but that contradicts with the account given in TWOIAF.

 

I was hoping you might clarify this.

Edited by Rhaenys_Targaryen

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22 hours ago, Nittanian said:

FFG has a "Siege of Riverrun" card.This is currently used in the siege of Riverrun article (Daven's siege in AFFC), but should it instead be used with the Battle of the Camps article (Jaime's siege in AGOT)? From Tyrion IX:

While the card doesn't seem to depict fighting, it shows a night situation and the fires look more like a conflagration than controlled campfires.

If it is unclear which siege it depicts, perhaps we shouldn't use it for any of the articles?

 

Btw, I was wondering about opinions on this approach for the infoboxes regarding houses per region at the bottom of the appropriate pages. Instead of the box we have now.

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Sounds like a good idea. "The Soiled Knight" confirms that Quentyn received knighthood from Lord Yronwood instead of from Oberyn.

Separately, should a House Bolton of Winterfell article be created, since Ramsay is Lord of Winterfell in ADWD?

I'll dig up my Wiki password and change it ;)

I'm not active on 'Ice and Fire' wiki because WesterosCraft Wiki http://westeroscraft.wikia.com/wiki/WesterosCraft_Wiki & other things take much of my time.

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Btw, I was wondering about opinions on this approach for the infoboxes regarding houses per region at the bottom of the appropriate pages. Instead of the box we have now.

I like that design a lot! It can be updated for future books and can be used for other regions. I also created the Bolton of Winterfell article (please expand!).

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18 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

I like that design a lot! It can be updated for future books and can be used for other regions. I also created the Bolton of Winterfell article (please expand!).

Yeah, I figured that, to avoid spoilers at a glance, the lower box should automatically be collapsed, and once Winds is out, it can be updated and retitled appropriately. For consistency, I suppose, it should be done for every Region, even those where nothing essentially changed (Dorne, the Westerlands).

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@Ran,

 

In addition to the questions I asked above, I have two more questions regarding the lay-out of the mobile wiki.

Currently, on the mobile skin, the text is alligned by the center. This makes several things, like bullet-point lists we use to explain family trees and such, a bit difficult to read, as the location of the bulletpoint depends on the length of the name behind it. Would it be possible to align the text to the left?

Secondly, we use a lot of templates at the end of pages for easier navigation (like here on the end of this page on the Dance of the Dragons). These don't show up on the mobile skin. Is there a way to make these visible on the mobile skin? 

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Can't really change the mobile skin at all, I think, though maybe some edits could be made to CSS alignments. I'll have to look into that. I believe it very deliberately eschews the use of most templates, however, to create a lean, clean design suitable for mobile.

As to the timeline question, at root is a bit of uncertainty in the time of the first rebellion, as I have George on record giving the 196 date... but you're quite right that a lot of other things seem to point to 195. I think it's going to have to wait for George to have some time free to get it sorted out.

 

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Ran, do you know if George intends the royal Flints of Breakstone Hill to be the First Flints of the mountains? If so we can merge the two articles.

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19 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yeah, I figured that, to avoid spoilers at a glance, the lower box should automatically be collapsed, and once Winds is out, it can be updated and retitled appropriately. For consistency, I suppose, it should be done for every Region, even those where nothing essentially changed (Dorne, the Westerlands).

I tried one for the riverlands here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=Sandbox&oldid=181196

Also, the templates use "knightly houses", but George refers to landed knights.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Can't really change the mobile skin at all, I think, though maybe some edits could be made to CSS alignments. I'll have to look into that. I believe it very deliberately eschews the use of most templates, however, to create a lean, clean design suitable for mobile.

Interestingly enough, when making a mobile edit, you first get a preview of your text before you can save the edit, and in the preview, the text is aligned to the left.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ran said:

As to the timeline question, at root is a bit of uncertainty in the time of the first rebellion, as I have George on record giving the 196 date... but you're quite right that a lot of other things seem to point to 195. I think it's going to have to wait for George to have some time free to get it sorted out.

