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Rhaegar targaryen


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[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1713915' date='Mar 9 2009, 12.29']That's it? That's what you got? By that logic Sansa is in twue wuv with Marillion.[/quote]
Obviously my other example is stronger, and you cherry-pick arguments. You're the type of person who takes the position that you like and ignores any canon facts that contradict you. Enjoy the rest of the series.
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[quote name='bacchys' post='1712951' date='Mar 8 2009, 23.33']Baelor the Blessed was probably insane, and so was Daeron.

Maegor the Cruel and Aegon IV the Unworthy are also possibles for having a touch of the Targaryen madness.[/quote]
Baelor the Blessed was exceptionally devout, but I've not read anything that would cause me to categorize him as insane. Keeping his sisters in the Maiden Vault comes closest, but I'd rather call that excessive piety.

Are you referring to Daeron the Boy King? What is your beef with him? Conquering Dorne?
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[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1713942' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.48']Baelor the Blessed was exceptionally devout, but I've not read anything that would cause me to categorize him as insane. Keeping his sisters in the Maiden Vault comes closest, but I'd rather call that excessive piety.

Are you referring to Daeron the Boy King? What is your beef with him? Conquering Dorne?[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Targaryen#Daeron_I"]The Wiki link for Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed.[/url]

There's a bit more there to support Baelor as touched with the Targaryen madness than Daeron, but I think throwing away forty thousand men to conquer Dorne suggests at least a touch of it.

I don't think they have to be as mentally gone as Aerys II or Brightflame to qualify under the "crazy" side of the Targaryen family tree.
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[quote name='bacchys' post='1714045' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.25'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Targaryen#Daeron_I"]The Wiki link for Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed.[/url]

There's a bit more there to support Baelor as touched with the Targaryen madness than Daeron, but I think throwing away forty thousand men to conquer Dorne suggests at least a touch of it.

I don't think they have to be as mentally gone as Aerys II or Brightflame to qualify under the "crazy" side of the Targaryen family tree.[/quote]

Some would argue that what you are calling craziness, is just determination.
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[quote name='bacchys' post='1714045' date='Mar 9 2009, 16.25'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Targaryen#Daeron_I"]The Wiki link for Daeron I and Baelor the Blessed.[/url]

There's a bit more there to support Baelor as touched with the Targaryen madness than Daeron, but I think throwing away forty thousand men to conquer Dorne suggests at least a touch of it.

I don't think they have to be as mentally gone as Aerys II or Brightflame to qualify under the "crazy" side of the Targaryen family tree.[/quote]
Jeez, I've read the books five times each, and a lot of those "facts" cited by the Wikipedia entries do not appear in any of them. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1714107' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.13']Jeez, I've read the books five times each, and a lot of those "facts" cited by the Wikipedia entries do not appear in any of them. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.[/quote]
What, the entries for Daeron and Baelor? Every single one of those details appears in the series, save the details of Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena, which were provided by GRRM for amok's portraits.

ETA: also the bit about renaming the Great Sept in his honour after his death. I assumed it was named after him because he was the king who had it built.
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Uhm, wasn't Bealor the guy who hired a simple mason as High Septon because he was the Smith reborn? And after that, a small boy because he was the father incarnate?
That's preeeety wack to me...

[quote name='israfel070' post='1713904' date='Mar 9 2009, 20.22']Also, has it occurred to anyone that even if Rhaegar's motivation wasn't love toward Lyanna, but was less honorable instead, he still didn't NEED to rape her?[/quote]
Well, I get your point here. But in my far to long post previously, I did say why he might have needed to rape her; Because he had run out of time. He really, really needed a child from her, and I don't think Lyanna would just... You know, let it happen a couple of hundred times a day... So he perhaps [b]had[/b] to rape her, to make the prophecy come true before he needed to go to war (and I think he somehow knew that he was going to die there, so he had to increase the chance of Lyanna giving birth as much as possible).

And for the record, I'm not basing this on Robert's little statement. I'm just saying that the possibilty [b]could[/b] be out there... Of course there's no real evidence, but hey, is there really any evidence that she fathered a child with him [b]willingly[/b] (apart from the crown of roses, which I believe swings for both theories)?
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[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1714120' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.24']What, the entries for Daeron and Baelor? Every single one of those details appears in the series, save the details of Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena, which were provided by GRRM for amok's portraits.

