Battlestar Galactica Thread #13

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

This is just a continuation of the previous [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=35249&st=400&start=400"]Battlestar Galactica thread[/url] that has just hit post #400 and will probably be terminated by mods.

Bronn Stone:
[quote]It has been ASSERTED several times. By individuals foolishly ignoring the most basic facts about human life on this planet. This does not constitute an explanation.[/quote]I'm sorry, Bronn, but these basic facts of human life on this planet have not been ignored by detractors of the finale. The problem is that it is an artificial writer-induced explanation of a self-created problem. It was the writers who dispersed the colonialists against the face of any sense of reason, another "because the writers say so" sort of explanation.

[quote]Humanity emerged in Central Africa over 150,000 years ago and slowly spread out over the planet. This is completely, utterly, totally and irrefutably inconsistent with the concept that 38,000 individuals appeared from another planet in that time frame, dispersed themselves relatively evenly across the surface and produced offspring that survived. But it IS consistent with the idea that we were presented with - that a single special individual became the 'missing link' that elevated the existing proto-humanoids and helped them become something more.

Had the Colonials successfully bred, the otherwise vacant Americas would have been teeming with them. The Bering migration would as likely as not headed the other way. Instead, the archaeological evidence shows them migrating over the centuries to the ends of the continents. The reason we can trace human migrations that far back is because there WERE NOT ANY HUMANS present before them.[/quote]But really is it that hard to reconcile? Population A (Hera's Brood) emerges from Africa and meets up with the fragmented bits (of that evenly dispersed 38K population) of Population B in Mesopotamia while further expanding to the gradually building Population C in Europe and Population D in the Indus Valley and Population E in the Yellow River Basin. Even then, Hera simply doesn't matter even if she is ancestral ME; another would have taken her place. But at the end of the day, it is all rather ridiculous to be asserting space-traveling humanoids (in not quite a space 747) who crash landed on Earth after being chased by Xenu-cylon and became modern humanity's ancestors and then rediscovered in the new hit cult religion, Cylontology.

[tzanth]

[quote name='Kalbear']Want something more plausible? Instead of 150k years, make it 5k. Make them land all around the world and become the Gods for various places. Give all sorts of cultures rudimentary techs that can't be supported exactly, but is otherwise more useful. Explain why so many different places had similar gods, structures, etc. Be the Sky People. Far more credible and palatable. Even explains things like the greek naming conventions and whatnot.[/quote]

Indeed. Hell, even showing up during the Upper Paleolithic and having the colonials explain the development of behavioral modernity/demise of the neanderthals would have made more sense.

[Jon AS]

I was kinda hoping for another Muse reference in the new title, oh well.

[quote name='Werthead']Ah, the dumping-the-tech moment. Apparently the idea wasn't so much Luddite, but more that they wanted to commit to staying on Earth for good and not have an 'out'. So dumping the ships in the Sun was supposed to be Cortes burning his ships. The Colonials [i]didn't[/i] dump all of their books, learning, medicine and technology, they just got rid of the ships and chose not to build New New Caprica and instead spread out a lot more. Seriously, that didn't come through very well at all in the aired version.[/quote]

So their actions are easier to understand but the idea that they are actually our ancestors makes even less sense now? Does Ron Moore know anything about history?

[quote name='Werthead']God [i]didn't[/i] do it. Whatever the force, fate, destiny etc is, it ain't God. That's why 'it' doesn't like being called that. Apparently that was to make people go, "WTF?" one last time before the show ended.[/quote]

Well, that makes everything better. No wait, it doesn't.

[CloudFlare]

Wert,

Thanks for the synopsis in the last thread. I did a death march of season 1-4 on DVD over a couple of months, so a lot of the details escaped me.


The entire opera house thing was pointless. I can think of a half dozen ways Baltar+Caprica+Hera could have been used to make that little plot line much more interesting and relevant. "Oh, we actually going to be physically holding Hera". Barf. Having the Final Five up above in the CIC like they were in the opera house was cool though.

