Rhaegar targaryen

[israfel070]

[quote name='Kimera757' post='1712114' date='Mar 7 2009, 20.57']How many Targaryens got themselves killed trying to turn into dragons? Or just wasted time/resources trying to "wake" dragons?[/quote]
Only Aerion Brightflame did that. Not too many have attempted to hatch dragon eggs, as they only died out 150 years ago

Aegon "Dragonbane" III - tried obsessively to hatch eggs after the last dragon died during his reign.
Aegon "the Unworthy" IV - followed in his big brother's footsteps re: dragons. Legitimized all of his bastards, sparking the family strife that would culminate in the Blackfyre Rebellion in the next generation
Daeron II - was instead obsessed with finally bring Dorne into the kingdom. He did so, but was assassinated in his bed before things had settled into true peace.
Maekar I - a warrior king who died in battle
Aegon "the Unlikely" V - Egg from the Hedge Knight.
Jaehaerys II - not much known
Aerys II - obsessed with fire

[Ceomyr]

[quote name='Kimera757' post='1712114' date='Mar 7 2009, 23.57']How many Targaryens got themselves killed trying to turn into dragons?[/quote] One. Although another fantasized about becoming a dragon when bathed in wyldfire, he had too much fear or sense still in him to try beforehand and then he was killed. Both were considered mad and especially eccentric for Targaryens for what they did in life.

[quote name='Kimera757' post='1712114' date='Mar 7 2009, 23.57']Or just wasted time/resources trying to "wake" dragons?[/quote] None, because It is not a waste of time or resources to study how to create new dragons*. Dragons are the finest weapons we've seen so far in the series and Aegon the conquerer thoroughly demonstrated this fact. Even a single baby dragon is practically priceless. A full grown dragon could be enough to turn a minor lord into the master of all seven kingdoms.

*Edit: Caveat, within reason of course, it depends how much time and resources you put towards it, what chances you have of success and what results come out of it. Given that we don't know exactly what time and resources were spent and exactly what was learned its hard to accurately judge.

[Holmes]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1711262' date='Mar 6 2009, 18.31']It would also explain why a man that so many thought so highly of could be capable of suddenly kidnapping and repeatedly raping an innocent young woman.[/quote]

Uh, what? I must have missed where it said that anywhere in the books. Pretty sure that Lyanna wouldn't put up with any repeated raping. Take a look at the Knight of the Laughing Tree story a little closer.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Holmes' post='1712159' date='Mar 8 2009, 02.02']Uh, what? I must have missed where it said that anywhere in the books.[/quote]
Oh, it says that in the books, but there's a character bias that makes it uncertain. Robert claims that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times.

[Holmes]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1711830' date='Mar 7 2009, 13.53']Despite the fact that thousands of soldiers watched his chest get split open, several hundred leagues (1l=3mi) from the Wall?

They burned his body, remember? That's the one thing we know that absolutely prevents wightification.[/quote]


Far more likely that it's Bloodraven. After re-reading SoS again, the passage when Coldhands rescues Sam and Gilly really sticks out. The description of all the ravens in the weirwood matches the coat of arms of Bloodraven's maternal house. While GRRM does like to throw the red herrings in there, I'd be surprised if this was one of them. I forgot who caught that one first, but it was beautiful.

[Holmes]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1712164' date='Mar 8 2009, 01.06']Oh, it says that in the books, but there's a character bias that makes it uncertain. Robert claims that Rhaegar raped Lyanna hundreds of times.[/quote]


He would, wouldn't he? Of course, Robert's got as much proof as Blauer Dragon...

[israfel070]

It's kinda sad really... Robert and Blauer just can't face certain heartbreaking truths... :rofl:

[Winter Crow]

*Sighs like a wise and old father in a room full with annoying kids*

...

DON'T TREAT ANY THEORIES AS CANON!!!!

...

Now, let me apologize for my overreaction. I apologize. But seriously, being comdemned as a mad man is never fun, especially if all you've ever do is believe in another theory. You guys really know how to make a guy feel welcome, you know?

And no, we don't have any concrete proofs that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. But do we really have any concrete proofs saying he didn't? Yes, he was a paragon of goodines and chivalry, and yes he was the dream of all maidens and wives alike throughout the realm, but that is by no way an excuse. Some serial killers IRL are handsome people, who act perfectly normal in the daily life. That's like saying that LF is innocent because he knows how to act polite.
All I'm saying is, Rhaegar could have kidnapped and raped Lyanna. For all we know he only acted good and true to "seduce" her, so that he could get her close and then run away with her. And after he had her locked up in the ToJ or wherever, he could pretty much do as he pleased.

[arek]

[quote]DON'T TREAT ANY THEORIES AS CANON!!!!

