BSG Thread #12 (or 13)

[oneeye]

I think all the caprica flashbacks were shameless plugs for the next series.

Kinda sad the first two brilliant years went to two weaker 'spiritual' years, still a decent ending for the weird new direction they took in the later years.

[Crazydog7]

If would have been so much better they had jumped from New Caprica directly to the "real" earth cut out all the fat you know?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

So I hate to say this, but the Season 4 substitute-finale for Babylon 5 ("The Deconstruction of Falling Stars") was actually better than the BSG series finale and it deals much with the same thing - an overview of what happens much later in the hundreds, thousands, and millions of years following the events of the narrative.

[Brude]

[quote name='Aemon Stark' post='1727979' date='Mar 20 2009, 23.26']We don't know that they went completely back to basics, just that they sent the ships off into the sun. I know what choice I'd make between an increasingly cramped and delapidated space vessel and an unspoiled planet.[/quote]
They gave up all their tech. Those ships could have been the basis for setting up major settlements all over the world - each one has a power source inside that can produce more energy than all the power plants currently on planet earth combined. The science they know, the institutional knowledge of how shit works, etc. is simply too damn valuable. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[quote name='Aemon Stark' post='1727979' date='Mar 20 2009, 23.26']I don't think Starbuck was a ghost per se. I liked that her fate was left largely unexplained.[/quote]
Call her a corporeal spirit then - or maybe she ascended to an angelic state in her death (like Elijah) and was sent back for a specific purpose.

[quote name='Crazydog7' post='1727983' date='Mar 20 2009, 23.28']I actually liked that a lot besides the flashbacks being yet again completely pointless.[/quote]
The flashbacks were all about who the characters were, their greater backstory before the time of the mini-Series so that we better understand who they became now. Honestly, they are some of my favorite parts of the last two episodes. Some very good stuff, IMO.

And going back to the lame description of the humans and the proto-humans on earth being genetically compatible. The simplest and most logical explanation would have been that humanity and these beings are related - that humans are evolved, uplifted, whatever from these same beings. There's no way to know what world the humans on Caprica originally came from considering how there is a sense that this has happened before and will happen again. How many times, how many worlds - how did it begin? That could have been easily explained away and still made the science more logical.

[Aemon Stark]

Maybe I feel myself more of a casual viewer at this point, but I'm not sure why the lack of explanations about absolutely everything really matters. In fact, I'd argue that *any* answer to the question of "who orchestrated everything" is going to sound overly simple and probably unsatisfying. It's left to your interpretation in the end (and I'm pretty sure that was Head Six and Head Baltar in the last scene). Though I might add that Head Six's comments about complex systems eventually jumping the cycle as a matter of probability can easily be interpreted that, ultimately, there is no active, outside force that's orchestrated "everything".

I also really enjoyed the emphasis on character this past season - it's about frakking time. While I do hold the first two seasons (or season and a half) as some of the best parts of BSG, they are plot-driven to the virtual exclusion of detailed characterization. The archetypes work very, very well, but they were never sufficient to sustain the series when the plot momentum ebbed or we were faced with a vaguely "stand alone" episode. It's the little details about each character that matter, though, and they finally started developing these toward the end.

[Aemon Stark]

[quote name='Brude' post='1728158' date='Mar 21 2009, 01.37']The flashbacks were all about who the characters were, their greater backstory before the time of the mini-Series so that we better understand who they became now. Honestly, they are some of my favorite parts of the last two episodes. Some very good stuff, IMO.[/quote]

:agree:

The flashbacks arguably could've been explored earlier in the series, but compressing them all at the end is maybe more effective.

[mcbigski]

[quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1728102' date='Mar 21 2009, 00.11']Okay. Thats what I thought. And its such a huge copout......very disappointing.

I actually don't mind the time they spent on characterization the past few episodes. I enjoyed that. But it was with the assurance that they would actually give some answers in the end. To just resolve it all with God....that sucks.[/quote]

No problem with all of the god stuff and that Kara has been an angel since she died. It's been clear from the first season that God exists and was guiding things along (since the episode 'The Hand of God' at least). I'm sure a lot people see it as some sort of cheap deus ex machina, but they've really been building to that all along.