ETA: also the bit about renaming the Great Sept in his honour after his death. I assumed it was named after him because he was the king who had it built.[/quote]
The details about Bealor's appointments of High Septon are the ones that I have problems with, as i don't remember any references to those in the text. Page numbers (or chapter references) would be appreciated. If I'm wrong I will gladly admit it.
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Guest Other-in-law
[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1714169' date='Mar 9 2009, 17.50']Page numbers (or chapter references) would be appreciated. If I'm wrong I will gladly admit it.[/quote]
P 412 US hc aFfC.
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[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1714132' date='Mar 9 2009, 15.31']Well, I get your point here. But in my far to long post previously, I did say why he might have needed to rape her; Because he had run out of time. He really, really needed a child from her, and I don't think Lyanna would just... You know, let it happen a couple of hundred times a day... So he perhaps [b]had[/b] to rape her, to make the prophecy come true before he needed to go to war (and I think he somehow knew that he was going to die there, so he had to increase the chance of Lyanna giving birth as much as possible).

And for the record, I'm not basing this on Robert's little statement. I'm just saying that the possibilty [b]could[/b] be out there... Of course there's no real evidence, but hey, is there really any evidence that she fathered a child with him [b]willingly[/b] (apart from the crown of roses, which I believe swings for both theories)?[/quote]
Where are you getting "a day"? Lyanna was with Rhaegar for over a year, which I assume is the reason Robert speculates that their sexual encounters went into triple digits.

Good point about the crown being meaningful to the other theory... I hadn't really thought about it. Doesn't make as MUCH sense to me as a willing romance though.
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[quote name='the silent speaker' post='1714307' date='Mar 9 2009, 18.30']Your other example was that Rhaegar gave her a rose and three years later she was holding onto a rose, therefore obviously they were the same rose, therefore she cherished Rhaegar enough to hold onto a flower from him for three years. Not a whole lot stronger.[/quote]
Well, when you also consider that there are several dreams and visions highlighting the link between Lyanna and winter roses, and that the ONLY physical roses we EVER see in her possession are an incredibly romantic gift from the most eligible young man on the continent, who reduced her to weeping by playing a pretty song when she was 16, and he absconds with her within a few months of that... it becomes very strong, I'd say, yes.

Aside from rabid bickering, another thought... about the rose growing from a wall in the House of the Undying prophecy. I tend to believe that it refers to Jon himself. Other people think that interpretation doesn't work, because the vision-roses were always specifically related to Lyanna herself. But if we think of vision-roses as [i]gifts Rhaegar gave to her[/i]... then her only son becomes a very viable candidate for that prophecy.
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[quote name='israfel070' post='1713904' date='Mar 9 2009, 14.22']It's not hypocritical because you don't have to give reasons for not loving somebody. You just don't feel anything. However genuine their love for you is (not very in Robert's case, since he was already fathering bastards while he was engaged to her), that does not put responsibility on you to return their feelings.

Also, has it occurred to anyone that even if Rhaegar's motivation wasn't love toward Lyanna, but was less honorable instead, he still didn't NEED to rape her? Even if it's not the ultimate OTP of the series, she was all starry-eyed for him. He could use her willingness. We're not talking about an either/or, legendary romance or degrading assault.[/quote]

Well of course you don't have to give reasons but the fact is Lyanna DID. (That was why i specifically said that it was in her giving that reason that she was hypocritical.) :P
Taken alone her statement gives the impression that she could have feelings for Robert but is resisting due to his apparent inability to stay loyal. But if she is actually in love with Rhaegar, a married man, it seems horribly self righteous of her to pretend that Robert's infidelity is the issue!

It's hardly some massive issue, just a niggle i have (one of the many that R+L induces; adding up to me finding Lyanna quite unlikeable).
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[quote name='Goldaline' post='1714636' date='Mar 10 2009, 11.11']But if she is actually in love with Rhaegar, a married man, it seems horribly self righteous of her to pretend that Robert's infidelity is the issue![/quote]
I think a distinction can be made between on the one hand a man who is in an arranged marriage but from all we hear is otherwise celibate, and on the other hand a man who sleeps with every other woman he sees and drops them without another thought of them the moment he gets bored.