[Imp]

Just watched the final episode. Have to say I wasn't impressed, and the more I think about the loose plot threads and the completely nonsensical final hour the more pissed off I get.

'God did it' being the answer to everything is just fucking lazy on the writers part and an insult to the viewers who've stuck with this show through thick and thin for years.

[Lord O' Bones]

Just re-watched it. Angst ridden and conflicted about her destiny, and then later about her very identity, a magically sanguine "Kara Thrace" just up and vanishes, upon further review still = FAIL.

Damn it.

[Ran]

[quote]a magically sanguine..[/quote]

She became sanguine earlier than the two hour finale, when she put her own photo up on the wall of remembrance, it seems to me. She had accepted her destiny at that point, and it rather looks like she believed that had to do with her having died.

Remember Baltar's speech. The "why" isn't that important. The "how" one lives one's life in the face of the "why" is the important part.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Ran' post='1731256' date='Mar 24 2009, 02.49']She became sanguine earlier than the two hour finale, when she put her own photo up on the wall of remembrance, it seems to me.[/quote]
This bears looking into. How far back was this again?

Side note: Future DVD viewers won't have to put up with the barrage of promotions Sci-Fi ran over the last few weeks, and good thing: They played up the "then who am I!?" theme for Starbuck until the end, leading me and other suckers, to believe that question might get answered.

[quote]She had accepted her destiny at that point, and it rather looks like she believed that had to do with her having died.[/quote]
Yet she seemed every bit as confused about what had happened to her, even so.

[quote]Remember Baltar's speech. The "why" isn't that important. The "how" one lives one's life in the face of the "why" is the important part.[/quote]
Baltar is one of those eloquent guys, that can make a speech out of thin air and have it sound compelling at the time, whether he believes or even knows what is coming out of his mouth., IMO.

[Ran]

It was in [i]Islanded in a Stream of Stars[/i], some time after Baltar told her that yes, that was her blood on the dog tags.

She still doesn't know "why" ... but remember, the "why" doesn't matter. ;)

She's not Jesus Christ. She's not resurrected with full knowledge of her purpose. But she accepts that she has a purpose, and once that purpose is fulfilled, she knows it and she's ready to pass beyond the veil.

As to Baltar's speech, it's another key moment in the whole thing, and it's a major reason for his conversion to monotheism and his religious experiences. Even if for a long time he was unsure, sometimes mouthing stuff that Head-Six told him to say, sometimes just babbling whatever came to mind, it seems clear that on a deeper level he was finding his own path to redemption through faith.

So at the end, when he gives that speech, that's heartfelt.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Ran' post='1731268' date='Mar 24 2009, 03.20']It was in [i]Islanded in a Stream of Stars[/i], some time after Baltar told her that yes, that was her blood on the dog tags.[/quote]
Thanks. I'll check it out again.


[quote]She still doesn't know "why" ... but remember, the "why" doesn't matter. ;)

She's not Jesus Christ. She's not resurrected with full knowledge of her purpose. But she accepts that she has a purpose, and once that purpose is fulfilled, she knows it and she's ready to pass beyond the veil.[/quote]
I don't care about the "why." I just hoped for a sniff at the "what," maybe the "how."

[quote]As to Baltar's speech, it's another key moment in the whole thing, and it's a major reason for his conversion to monotheism and his religious experiences. Even if for a long time he was unsure, sometimes mouthing stuff that Head-Six told him to say, sometimes just babbling whatever came to mind, it seems clear that on a deeper level he was finding his own path to redemption through faith.

So at the end, when he gives that speech, that's heartfelt.[/quote]
I can tentatively buy this. Sadly, I'm too hung up on 'disappearing Kara' to delve too much into much else.