The bit with the proto-humans on earth was a bit disappointing. Better would be if they were looking at Neaderthals and then we have the implication that the descendants of the humans and cylons wiped them out. Though with Hera being Eve, maybe that actually happened anyway. And giving up all of their techonology just because Lee wanted to be idealistic was pretty stupid. Would have made more sense if the angels told them to do it.

Not sure that Tyrol ended up in Britain either - there were hominids up that way during the interglacial periods, no?...and he was going someplace to live entirely alone, maybe Iceland. Still, it seemed like a fitting end for him. Though I'm sure 150k years ago, earth's continents weren't quite in the same configuration, there may or not have been land bridges between N. and S. America, Alaska and Asia, Britain and Europe, Indonesia and Australia etc.

The two endings that got to me the most were the centurions taking off in the baseship - just seemed right that they'd have a chance to be free, and Baltar's. Some of the flashbacks in the second half of the episodes were sort of a waste of time, especially Roslin's and Adama's (other than the bits with the Tighs), but I really liked the idea of Baltar deciding to settle down and be happy to cultivate the earth. Could just be that Tigh and Baltar have been my two favorite characters since the start though.

[quote]Did they even know Cylons had skinjobs at that point? Why would they ask him?[/quote]

That was just to calibrate the polygraph. It was obviously a ridiculous question set up to elicit a truthful negative response. Clear as day.

Also, it was kind of strange that Cavil and his skinjob buddies didn't have any sort of tactical gear. Not sure why Simon needed a sharp suit and tie to go and kill some humans.

All in all, I think it was a decent wrap up, with the caveats listed above. I do think the high point of the final season was the mutiny arc though, that shit was intense.

Edited to Add: Seemed clear to me that Starbuck was a head character that everyone could see.

[Crazydog7]

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1728171' date='Mar 21 2009, 00.45']No problem with all of the god stuff and that Kara has been an angel since she died. It's been clear from the first season that God exists and was guiding things along (since the episode 'The Hand of God' at least). I'm sure a lot people see it as some sort of cheap deus ex machina, but they've really been building to that all along.

The bit with the proto-humans on earth was a bit disappointing. Better would be if they were looking at Neaderthals and then we have the implication that the descendants of the humans and cylons wiped them out. Though with Hera being Eve, maybe that actually happened anyway. And giving up all of their techonology just because Lee wanted to be idealistic was pretty stupid. Would have made more sense if the angels told them to do it.

Not sure that Tyrol ended up in Britain either - there were hominids up that way during the interglacial periods, no?...and he was going someplace to live entirely alone, maybe Iceland. Still, it seemed like a fitting end for him. Though I'm sure 150k years ago, earth's continents weren't quite in the same configuration, there may or not have been land bridges between N. and S. America, Alaska and Asia, Britain and Europe, Indonesia and Australia etc.

The two endings that got to me the most were the centurions taking off in the baseship - just seemed right that they'd have a chance to be free, and Baltar's. Some of the flashbacks in the second half of the episodes were sort of a waste of time, especially Roslin's and Adama's (other than the bits with the Tighs), but I really liked the idea of Baltar deciding to settle down and be happy to cultivate the earth. Could just be that Tigh and Baltar have been my two favorite characters since the start though.



That was just to calibrate the polygraph. It was obviously a ridiculous question set up to elicit a truthful negative response. Clear as day.

Also, it was kind of strange that Cavil and his skinjob buddies didn't have any sort of tactical gear. Not sure why Simon needed a sharp suit and tie to go and kill some humans.

All in all, I think it was a decent wrap up, with the caveats listed above. I do think the high point of the final season was the mutiny arc though, that shit was intense.

Edited to Add: Seemed clear to me that Starbuck was a head character that everyone could see.[/quote]

So why was the "first" earth a devastated wasteland?

[Lord of Oop North]

[quote name='Crazydog7' post='1728195' date='Mar 21 2009, 00.57']So why was the "first" earth a devastated wasteland?[/quote]
Because the 13th Tribe were Cylons and blew themselves up?

[Lord O' Bones]

Why did Cavil commit suicide?