...

Now, let me apologize for my overreaction. I apologize. But seriously, being comdemned as a mad man is never fun, especially if all you've ever do is believe in another theory. You guys really know how to make a guy feel welcome, you know?

And no, we don't have any concrete proofs that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. But do we really have any concrete proofs saying he didn't? Yes, he was a paragon of goodines and chivalry, and yes he was the dream of all maidens and wives alike throughout the realm, but that is by no way an excuse. Some serial killers IRL are handsome people, who act perfectly normal in the daily life. That's like saying that LF is innocent because he knows how to act polite.
All I'm saying is, Rhaegar could have kidnapped and raped Lyanna. For all we know he only acted good and true to "seduce" her, so that he could get her close and then run away with her. And after he had her locked up in the ToJ or wherever, he could pretty much do as he pleased.[/quote]

Barristan the Bold had only good things to say about Rhaegar if their was anything negative to say about Rhaegar he would have told dany the truth (he didnt lie about Aerys).

Arthur Dayne (the finest knight Eddard Stark ever saw) was Rhaegars best friend.

Lyanna didnt love Robert, Ned never thought ill of Rhaegar once in his POV's

Jorah, Jaime, Barristan, Ned, Nimble Dick Crabbe, Aemon not one character bar Robert had anything bad to say about Rhaegar.

[israfel070]

[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1712203' date='Mar 8 2009, 02.51']*Sighs like a wise and old father in a room full with annoying kids*[/quote]
Sorry, wise father. I assumed most people would have the confidence to withstand a little playful banter

[Sirius]

[quote name='arek' post='1712225' date='Mar 8 2009, 05.27']Barristan the Bold had only good things to say about Rhaegar if their was anything negative to say about Rhaegar he would have told dany the truth (he didnt lie about Aerys).

Arthur Dayne (the finest knight Eddard Stark ever saw) was Rhaegars best friend.

Lyanna didnt love Robert, Ned never thought ill of Rhaegar once in his POV's

Jorah, Jaime, Barristan, Ned, Nimble Dick Crabbe, Aemon not one character bar Robert had anything bad to say about Rhaegar.[/quote]

And I feel that a huge part of why Robert hated Rhaegar so much was not only that he stole the woman that he loved, but also the blow that it dealt to his pride. Robert was nothing if not proud and headstrong, and I think he's mostly pissed at Rhaegar because Rhaegar stole what Robert felt was his. Even if, and this is a big if, Lyanna did prefer Rhaegar to Robert and just ran off with him. I don't recall anywhere that it says Lyanna was head-over-heels for Robert. But I could be wrong :)

[Antonius Pius]

[quote name='King of the Wolf Pack' post='1712432' date='Mar 8 2009, 20.46']And I feel that a huge part of why Robert hated Rhaegar so much was not only that he stole the woman that he loved, but also the blow that it dealt to his pride. Robert was nothing if not proud and headstrong, and I think he's mostly pissed at Rhaegar because Rhaegar stole what Robert felt was his. Even if, and this is a big if, Lyanna did prefer Rhaegar to Robert and just ran off with him. I don't recall anywhere that it says Lyanna was head-over-heels for Robert. But I could be wrong :)[/quote]

There was a strong rivalry between Robert en Rhaegar before Harrenhal, wasn't there? I believe I read something to that effect somewhere.

Also, The Laughing Storm also had a certain rivalry with certain members of House Targaryen, as he only entered Dunk's trial to "tweak Maekar's nose". This was roughly a hundred years before AGoT.

[Winter Crow]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1712406' date='Mar 8 2009, 19.21']Sorry, wise father. I assumed most people would have the confidence to withstand a little playful banter[/quote]
I meant that ironically ;) .
I'm terribly sorry, we danes have an annoying habit of being as ironical and sarcastic as possible :/ . It's pretty much all we do. Well, that and drinking our brains out.

And about Rhaegar the peoples' man: Several real-life serial killers know how to blend into the public as well. Does that render them good people? Humans can always be deluded, no matter how wise. And Rhaegar WAS an exceptionally smart guy. I don't think it would be hard for him to fool most of all the guys in Westeros.
Arthur and Ned in particular weren't very hard to fool, I suspect. All you have to do is act chivalrous and nice in the general public. Rhaegar has never had any reason NOT to act chivalrous and nice, so that's an image he could bear pretty easily.
And if he did poses some mental disease that made him obsess about the prophecy, then I think he would do anything to see it come true, even act in a way that he might or might not have wanted. As long as it all served his prophecy.

And just for the record, why could a paragon of chivalry not be obssessed with something? He might still have kidnapped (or fooled into going with her willingly, which I believe he did) Lyanna, even if it pained him greatly. If he had a phsycotic urge to do it, I don't think he had much of a choice.