I'd sooner say that a lot of things point to the Mystery Knight  (and thus the Second Blackfyre Rebellion) occuring in 212 AC, instead of 211 AC.. Daeron ascends the throne in 184 AC, and starts two years of negotiations with Maron Martell. At the end of those two years, Maron agrees to marry Daenerys, which he does the following year, placing the marriage in 287 AC. Daemon is said to have rebelled eight years later, which fits perfectly with the statement that the Rebellion began in 196 AC.

I might be wrong, as I don't know how the date of 211 AC for the Second Blackfyre Rebellion was determined, but TMK in 212 AC seems to fit with all previous statements (Daeron negotiating with Maron, Daenerys' marriage, Daemon rebelling 8 years later, the rebellion lasting nigh on a year, and Dunk's statements regarding the years since the FBR).

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2 hours ago, Nittanian said:

I tried one for the riverlands here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=Sandbox&oldid=181196

Also, the templates use "knightly houses", but George refers to landed knights.

See, this is one of the links that on my phone, I can't see.

 

Looks good. But, shouldn't House Strong be listed as extinct, instead of exiled? Larys was explicitly named to have been the last of the ancient line of House Strong, and he was killed in the aftermath of the Dance.

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17 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Looks good. But, shouldn't House Strong be listed as extinct, instead of exiled? Larys was explicitly named to have been the last of the ancient line of House Strong, and he was killed in the aftermath of the Dance.

Denys and Duncan Strong are in the Golden Company, so they should be in the same category as the Lothstons (Jon) and Mudds (John & Lorimas), right?

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10 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Denys and Duncan Strong are in the Golden Company, so they should be in the same category as the Lothstons (Jon) and Mudds (John & Lorimas), right?

Ah, that way... 

Though, we don't actually know if any of these are truly descendant from those houses, do we? Lothston can descent from a member of that House who had fought of Daemon instead of Daeron and had thus been exiled, but House Strong has explicitly been stated to have ended with Larys. The Mudds, I think, are a unclear (and thus should remain where they are, I suppose)?

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18 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ah, that way... 

Though, we don't actually know if any of these are truly descendant from those houses, do we? Lothston can descent from a member of that House who had fought of Daemon instead of Daeron and had thus been exiled, but House Strong has explicitly been stated to have ended with Larys. The Mudds, I think, are a unclear (and thus should remain where they are, I suppose)?

ASOS and AFFC indicate the Lothstons are also gone: "The Lothstons ... had died out ages ago, so no one was likely to object to him bearing their arms." "My grandfather's grandfather helped killed the last o' Lothston." Then in ADWD: "Not all were genuine, he knew. In the free companies, a man could call himself whatever he chose."

I think it's okay keeping them in an exile tier, since the Golden Company is composed of exiles and we don't know if they are true or false (JonCon's thoughts indicate that some are genuine). If Aegon VI is victorious and awards lands to Jon Lothston, for instance, the second template for TWOW or ADOS can have the Lothstons moved from Exiled to Noble.

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1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

ASOS and AFFC indicate the Lothstons are also gone: "The Lothstons ... had died out ages ago, so no one was likely to object to him bearing their arms." "My grandfather's grandfather helped killed the last o' Lothston." Then in ADWD: "Not all were genuine, he knew. In the free companies, a man could call himself whatever he chose."

I think it's okay keeping them in an exile tier, since the Golden Company is composed of exiles and we don't know if they are true or false (JonCon's thoughts indicate that some are genuine). If Aegon VI is victorious and awards lands to Jon Lothston, for instance, the second template for TWOW or ADOS can have the Lothstons moved from Exiled to Noble.

Ok :) 

Should we go ahead and add the region infoboxes as showing both the AGOT state and the ADWD state for each region?

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Would separate templates be required for the Vale, Dorne, and westerlands?

The Iron Islands and the Reach could show the changes in the Shields Islands.

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