The Pope thinks condoms increase the spread of HIV/AIDS

[AverageGuy]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1723184' date='Mar 17 2009, 21.32']Not to argue against you, but just to clarify one tiny thing (I admit, I'm nitpicking here): [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3653800.ece[/url][/quote]
I don't think EHK's wrong there. Catholicism's a denomination, Christianity's the religion. IMO, the article's premise is flawed because it chose Islam in its entirety and one denomination of Christianity. It might work if Shiite or Sunni Muslims outnumbered Catholics (though even those two have subsects).

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1723184' date='Mar 17 2009, 21.32']Not to argue against you, but just to clarify one tiny thing (I admit, I'm nitpicking here): [url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/worl...icle3653800.ece[/url][/quote]

Interesting, but doesn't contradict what I said. (Christianity is still bigger than Islam and Catholicism is still bigger than all the other games in Christianity)

[The Khaleesi]

Interesting news item, followed by 2 women talking about the issue.
One of them becomes quite unhinged IMO!! She seems to suggest that condoms DO cause more AIDS.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUuUxe8mfCM&eurl=http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit2"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUuUxe8mfCM...my_videos_edit2[/url]

[Myshkin]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1723164' date='Mar 17 2009, 19.19']Everything I just said about the Pope and the Catholic church's condom policy, apply to them as well. Happy?[/quote]
Happier.

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1723174' date='Mar 17 2009, 19.26']Christianity is the biggest religion in the world. Catholicism is bigger than all other Christian denominations put together. Unlike most religions, Catholicism has an strict hierarchy and established leader who ostensibly speaks for the whole faith. When he speaks its going to get more attention than a group of Imams who may or may not represent significant portions of the Islamic faith and a sub-group representing ultra orthodox Jews. Go figure. It'd be one thing if the criticism was unfair or excessive, its not. If you're arguing that these other groups deserve more condemnation, fair enough and I'd agree. But the Catholic church still deserves a hell of alot more itself, so I hardly see the problem.[/quote]
I'm not saying the Pope's position, or the position of the Church, is not reprehensible. What I am saying is that 1) The Catholic Church is not the sole owner of that position; and 2) We can attack said position without the vitriol that is offensive to Catholics.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Myshkin' post='1723257' date='Mar 17 2009, 22.24']I'm not saying the Pope's position, or the position of the Church, is not reprehensible. What I am saying is that 1) The Catholic Church is not the sole owner of that position; and 2) We can attack said position without the vitriol that is offensive to Catholics.[/quote]

I grew up Catholic. I get a 'get out of jail free' card when I shit on the church. And I could give a shit about offending anyone in it. There are two types of Catholics when it comes to this issue. Those who disagree with the church's official position and those who should be shat on. The first group has no reason to be offended by this vitriol and every sane person in the world should strive to insult and offend the latter group.

[Adelle Tully]

My two cents:

I think the Pope is viewing condoms as a means to say "hey, unmarried sex is okay" and to avoid procreation...(well duh). In saying this, condoms can encourage people think they are protected from aids (the condoms are not foolproof, although they can be effective) and choose to have sex.

The Pope, being the Pope, OF COURSE he's going to advocate abstinence, chastity, and being faithful to your partner. Geez, BIG suprise there!

Honestly, if people would listen in regards to keeping it in their pants, being faithful, etc, HIV/AIDs wouldn't be going around like wildfire. You can't look at a person cross-eyed and contract HIV/AIDs. So I find some truth in what the Pope says in regards to that. Keep yourself safe and keep it in your pants or keep it clean with a single partner.

I don't necessarily agree with his view on condoms, especially in regards to them being used when one partner has it and the other doesn't.