[mcbigski]

I figure he knew that he wouldn't get off of Galactica, and he thought it'd be a cleaner end than whatever the treacherous humans would cook up for him.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Aemon Stark' post='1728159' date='Mar 20 2009, 23.37']Maybe I feel myself more of a casual viewer at this point, but I'm not sure why the lack of explanations about absolutely everything really matters. In fact, I'd argue that *any* answer to the question of "who orchestrated everything" is going to sound overly simple and probably unsatisfying.[/quote]

Well that's the risk you take when you create major mysteries in your show; at some point, you're gonna be called upon answer them. The answers might be disappointing or underwhelming, but you still have to fucking answer them. You do not get to send riddles to the viewers that keep them curious, keep them guessing for season after season, adding in no small measure to your overall viewership, than at the last moment say 'SURPRISE, we don't really have an answer and you're a fool for thinking we'd give you one!!'

[quote]It's left to your interpretation in the end (and I'm pretty sure that was Head Six and Head Baltar in the last scene).[/quote]

Leaving to your interpretation presupposes that there's something to interpret. They gave us nothing. Several seasons of random, inexplicable weirdness than nothing. Its not an answer. Not a mysterious answer nor a 'to your interpretation' answer. Its a copout because the writers weren't creative enough to come up with solutions to their own self-made problems.

[quote]I also really enjoyed the emphasis on character this past season - it's about frakking time. While I do hold the first two seasons (or season and a half) as some of the best parts of BSG, they are plot-driven to the virtual exclusion of detailed characterization. The archetypes work very, very well, but they were never sufficient to sustain the series when the plot momentum ebbed or we were faced with a vaguely "stand alone" episode. It's the little details about each character that matter, though, and they finally started developing these toward the end.[/quote]

The show managed plenty of characterization in its first two seasons. What they didn't do was shove it in our face and ram it down our throats with endless flashbacks that we can already surmise and don't really need. They weren't necessary and didn't really add much. I already knew who Kara, Lee, Tigh, and Adama were. About the useful bit was on Roslyn, but even that was drawn out further than was necessary. It was gratuitous, self-important trash largely created to distract us from the fact that they had no answers or direction.

[quote]So why was the "first" earth a devastated wasteland?[/quote]

Because they needed a shocking conclusion to that season.

[RedEyedGhost]

I feel like I need to go watch some [i]Galactica 1980[/i] to cleanse my palate from the travesty that was season 4.5 (plus season 3 and 4.0).

Such a frakking waste.

[Wouter]

[quote name='EHK for a True GOP' post='1727990' date='Mar 21 2009, 04.35']5 years. I want it back. I'll come to my senses in time and simply remember the moments when the series genuinely was brilliant. But fuck this noise right now. Fucking stupid and unforgivable. I feel that much dumber for having watched it.[/quote]
Seconded. So sad that the show has come to this religious mumbo-jumbo bullshit, with characters that are completely illogical in their decisions.

The first 2 seasons are still very good, but after that this show really "swept the pigeon"*, as they say on the scifi fora.

*: since Daybreak, part1, this is the new term for "jumping the shark".

[Werthead]

I thought it was as satisfying a finale as we could possibly get given the way the show has gone since the start of Season 3. The writers decided not to push the button on what 'God' was (the thirteenth Lord of Kobol who sublimed to a higher plane but still keeps an interest in mortal events, Iain M. Banks-style, for my money) but the second you realise that He/She/It is a real entity with real servants who really was doing things for the survival and mutual benefit of humanity and Cylonkind then everything else really falls into place.

Starbuck? Gandalf the White. Her job wasn't done so she got kicked back into play until it was, then it was off to Valinor with her. Lee gets left alone: if they'd walked off into the sunset together I would have barfed over the screen, although having said that Starbuck and Anders ending up together 'on the other side' was coming a bit close to that.

The finale was also interesting for being totally fanwank-compatible. You want to say that the Lords of Kobol came from Real Earth tens of thousands of years earlier and later settled Kobol? Not a problem. I'm assuming Adama's "1 million light-years away," thing was a total exaggeration and they were actually in Real Earth's neighbourhood for the last dozen or so episodes (real constellations have been showing up in CGI scenes all over the place for quite some time now). It would be total corn if it turned out that all along we weren't even in the right galaxy.