[Ran]

Well, I'd say "what" she is is broadly known to us now: some kind of spirit. "How" she is that is blinking tech-box territory, I suppose -- God (and since Head Six calls it God, I'll use that, even if It doesn't like it; It can strike me down if it wants ;) just has the ability to do that.

To me, the important part of it is how Starbuck reacted and developed thanks to this experience and her lack of knowing about the whys and wherefores. She accepted she had a purpose, in a way that she often (self-destructively) railed against doing in earlier seasons, and took that leap of faith that led to finding our Earth. Mission accomplished. Now she could finally leap home, having righted one more wrong. ;)

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Ran' post='1731280' date='Mar 24 2009, 03.41']To me, the important part of it is how Starbuck reacted and developed thanks to this experience and her lack of knowing about the whys and wherefores. She accepted she had a purpose, in a way that she often (self-destructively) railed against doing in earlier seasons, and took that leap of faith that led to finding our Earth. Mission accomplished. Now she could finally leap home, having righted one more wrong. ;)[/quote]
I envy you artist types. :thumbsup:

*heads back to the military industrial complex*

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ran,

If Cavil was Starbuck's not so subtle guide then BSG is really just an extended episode of "Quantum Leap." Hey, Starbuck's husband was named "Sam" after all.

[Bombjack]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1731185' date='Mar 24 2009, 06.43']I was kinda hoping for another Muse reference in the new title, oh well.[/quote]
[i]Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist[/i]?

[Rockroi]

[quote]Remember Baltar's speech. The "why" isn't that important. The "how" one lives one's life in the face of the "why" is the important part.[/quote]

Gottcha. The writers said so. Thanks for clearing that up.

This cannot be explained away. Its just poor story telling.

[Ran]

Scot,

SPOILER: The Plan

Apparently, if I understood a spoiler right, a Cavil model will be hanging out with Anders and calling him 'Sam' a lot, which the actors thought amusing.

Rockroi,

How do you explain away the resurrection of Christ? The fall of manna in the desert? The parting of the Red Sea?

Same stuff, different mode of storytelling.

[Rockroi]

Ran:

Agreed. And its poor storytelling.

And did you just compare BS:G to centuries old reliogions? Many of which do not stand a good deal of reasonable scrutiny? Really?

The mode has changed, but the eye rolling at Starbuck "disappearing" or at Jesus raising Lazarus (who, conviently, has no memory of his death experience) has not.

[Yagathai]

No, it's called... what's that word...

Fiction.

[red snow]

On the whole I'd have to say I liked the finale for all it's problems as it could have been far worse. The abandonment of technology really pisses me of though as it is simply stupid. Chances are they all died of disease or famine within the first 5 years. Plus without technology and living far apart, what was to stop early man from killing them?

I would have much rather they had built some secluded city that became Atlantis/"lost" island and assume a "prime directive" which would explain why they had zero effect on humanity's cultural evolution (if we had had basic farming that long ago - we'd probably have cylons and FTL drives now). Maybe they should have had some sensible civilians refuse and we could have watched them fly off to new caprica for another go.

Alternatively, they should have just had Galactica on it's own crash on earth and being destroyed in the impact with only a handful of crew making it out alive. Now if amongst the dead were Baltar, Chief and some of the medics that would more conveniently exlain the abandonment of technology. If I were stranded on an island with the vast majority of people from the Western World then technology would be lost (although i could still rustle up a wheel).

As for the god stuff, I was fine with it - yes it's deus ex machina but the show has been doing that for a long time so at least i was prepared.

I did feel that everyone going there separate way was forced and it left me feeling very sad for Apollo and left me thinking that Adama was selfish. I'd much rather Adama had died on the mission than essential give up on life and his family.

Finally were we supposed to believe every last cylon was dead? If they were that means they put up an awfully weak defense.

[Myrddin]

[url="http://leasticoulddo.com/comic/20090324"]Online comic reaction to finale[/url]

ETA: not deep or anything, just amusing