And to those of you who know you're doing this (and you'll know because you'll probably be offended by the following statement): [b]Way to take things out of context and use them for your own bashing purposes! You've done it again![/b]

[Myshkin]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1723386' date='Mar 17 2009, 22.29']I grew up Catholic. I get a 'get out of jail free' card when I shit on the church. And I could give a shit about offending anyone in it. There are two types of Catholics when it comes to this issue. Those who disagree with the church's official position and those who should be shat on. The first group has no reason to be offended by this vitriol and every sane person in the world should strive to insult and offend the latter group.[/quote]
I disagree with many of the Church's official positions, but it still offends me when people shit on the Church. It especial offends me when all blame is laid at the feet of the Catholics merely because the Church is an easier target to hit. I hate the "look how evil the Pope is" crap, when many, many other groups, both religious and secular, hold to the same stupid views.

[Ocean of Notions]

[quote name='Adelle Tully' post='1723391' date='Mar 18 2009, 01.38']My two cents:

I think the Pope is viewing condoms as a means to say "hey, unmarried sex is okay" and to avoid procreation...(well duh). In saying this, condoms can encourage people think they are protected from aids (the condoms are not foolproof, although they can be effective) and choose to have sex.

The Pope, being the Pope, OF COURSE he's going to advocate abstinence, chastity, and being faithful to your partner. Geez, BIG suprise there!

Honestly, if people would listen in regards to keeping it in their pants, being faithful, etc, HIV/AIDs wouldn't be going around like wildfire. You can't look at a person cross-eyed and contract HIV/AIDs. So I find some truth in what the Pope says in regards to that. Keep yourself safe and keep it in your pants or keep it clean with a single partner.

I don't necessarily agree with his view on condoms, especially in regards to them being used when one partner has it and the other doesn't.

And to those of you who know you're doing this (and you'll know because you'll probably be offended by the following statement): [b]Way to take things out of context and use them for your own bashing purposes! You've done it again![/b][/quote]

People's problem with the Pope's statement is that it ignores reality. You can preach all you like, but the truth of the matter is that people are going to screw no matter what. They've done it before the invention of condoms and they will keep on doing it. The other issue is that the Pope's words and attitude towards contraceptives have vast ramifications. There are missionaries in Africa discouraging the use of contraceptives. The reality is that these people belong to a totally different cultural than Western Christiandom. They're not going to easily give up their [i]cultural practices[/i] and [i]understandings[/i] because a few missionaries talked at them about the Bible. The Church's anti-condom stance is basically perpetuating the spread of an incurable disease.

[tenalpia]

I think the point in this particular case is that he is saying that condoms should not even be used within a marriage where one partner is infected - even if the couple are married it is preferable that abstinence is used rather than condoms: this seems particularly harsh!

[The Khaleesi]

[quote name='tenalpia' post='1723499' date='Mar 18 2009, 21.11']I think the point in this particular case is that he is saying that condoms should not even be used within a marriage where one partner is infected - even if the couple are married it is preferable that abstinence is used rather than condoms: this seems particularly harsh![/quote]

exactly Tenalpia - that is what he is saying.

[The Khaleesi]

[quote name='Adelle Tully' post='1723391' date='Mar 18 2009, 18.38']My two cents:

I think the Pope is viewing condoms as a means to say "hey, unmarried sex is okay" and to avoid procreation...(well duh). In saying this, condoms can encourage people think they are protected from aids (the condoms are not foolproof, although they can be effective) and choose to have sex.

The Pope, being the Pope, OF COURSE he's going to advocate abstinence, chastity, and being faithful to your partner. Geez, BIG suprise there!

Honestly, if people would listen in regards to keeping it in their pants, being faithful, etc, HIV/AIDs wouldn't be going around like wildfire. You can't look at a person cross-eyed and contract HIV/AIDs. So I find some truth in what the Pope says in regards to that. Keep yourself safe and keep it in your pants or keep it clean with a single partner.

I don't necessarily agree with his view on condoms, especially in regards to them being used when one partner has it and the other doesn't.

