"Blackfyre" Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1727466' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.49']One thing about khopesh blades that isn't being brought up: they're [i]short[/i]. Two feet or so, tops. [i]Arakhs[/i] are long, on the other hand.[/quote] Don't arakhs come in different sizes? When Dany first meets Belwas, she makes mention of him having a [i]long[/i] curving arakh. [quote]O.K. wich one do you like?[/quote] 7 seems like the best choice of the links you have supplied. [quote]It really seems strange to me that anyone can get a khopesh or any pronounced s-curve out of "half-sword half-scythe". Do all of the khopesh advocates actually think GRRM doesn't know what a scythe is?[/quote] I believe, and this thread further proves, most people are confused (as am I) when when it comes to swords in general. A lot of people [i]think[/i] they know what they are talking about, yet mistakes are easily made in regards to history of swords, what classification a sword should fall under, etc. GRRM just might fall into this category. There is no doubt he has a particular blade in mind for the arakh. Yet, what it is remains to be seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 BH, All [i]arakhs[/i] are described as long from what I can see. The very first description of them mentions that they're long, in fact. The khopesh existed at a time before cavalry existed. It was a footman's weapon, basically. Doubtless the limitations of bronze are another reason for why they're rather short. The one variant on an [i]arakh[/i] we see is Zollo the Fat's, which is consistently described as being "huge". To me, this means Zollo's [i]arakh[/i] is more a talwar, which is basically a variety of shamshir with a thicker, heavier blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Blackfyre" Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1730866' date='Mar 23 2009, 19.36']BH, All [i]arakhs[/i] are described as long from what I can see. The very first description of them mentions that they're long, in fact.[/quote] Hmm... why wouldn't she just say arakh then? Why add the word [i]large[/i] when making reference to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Blackfyre Heir' post='1730864' date='Mar 23 2009, 18.34']I believe, and this thread further proves, most people are confused (as am I) when when it comes to swords in general. A lot of people [i]think[/i] they know what they are talking about, yet mistakes are easily made in regards to history of swords, what classification a sword should fall under, etc. GRRM just might fall into this category. There is no doubt he has a particular blade in mind for the arakh. Yet, what it is remains to be seen...[/quote] It's not even a question of his knowledge of swords. He described what he means by comparing it to a scythe. Therefore it's a question of whether he understands the difference between a sickle and a scythe; two tools that are directly associated with iconic and extremely well-known images...the hammer and sickle of communism, and the scythe of the grim reaper. That some random people on the internet might not know the difference is one thing, but it's hard to believe that someone with GRRM's mastery of the English language would be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venardhi Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 A scythe is very unlike a sword though. The blade is mounted perpendicular to the haft for one, and the blade is on the inside edge. A scythe was sometimes modified into a pole-arm, but it wasn't called just a scythe anymore at that point. Based on this knowledge, I can only assume that Martin meant for there to be some kind of distinctly abnormal shape to these swords and "scythe" was the word that came to mind for him for one reason or another without thinking too heavily on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I doubt the comparison had anything to do with the handle, just the general outlines of the blade. As such, there is a whole family of swords with long C-curves that fit the description well enough, without jumping into territory that doesn't match at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venardhi Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Most real scythe blades are pretty straight, it seems like an odd comparison to make just to establish that it is a curved blade. At this point, I'd say just wait for Martin to make the call, since we're all grasping at the few hints he gave and really have no way of knowing one way or the other. In my mind I see a big s curve, sometimes with a jagged bottom curve, sometimes not. Other people see nothing more than a samshir or scimitar or dao or whatever. This argument is pretty pointless without new evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 BH, The word is "long". And that's our very first description of [i]arakhs[/i], and possibly even Daenerys's first real look at [i]arakhs[/i] when drawn, so she describes what she sees: a long, curved weapon of steel. Doesn't mean there are short [i]arakhs[/i], or that long [i]arakhs[/i] are unusual. It just means that the only description we ever get for [i]arakhs[/i] is that they're a long weapon, not short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 I'm inclined to agree with Ran, here. Keep in mind the arakhs are the favored weapon of a culture whose entire existence centers around their horses. They will be sitting fairly high up, and will need a weapon with some reach to be able to strike down at someone on foot, or at other riders. To use something like a short sword effectively, you'd have to be right up on your opponent and that's just not wise. So you're looking at something with at least a longsword's length, if not more. Probably something just alittle longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Venardhi' post='1731169' date='Mar 24 2009, 01.05']This argument is pretty pointless without new evidence.[/quote] Has that ever stopped us before? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Blackfyre" Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote]The word is "long". And that's our very first description of [i]arakhs[/i], and possibly even Daenerys's first real look at [i]arakhs[/i] when drawn, so she describes what she sees: a long, curved weapon of steel.[/quote] Actually, Dany first see's arakhs drawn at her wedding. Although her description of the weapon has the word long in it, I take it to be a general description of the arakh itself. This is the first time we learn of the weapon. So GRRM is giving us a general idea of what the thing looks like. By the time she meets Belwas, she has ridden with the khalasar for quite some time. Witnessed and seen several arakhs drawn and used in battle. So, I still believe when she sees Belwas' arakh his is longer than most. [quote]Doesn't mean there are short [i]arakhs[/i], or that long [i]arakhs[/i] are unusual. It just means that the only description we ever get for [i]arakhs[/i] is that they're a long weapon, not short.