The old-school and new Centurions beating the crap out of one another was great, and Cavil realising it was all over and blowing his head off with a final, "FRAK!" was great (Dean Stockwell apparently argued hard for this). Them also keeping back Tory's killing of Cally and not referring to it again just so Tyrol could kill her and fuck up the peace agreement was also brilliant. If they had ended it with a peace agreement I would have said, "I watched this show ten years ago, it was called [i]What You Leave Behind[/i] and was great for [i]that[/i] series, but I didn't need a remake."

Final scene in New York? Knew about that ages ago, and they handled it a lot better than I thought they would (RDM's cameo was dangerously close to breaking the fourth wall though). The 'real' 'All Along the Watchtower' kicking in was a great moment, but the final shots of the robots was very corny. I've been interested hearing about how [b]Caprica [/b]is going to be basically tackling the idea of the AI/artificial sentience Singularity, but [b]BSG[/b] going there in that fashion was a bit cheesy.

People desperately seeking closure to every little mystery will loathe it. Those who accepted that we weren't going to get straight answers to everything will be more forgiving of it. But I suppose at least we [i]got[/i] an ending that mostly tied everything up, which is more than can be said for a lot of TV shows out there. Interesting to see if [b]Lost[/b] steps up to the plate next year.

[Ran]

I very much enjoyed it, and it's not just because it ended pretty much exactly as I said it would -- the focus on the characters, and where they were versus where they are. It's the characters that brought it to life, not the metal gizmos and the big booms, and it's the characters that put it to bed. I thought there were a lot of very well-acted, thoughtful scenes. The build up of tension, the climax, the denoument -- all good.

I do agree that answering all the questions with, "God" is indeed something of a cop out. Or rather, not a cop out, but trusting in the enigma of the sublime as the "answer" isn't going to work. It's an answer, it's a thematically consistent answer, but unfortunately it's not what a lot of people want. Or they say they don't want it, in any case. I'm not sure how the writers could have done anything more to prepare and guide viewers to this question. I suppose people would rather that Doc Cottle stepped out from behind the curtain and said, "I am the LORD, they GOD".... BTW, good farewell for him from Roslin.

Linda does point out, and it's true, that the pacing of the episode was off. There were pieces where the emotional rollercoaster was not hitting the highs and lows that I think they were shooting for, because they'd jump the tracks to something else at, I think, the wrong moments. I suspect that this episode may be more effective on multiple viewings, to catch the nuances, to try and see the pattern that Moore and co. were trying to establish.

It's a pretty complex episode, come to think of it. In any case, I'm sorry everyone doesn't enjoy the finale as much as they hoped. I knew coming out of it that there'd be a lot of issues; Linda didn't dig it.

One last thing -- the Caprica-by-night CGI was gorgeous.... but something seemed off about a lot of the battle against the forces of the Colony. Galactica's ramming seemed way abrupt, the swarms of raiders and vipers didn't quite seem to move right, and so on. Did they try to bite off a bit more than they could chew?

Finally, Kara. Great job from her. Her farewell to Anders was affecting, and Sackhoff played it just right. I think mcbigski is right. From her death she's been an angelic spirit. I'm now wondering if her "memory" of the music was dropped in there by God, and that no such thing happened to the real Kara Thrace.

I was lukewarm on the show after the first season, but I have to say I'm very impressed with RDM's handling of the end. It takes guts to keep the focus on the characters and not on the ostensible plot. Much respect on that account.

[oneeye]

why did adama go off and live alone? Galen I can sort of understand.

[Rockroi]

Absurd. Just a silly waste of time. Not terrible, just a culmination of what I have always feared about these types of shows: that when push comes to shove, the writers are incapable of building on what they started with, so they have to do an escalating series of “jaw droppers” just to make the series stay afloat. But the problem with THAT type of writing is that eventually, you have to explain your jaw-droppers; your plot twists and turns.

And for the record, everyone who watched the final episode and thought it was “good” should be forced to read EHK’s posts because they systematically explain why it was pretty bad.

I really, really liked most of the first hour. But the initial flashbacks were very bad storytelling. See, if they were really good storytellers, those points would have been mentioned much, much, much earlier. Instead, they are dropped in here as sort of a “see-this-is-what-makes-them-deep-characters” nonsense. I mean… did you ever ONCE ask, “Hey, what ever happened to Roslyn’s father?” Yes, it all ties in “at the end” but that’s only because they tell us these things AT the end.