But I am not sure that Lyanna is using Robert's habits as an excuse for not loving him. The quote simply shows that she sees him for what he is with a clear eye, thus strongly implying that she is not in love with him.
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[quote name='A wilding' post='1714710' date='Mar 10 2009, 07.50']I think a distinction can be made between on the one hand a man who is in an arranged marriage but from all we hear is otherwise celibate, and on the other hand a man who sleeps with every other woman he sees and drops them without another thought of them the moment he gets bored.

But I am not sure that Lyanna is using Robert's habits as an excuse for not loving him. The quote simply shows that she sees him for what he is with a clear eye, thus strongly implying that she is not in love with him.[/quote]


It was presented by someone in this thread as Lyanna's reason for not loving Robert... It's been a while since i read the books (i'm just starting a re-read of AGoT) so i can't remember myself, I was responding to what someone else had said.

I certainly agree about that distinction but I am still disappointed that Lyanna would want to be someone's mistress. Someone mentioned in another thread that Westorosi betrothals are far more serious and binding than modern day engagements, in which case not only was Elia betrayed but Lyanna was also doing to Robert what she claimed to fear he would do to her.

(I hadn't actually realised that Robert had fathered bastards while engaged to Lyanna. I thought that it was a bit of clever & tragic dramatic irony that she was the one person he would actually have truly loved & been faithful too. How disappointing.)
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Just a couple of comments on a few things stated in this thread.

First of all Robert is not the only person who mentions the rape of Lyanna in the series. Bran tells Osha of it when in the crypts at Winterfell.

Also, someone earlier wondered why Cat never thought about Lyanna or mentioned her. Well she did. In her discussion with the Kingslayer she mentions how Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna and then when charging off to King's Landing.

Someone mentions how Ned never seems angry when he thinks of Rhaegar. True, but he never gets angry when he thinks of Aerys either and we know for certain what Aerys did to his father and brother. So Ned's lack of hatred is not a sign he didn't dislike Rhaegar.

Lyanna died when she was 16 so she was probably 14 at the Harrenhal tourney.
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[quote name='Ser Hot Pie' post='1714107' date='Mar 9 2009, 18.13']Jeez, I've read the books five times each, and a lot of those "facts" cited by the Wikipedia entries do not appear in any of them. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.[/quote]
Try reading more carefully, then. :thumbsup:
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[quote name='Winter Crow' post='1714132' date='Mar 9 2009, 18.31']So he perhaps [b]had[/b] to rape her, to make the prophecy come true before he needed to go to war (and I think he somehow knew that he was going to die there, so he had to increase the chance of Lyanna giving birth as much as possible).[/quote]
I don't think he thought he was going to die at the Trident. His comments to Jaime don't sound to me like the words of a man convinced he's going to his doom.
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[quote name='bacchys' post='1714839' date='Mar 10 2009, 16.24']I don't think he thought he was going to die at the Trident. His comments to Jaime don't sound to me like the words of a man convinced he's going to his doom.[/quote]

I've always just taken those words as a way to get Jaime out of his face. And it apparently worked, since Jaime didn't bug him anymore about going to the Trident with him. But then again, I stand without evidence.

I guess it all depends on the prophecy... Again. Was he meant to die in combat? Was he supposed to win some glorious battle?
It's hard to say. I really hope we get to see that prophecy one day...

[quote]Good point about the crown being meaningful to the other theory... I hadn't really thought about it. Doesn't make as MUCH sense to me as a willing romance though.[/quote]

Well, I have to agree. It would make more sense for her to cling onto it if it were a willing romance... Yet who's to say it wasn't? Perhaps Rhaegar did love her, but just [b]had[/b] to rape her, even though it must have pained them both greatly.
Perhaps she still remembered the good old days of their romance, and clings onto them? Or perhaps she understands why he had to rape her (to fulfill a world-saving prophecy), and still love him even through what he did?
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