[/quote] Yes, I agree the weapon is not short. Since, like others have pointed out, they use it primarily while on horseback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Venardhi' post='1731169' date='Mar 24 2009, 01.05']Most real scythe blades are pretty straight, it seems like an odd comparison to make just to establish that it is a curved blade. At this point, I'd say just wait for Martin to make the call, since we're all grasping at the few hints he gave and really have no way of knowing one way or the other. In my mind I see a big s curve, sometimes with a jagged bottom curve, sometimes not.[/quote] The relative degree of scythe curvature isn't the point, it's that they have any curve at all, unlike Westerosi swords. Given that he describes arakhs as curved and scythe-like, it seems that he's talking about [url="http://www.eskimo.com/~daylight/Pix/MM/scythe.gif"]curved scythes[/url], no? Using the relative straightness of [i]some[/i] scythes to jump to an S-curve...which is completely un-scythelike....is like claiming that since Rhaegar's eye colour is said to be lilac in one place, but implied to be purple in another, than we can pick whatever colour we choose, and giving him orange eyes is an equally valid interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Hey, Valyrian-Steel. Any word from GRRM yet on which of the various candidates is closest to his vision of an Arakh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 When discussing GRRM's potential knowledge of weaponry we should realize that he does seem to take some serious liberties with regards to 'historical accuracy', so to speak. Longclaw is an excellent example of this, as is Ice. Trying to fit these swords into any kind of Oakeshott typology is certainly a challenge, and trying to figure out what their purpose really is is something else altogether. Not to mention that the fight scenes we see in the books aren't exactly the most 'accurate' in their reflection of western martial arts, for that matter. All this is obviously his prerogative, but I'm just saying that however 'realistic' many things may seem, we should keep such things in mind. Just think about the construction of Ice and Longclaw, for instance. Three fullers on Longclaw, for instance, all running the length of the blade? I would have expected a design that would allow for some more rigidity so it could be used better for thrusting as well as cutting, making it better against armor? But the thrust seems to not be something that is used in Westeros much, despite it being the only technique at all useful against heavily armored opponents (such as knights). Anyway, I'm very torn on the idea of Arakhs. I guess I come down on them being basically scimitars. I feel like they should be more exotic, but maybe a curved scimitar is all they really are, as has been discussed at great length already. As far as Hadhafang goes, what really bugs me about it is the utter lack of any guard. It may well not originally have been a cavalry weapon, which is all well and good. But come on, having your fingers cut off when your opponents sword runs down yours just seems like exceptionally bad planning. Those little tiny things jutting out do not count. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 [quote name='Elrostar' post='1744060' date='Apr 3 2009, 16.19']When discussing GRRM's potential knowledge of weaponry we should realize that he does seem to take some serious liberties with regards to 'historical accuracy', so to speak. Longclaw is an excellent example of this, as is Ice. Trying to fit these swords into any kind of Oakeshott typology is certainly a challenge, and trying to figure out what their purpose really is is something else altogether. Not to mention that the fight scenes we see in the books aren't exactly the most 'accurate' in their reflection of western martial arts, for that matter. All this is obviously his prerogative, but I'm just saying that however 'realistic' many things may seem, we should keep such things in mind. Just think about the construction of Ice and Longclaw, for instance. Three fullers on Longclaw, for instance, all running the length of the blade? I would have expected a design that would allow for some more rigidity so it could be used better for thrusting as well as cutting, making it better against armor? But the thrust seems to not be something that is used in Westeros much, despite it being the only technique at all useful against heavily armored opponents (such as knights).[/quote] I've thought about that as well, and yes, the design of Longclaw doesn't quite make sense if we attempt to forge it out of normal steel. The problem is, they aren't forged out of normal steel. Valyrian Steel is the wild card here, and it is far stronger and sharper than normal steel, while being lighter, due to it's magical nature. The nature of the metal may allow for Longclaw to be used quite effectively as a thrusting weapon, despite the fullers. So, as far as that goes, I'm inclined to think George did his homework and designed those weapons with the Valyrian Steel aspect in mind. Valyrian Steel may even be capable of cutting regular steel, allowing for slashes to be effective as well. To my knowledge, there isn't a piece of armor made of Valyrian steel. I wonder why. Though, what was wrong with the construction of Ice? [quote]As far as Hadhafang goes, what really bugs me about it is the utter lack of any guard. It may well not originally have been a cavalry weapon, which is all well and good. But come on, having your fingers cut off when your opponents sword runs down yours just seems like exceptionally bad planning. Those little tiny things jutting out do not count. Seriously.[/quote] Aww, don't bring Hadhafang back up again. The premise of that entire argument was that [i]because[/i] a sword was made for a fantasy series, it therefore couldn't be realistic as well. Or we shouldn't expect it to be realistic. I begged to differ, thinking that an author as deeply entrenched in history as Martin, or someone going for as realistic an atmosphere as possible as they did in those LOTR movies, would do their research and design weapons that would be functional as well as "pretty." Besides, if you know how to block properly, the chances of your opponent's sword sliding down the blade are pretty slim to begin with, at least in my experiences. I'll admit, though, my experiences are based mostly on my training with the Japanese sword and on foot, so I've no experiences with horseback fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobin Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1725352' date='Mar 19 2009, 08.22'][url="http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg"]http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg[/url][/quote] I liked #6. [quote name='ogbebaba' post='1728777' date='Mar 21 2009, 16.34']O.K. wich one do you like? [b]1[/b] [url="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelbone/Philippine%20Edged%20Weapons%20Forum/Bicol2.jpg"]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelb...orum/Bicol2.jpg[/url] [b]2[/b] [url="http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narikoswords_painted_together.jpg"]http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narik...ed_together.jpg[/url] [b]3[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06/curved-double-grind.