And to those of you who know you're doing this (and you'll know because you'll probably be offended by the following statement): [b]Way to take things out of context and use them for your own bashing purposes! You've done it again![/b][/quote]

But why can't people be promiscuous if they want to? As long as they practise safe sex and use condoms, they won't be spreading AIDS or STDs. Hell, they don't even need to be promiscuous. What's wrong with people having sex before marriage? Sex can be a lot of fun. And condoms are extremely effective at preventing people getting AIDS.

<<Conclusive evidence from extensive research shows that correct use of condoms every time one has sex significantly reduces the risk of HIV transmission.

The male latex condom is the most efficient and available technology to reduce the sexual transmission of HIV and other sexually transmitted infections. The female condom is increasingly available and is equally effective in reducing the sexual transmission of HIV. Condoms have played a decisive role in HIV prevention efforts in many countries. Both male and female condoms are a main component of comprehensive strategies to reduce risks of sexual exposure to HIV. >>
[url="http://www.unaids.org/en/PolicyAndPractice/Prevention/Condoms/"]http://www.unaids.org/en/PolicyAndPractice...ention/Condoms/[/url]

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='tenalpia' post='1723499' date='Mar 18 2009, 09.11']I think the point in this particular case is that he is saying that condoms should not even be used within a marriage where one partner is infected - even if the couple are married it is preferable that abstinence is used rather than condoms: this seems particularly harsh![/quote]


Yes, this has been confirmed. When one party in a marriage is infected, the Catholic church still opposes condom use to protect the other part. Which means they create a situation where both parties are doomed to death and eventual children will have to fend for themselves. If this is not stupidity and cruelty I don't know what it is.


From BBC:

[quote]Some 22 million people are infected with HIV in sub-Saharan Africa, according to UN figures for 2007.

This amounts to about two-thirds of the global total.[/quote]

This is not a situation that can be prevented by abstinence. This situation needs to be tackled NOW and the only contraceptive that stops HIV/AIDS is condoms. Why not let it save lives?

Whether the church wants it or not, people are going to have sex. It's deluded to think otherwise and an extremely dangerous to just preach to people to "not do it". They might fall for temptation once in a lifetime and that is all it takes. A death sentence for them, their spouse and possibly also children.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Adelle Tully' post='1723391' date='Mar 18 2009, 00.38']I think the Pope is viewing condoms as a means to say "hey, unmarried sex is okay" and to avoid procreation...(well duh). In saying this, condoms can encourage people think they are protected from aids (the condoms are not foolproof, although they can be effective) and choose to have sex.

The Pope, being the Pope, OF COURSE he's going to advocate abstinence, chastity, and being faithful to your partner. Geez, BIG suprise there!

Honestly, if people would listen in regards to keeping it in their pants, being faithful, etc, HIV/AIDs wouldn't be going around like wildfire. You can't look at a person cross-eyed and contract HIV/AIDs. So I find some truth in what the Pope says in regards to that. Keep yourself safe and keep it in your pants or keep it clean with a single partner.

I don't necessarily agree with his view on condoms, especially in regards to them being used when one partner has it and the other doesn't.

And to those of you who know you're doing this (and you'll know because you'll probably be offended by the following statement): [b]Way to take things out of context and use them for your own bashing purposes! You've done it again![/b][/quote]

And if everyone 'Just said no' we wouldn't need a war on drugs. The Pope is a smart guy. And if he's not, he has smart people around him. And if he doesn't, he fucking has google. He knows that urging abstinence has no significant impact on rates of sex out of wedlock. He knows that unprotected sex ASTRONOMICALLY increases the chance of contracting STD's. He knows that Africa is being completely ravaged by AIDS, killing tens of millions of people. He knows that his words will contribute to the continued misinformation about AIDS on the continent and will encourage many devout African Catholics to endanger their lives. He knows this and does this anyway. In light of all of this it doesn't matter if the Pope or the church believes promoting condoms is implicitly encouraging promiscuity. It doesn't matter if they believe that rubbers are an unnatural and unlawful block against 'god's gift' of children. Because his 'advice' and the church's policy are still fucking killing people. By the godamned shipload.