[Arianne of Sunspear]

[quote name='Holmes' post='1712159' date='Mar 8 2009, 03.02']Uh, what? I must have missed where it said that anywhere in the books. Pretty sure that Lyanna wouldn't put up with any repeated raping. Take a look at the Knight of the Laughing Tree story a little closer.[/quote]


I also must have missed the part where it referred to the repeated raping coming from an unbiased source, i.e. anyone but Robert.

Ned, for example never mentions that; what he does provide is the 'bed of blood' reference, which coupled with Robert's accusations leads us, the readers, to some pretty awful assumptions about what befell Lyanna, but.... it's an assumption we are purposefully led to by our Dear Author.

[Ceomyr]

The thing is, its quite a leap to presume that all evidence of Rhaegar's good personal character (Eddard, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Lyanna falling for him, his popularity with the people, Tywin offering Cersei's hand, the Martell's offering Elia, the frog kids, etc) is all flawed and wrong; that a lone, questionable and biased source (Robert) is actually telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It just seems more likely that all the evidence towards Rhaegar's character means he was probably a good guy for the most part, while Robert thought the worst of Rhaegar because Robert had reason to dislike him and was his enemy.

I'm open to being wrong, its certainly possible that Rhaegar did horrible things, but I would have to see some strong evidence. The crucial point for most arguments that Rhaeger is some sort of sociopathic madman is the death of Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, but were not certain what happened there. We don't know why the Kingsguard were defending it, why Lyanna was dying and covered in blood, and what secret Eddard swore to keep. Rape would fit (but why the vow for secrecy), but so would a bad childbirth with Jon being the son of Rhaegar, and we just don't know exactly what happened.

[Sirius]

[quote name='israfel070' post='1711830' date='Mar 7 2009, 13.53']Despite the fact that thousands of soldiers watched his chest get split open, several hundred leagues (1l=3mi) from the Wall?

They burned his body, remember? That's the one thing we know that absolutely prevents wightification.[/quote]

Now that you say that though... Dany wasn't killed in her fire, right? :) I know it's completely unlikely, but since I love Rhaegar so much, I'd love to have him pop up randomly some how. That would pretty much make my day :thumbsup:

[the silent speaker]

[quote]The thing is, its quite a leap to presume that all evidence of Rhaegar's good personal character (Eddard, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Lyanna falling for him, his popularity with the people, Tywin offering Cersei's hand, the Martell's offering Elia,[/quote]
Whoa down, tiger.
1) Ned never says anything much about Rhaegar's personal character generally; he says once that he didn't think Rhaegar was the sort to frequent brothels. From that we can comfortably infer that Rhaegar was not the type to frequent brothels; we can comfortably infer no more.
2) Barristan specifically says he didn't know Rhaegar well.
3) "Lyanna falling for him" is the very premise you're trying to prove.
4) His popularity with the people presumably dates to back when he was alive, i.e. before he absconded with Lyanna.
5-6) Lannister and Martell arranging their daughters to marry him is more a testament to Rhaegar being the crown prince than Rhaegar being of splendid stellar character. Furthermore, those both happened before the incident with Lyanna, which no one disputes was other than a one-off; I'm not aware that anyone claims Rhaegar was secretly a [i]serial[/i] kidnapper-rapist.

[Clumber]

Why did this thread have to degenerate into another R+L argument? You know that rule (I forget the name) about how Nazi's are ever more likely to be mentioned with each consecutive post in a forum? In these ASOIAF threads, it's the same thing only with R+L=J. People can't help but bring it into every thread and argue it endlessly.

[Rhaegar_Targaryen]

[quote name='Clumber' post='1712868' date='Mar 9 2009, 13.11']Why did this thread have to degenerate into another R+L argument? You know that rule (I forget the name) about how Nazi's are ever more likely to be mentioned with each consecutive post in a forum? In these ASOIAF threads, it's the same thing only with R+L=J. People can't help but bring it into every thread and argue it endlessly.[/quote]

You do know whose fault this is....the nazis. Damn them :angry:

[Daena the Defiant]

[quote name='Clumber' post='1712868' date='Mar 8 2009, 22.11']Why did this thread have to degenerate into another R+L argument? You know that rule (I forget the name) about how Nazi's are ever more likely to be mentioned with each consecutive post in a forum? In these ASOIAF threads, it's the same thing only with R+L=J. People can't help but bring it into every thread and argue it endlessly.[/quote]

Why I do believe you mean [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law"]Godwin's Law[/url].

Incidentally, intentional invocation (whee, the alliteration!) of Godwin's Law also means that they conversation has come to an end and should be closed ;)