I really liked how they choreographed the first hour vis-à-vis Roslyn, the child, Baltaar, etc. That was very well done. And I thought Dean Stockwell and his merry-band of Cylons just tearing up Galactica was … special. Sort of if Darth Vader was a really mean accountant. I just found that sort of “we’re-just-wrecking-your-shit” attitude of the Cylons worthwhile. I LOVED how they set up the entire waltz back to the “opera house.”

And then the episode kept going. And would not stop. No matter how hard it tried, the fucking show would not stop itself from going on… and on… and on…

I mean, which ending did you like the best? The 3rd? The 8th? The 13th? I think there was an ending for each of the original colonies.

But it was so ridiculous. Starbuck was an angel? A ghost? Or why don’t we call her what she is: a convenient plot devise to fill in the gaps that the writers incongruity created? They utterly wasted one of the best characters of the last 5 years of TV. Thanks beautiful. So bad. So bad.

The overall answer that "God" did all this seems like a "cop out" because it IS A COP OUT! The answer "God did it" is a Cop out if we are discussing a really good story or creationism. Its not rational, its not interesting, its not sensible. Therefore, it usually makes for very poor conflict resolution. BS:G was no different.

And the writing! How terrible could it get? “The first memory of my father…” “Well he isn’t coming back, Lee.” No shit, Sherlock, I think we all gathered that! Then there was the “we are sewing the seeds of our own destruction!!!!!” Robots!!!!!! Thanks, I think we… you know what, never-mind. Apparently the writers only tell us the obvious.

Oh, and apparently like 20,000+ people all agreed, “Hey, lets not use any technology whatsoever… except Adama who gets to keep the Raptor.” Thankfully they found “Lucy” but not the Raptor. But everyone is just “Yeah, we don’t need… stuff.” A lazy, lazy way to end that issue.

Overall, it was just the culmination of what many TV shows are: a really good start that CAN IN NO WAY continue that type of momentum. Alas, BS:G fell into the same hole- a hole the writers themselves dug.

[Werthead]

Also, I thought it was great that Racetrack saved the day. Kind of.

Interesting to see if Helo was supposed to die. I know that the actor had to go in and really argue hard to get them to change his ending. I think on top of everyone else Helo's death would not have really added much, whilst having him, Athena and Hera go off together happily was a validation of those fricking 62 days he spent on Caprica in Season 1.

[quote]One last thing -- the Caprica-by-night CGI was gorgeous.... but something seemed off about a lot of the battle against the forces of the Colony. Galactica's ramming seemed way abrupt, the swarms of raiders and vipers didn't quite seem to move right, and so on. Did they try to bite off a bit more than they could chew?[/quote]

Mojo's apparently going to be blogging about the CGI in the near future, so it's probably worthwhile keeping an eye on his website.

However, the CGI has felt a little bit off ever since Zoic left. The Battle of New Caprica, the battle in the Ionian Nebula, the Hub and now the battle at the Colony were all great and impressive, but in terms of the sheer quality of the images, nothing in the series really ever matched the [i]Galactica[/i] and [i]Pegasus[/i] taking out that baseship in [i]Resurrection Ship, Part 2[/i]. The images in that sequence were much 'clearer' and more vivid than everything that the inhouse team did in Seasons 3 and 4.

[quote]why did adama go off and live alone? Galen I can sort of understand.[/quote]

What did Adama have left? Roslin and [i]Galactica[/i] were gone and Lee had stepped into his own role as a leader. Obviously he wanted a better ending by building a cabin out in the wilderness and spending his last few years farming or something rather than getting drunk down at the still with Tigh and Ellen.

[Grim Shady]

I'm concerned about the portrayal of early man. The aliens (Adama and crew) seem pretty confident that these "primitives" will inter-breed with them. Well, maybe caveman has standards? Maybe caveman think 6s aren't attractive at all, they're too clean and hair too bright. Maybe caveman already in fulfullling relationship.

Those remains of Hera they found 150,000 years later were of a childless spinster, cause caveman wasn't buying what she was selling.