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06...ouble-grind.jpg[/url] [b]4[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jodys-fantasy-kuhkri.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...tasy-kuhkri.jpg[/url] [b]5[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-05/fantasy-cutlass.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-0...asy-cutlass.jpg[/url] [b]6[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-06/seaward-katana.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-0...ward-katana.jpg[/url] [b]7[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-06/curved-angular-blade.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-...gular-blade.jpg[/url] [b]8[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jody%27s-heavy-sabre.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...heavy-sabre.jpg[/url] [b]9[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-07/single-edge-curved.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-0...edge-curved.jpg[/url] [b]10[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-06/amra-fantasy-saber.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-...ntasy-saber.jpg[/url] [b]11[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/curved-saber-w-fuller.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...er-w-fuller.jpg[/url] [b]12[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg[/url] [b]13[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06/short-angular-fantasy-sword.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06...ntasy-sword.jpg[/url] [b]14[/b] [url="http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg"]http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg[/url] and here is something interesting i found in my search [url="http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1"]http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1[/url] "long claw"[/quote] Oh my.... :drool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrellius Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I've always envisioned a very rough, crude cavalry sabre. Long enough to fight from horseback but not too long to be unwieldy on foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 :drool: [quote name='ogbebaba' post='1728777' date='Mar 21 2009, 14.34']O.K. wich one do you like? [b]1[/b] [url="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelbone/Philippine%20Edged%20Weapons%20Forum/Bicol2.jpg"]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelb...orum/Bicol2.jpg[/url] [b]2[/b] [url="http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narikoswords_painted_together.jpg"]http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narik...ed_together.jpg[/url] [b]3[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06/curved-double-grind.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06...ouble-grind.jpg[/url] [b]4[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jodys-fantasy-kuhkri.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...tasy-kuhkri.jpg[/url] [b]5[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-05/fantasy-cutlass.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-0...asy-cutlass.jpg[/url] [b]6[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-06/seaward-katana.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-0...ward-katana.jpg[/url] [b]7[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-06/curved-angular-blade.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-...gular-blade.jpg[/url] [b]8[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jody%27s-heavy-sabre.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...heavy-sabre.jpg[/url] [b]9[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-07/single-edge-curved.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-0...edge-curved.jpg[/url] [b]10[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-06/amra-fantasy-saber.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-...ntasy-saber.jpg[/url] [b]11[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/curved-saber-w-fuller.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...er-w-fuller.jpg[/url] [b]12[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg[/url] [b]13[/b] [url="http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06/short-angular-fantasy-sword.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06...ntasy-sword.jpg[/url] [b]14[/b] [url="http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg"]http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg[/url] and here is something interesting i found in my search [url="http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1"]http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1[/url] "long claw"[/quote] I love and want them all. :drool: When I think of an Arakh though, what I picture is closest to a longer version of #7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I wonder if Valyrian-Steel has gotten a reply back from GRRM. I know they emailed him about it, it'd be nice to finally get the final word on the arakh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrostar Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Here's what bothers me about having the deep fullers in Longclaw (and presumably also in other Valyrian swords, although I'd have to check descriptions of them). If Valyrian steel is really all that light, you'd want to make thrusting swords out of it if you were going to be using it against heavily armored foes. Because that's what these swords would be used against. I mean, you would also want it to be effective against lightly armored enemies, but having the versatility to make it function well against someone in full plate armor would really require that the thrust be a major part of the make-up of the sword. And for that you really want something that's got some rigidity to it. Because it's going to be about thrusting, probably using two hands to really put some weight behind it. Now maybe the great benefit of Valyrian steel is that it will let you actually penetrate plate armor at places other than the joints, but you're really going to want to do that with the point and not the edge. So I guess I see Longclaw (and any other Valyrian bastard swords, or longswords that might be employed by knights in general) as being not of type XIIa or XIIIa, but rather of type XVIa, or maybe even type XX? But I'm perhaps interpreting these thing too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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