It doesn't matter how sincere or genuine his beliefs are. How well intentioned they might be. That they represent centuries of Catholic doctrine. They fucking ignore reality and its killing people. Nothing is being taken out of context. In light of reality, his statements and the church's policy are an abomination. An unforgivable one. He does not get a pass for tradition, sincerity, or history. I don't give the Taliban a pass because its a no brainer that they'd want to stone women not wearing a Burka. I'm sure as fuck not gonna give the Pope or the church a pass on this simply because their disgusting behavior is predictable. Everyone who supports, promotes, or encourages this policy is complicit in the deaths of thousands if not more. That absolutely means the Pope and the Catholic church as an institution.

[quote]I disagree with many of the Church's official positions, but it still offends me when people shit on the Church. It especial offends me when all blame is laid at the feet of the Catholics merely because the Church is an easier target to hit. I hate the "look how evil the Pope is" crap, when many, many other groups, both religious and secular, hold to the same stupid views.[/quote]

The church as an institution supports this policy. Everyone should drop their drawers and take a big heaping shit on it. That shit need not cover every individual catholic whose feelings may differ on the matter, but it sure as fuck should coat the church itself from head to toe. Yes there are other people just as stupid. But as is the way with EVERYTHING, the biggest and most prominent ones tend to get the most attention. The Pope and the church aren't being singled out because of some irrational hatred of Catholicism, but because they're by far the biggest game in town when it comes to proponents of this nonsense.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1723523' date='Mar 18 2009, 05.11']Whether the church wants it or not, people are going to have sex. It's deluded to think otherwise[/quote]

This applies to like EVERYTHING the Church tells you not to do.

Hell, this applies to almost everything ANY religion tells you not to do.

[Gerold Hightower]

As for why the Catholic church condemns sex outside marriage (and homosexuality), it's about protecting the institution of the family as the building block of society.

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually, it seems the Catholic church is one of the biggest and most influential, if not the single most biggest and most influential group to not only discourage people from using condoms to protect themselves from AIDS but also spread misinformation and falsehood.

From the Times:
[quote]In 2003, Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, maintained in an interview with the BBC that HIV could pass through condoms.[/quote]

I cannot find anywhere that the Pope disagreed with him here. WHO were headwalling themselves, but no strong denial of this falsehood seems to have come from the Catholic church, as Mr Trujillo was also a highly respected bishop and one of the possible candidates for papalhood when Emperor Palpatinegot the spot.



[quote]Not sure if this has come up yet but probably not. The issue with condoms as a means of preventing the spread of HIV is that people in poor countries use them more than once. Throwing away something ostensibly still perfectly functional isn't something you do when you are poor.[/quote]

This is why education is so important. And support money being spent on supplying condoms to the poor.

[Filippa Eilhart]

I don't understand what people expect him to do? Change the church rules?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1723539' date='Mar 18 2009, 05.32']Actually, it seems the Catholic church is one of the biggest and most influential, if not the single most biggest and most influential group to not only discourage people from using condoms to protect themselves from AIDS but also spread misinformation and falsehood.[/quote]

Local culture in Africa plays a FAR bigger role. Everything from "Using condoms is unmanly" to "Fucking a virgin cures AIDS".

[Seventh Pup]

[quote]I don't understand what people expect him to do? Change the church rules?[/quote]
Hold the Vatican III. Understand that of taking care of his flock includes confronting the reality of AIDS.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1723553' date='Mar 18 2009, 10.54']Local culture in Africa plays a FAR bigger role. Everything from "Using condoms is unmanly" to "Fucking a virgin cures AIDS".[/quote]


Oh I agree, but ideally, you'd like the Catholic church to be a helping hand, not another destructive influence as you'd think they'd care about preserving human life and reduce suffering.