Relic Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731403' date='Mar 24 2009, 08.50']Rockroi, How do you explain away the resurrection of Christ? The fall of manna in the desert? The parting of the Red Sea?[/quote] I explain it as bad fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Well, there you go. The mythic has no value to you. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731637' date='Mar 24 2009, 11.48']Well, there you go. The mythic has no value to you. ;)[/quote] I guess... Either that or im hung up on stuff like logic and causality =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Kalbear said: [quote]Wert, we're not talking about building something like Caprica again. But it's insane to think that given things like writing, agriculture, husbandry, engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, metallurgy, geology - knowing all of these things - that they couldn't have had a significant leg up on everyone else, and would have significantly sped up the advancement of humanity. Especially given 150,000 years ago; agriculture being used that long ago instead of 12k years ago or so (or 6k, if you really want to get that technical) would have increased the human population potential ridiculously. And that's just basic agriculture. Husbandry, basic smelting, etc - these things would have sped up the advancement of humanity far more that 150k years would have taken.[/quote] This is eminently sensible. Hell, the fact that the Colonials had [i]language skills[/i] (which are, properly viewed, technology) puts them light-years ahead of the cavemen. They also understood that infection is caused by little critters and not evil spirits, and that various substances found underground can be burned as high-producing fuel, etc. They'd have [i]huge [/i]advantages over the natives, who are still working on the wheel. Also, I have little problem believing that a Colonial society on Earth would progress far more quickly than the one on New Caprica. NC was, if you recall, pretty crappy, and only 20% of the planet was suitable for human life. Earth is more temperate, verdant, and fertile, and the humans would spend much less time struggling for bare survival. Given that plus the advantages of technology, I think they'd do fairly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote]Either that or im hung up on stuff like logic and causality =P[/quote] Yeah, it's not like causality-defying prophecy has been at the center of the narrative for about four seasons, right? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Shady Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 We're just chasing our tails at this point. Two sides, both thinks the other doesn't get it. What's the next show that's nearing it's end? Let's take our places and get ready. Isn't half the cast of Grey's Anatomy jumping ship? That could be our bat signal right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731658' date='Mar 24 2009, 11.59']Yeah, it's not like causality-defying prophecy has been at the center of the narrative for about four seasons, right? ;)[/quote]It's not like Ron Moore and the writers promised actual explanations, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Sorry with some of the lateness of these responses, but from the previous thread [quote name='mcbigski']My vision of that spinoff would have everything start out absolutely dandy for the colonists. Baltar could teach everyone how to farm and Cottle would keep them all healthy.....The first season cliffhanger would be when Cottle discovers that someone nicked his last pack of cigarettes and then goes ape shit. The next several seasons could be Cottle tripping out in a psychodelic haze after experimenting with smoking every plant species in sight. He could have all kinds of trippy visions about Dirk Benedict, Bob Dylan, and whatever crazy ideas RDM felt like running with on any given day. . . The only way Connor can relearn enough medicine in time to save Cottle is with a training montage, in which the music is played for him by the ghost of Kara Thrace.[/quote] I absolutely love this scenario except for what it is missing. Cottle fighting bears. Who doesn’t want to see old man Cottle fighting bears? [quote name='Kalbear']Wert, we're not talking about building something like Caprica again. But it's insane to think that given things like writing, agriculture, husbandry, engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, metallurgy, geology - knowing all of these things - that they couldn't have had a significant leg up on everyone else, and would have significantly sped up the advancement of humanity. Especially given 150,000 years ago; agriculture being used that long ago instead of 12k years ago or so (or 6k, if you really want to get that technical) would have increased the human population potential ridiculously. And that's just basic agriculture. Husbandry, basic smelting, etc - these things would have sped up the advancement of humanity far more that 150k years would have taken.[/quote] Who is to say that they didn’t pass along this information to the Earth-natives over the years? Maybe it would have taken longer for humanity to be where its at [i]without[/i] BSG landing on Earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731658' date='Mar 24 2009, 11.59']Yeah, it's not like causality-defying prophecy has been at the center of the narrative for about four seasons, right? ;)[/quote] Well, Ran, I have to disagree with the general direction of your point. Yes, BSG has always contained a low level of mysticism, what with the Scrolls of Pythia and various other prophecies. However, that's a long leap from humans resurrected by the will of God. Kinda like Gandalf zapping the Great Goblin with a bolt is not the same thing as Gandalf bringing Gil-galad back from the dead. The finale took BSG on what is in my view a rather unheralded turn into the religious, where the viewer need no longer bother trying to find the answers because the answers are [i]whatever God wants[/i]. Hey, I still like the show, but I have resigned myself to accepting that the overarching story has holes big enough to drive a battlestar through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote]. Kinda like Gandalf zapping the Great Goblin with a bolt is not the same thing as Gandalf bringing Gil-galad back from the dead.[/quote] More like Gandalf zapping the Great Goblin with a bolt is in essence the same thing as Gandalf being sent back to finish his job after he more or less dies.... Which, actually, kind of does happen, doesn't it? As Faulkner said, the only story really worth telling is about the human heart in conflict with itself. The answers the show offers, such as they are, have to do with how we lead our lives and how we relate to one another and our surroundings. It's not about the gizmo that connects to the tech box which explains the whatsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731729' date='Mar 24 2009, 12.50']More like Gandalf zapping the Great Goblin with a bolt is in essence the same thing as Gandalf being sent back to finish his job after he more or less dies.... Which, actually, kind of does happen, doesn't it? As Faulkner said, the only story really worth telling is about the human heart in conflict with itself. The answers the show offers, such as they are, have to do with how we lead our lives and how we relate to one another and our surroundings. It's not about the gizmo that connects to the tech box which explains the whatsis.[/quote]Such shallow fanwankery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 First time I've ever heard of Faulkner associated with fanwank. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeyjack Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Not sure if this has already been posted - [url="http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html"]interview with Ronald Moore[/url] [quote name='Moore']Kara, I think, is whatever you want her to be. It's easy to put that label on her: Angel, or Messenger of God, or whatever. Kara Thrace died and was resurrected and came back and took the people to their final end. That was her role, her destiny on the show... We debated back and forth in the writers' room for a while on giving it more definition, and saying, definitively, "This is what she is," and we decided that the more you try to outline it and give voice to it and put a name on it, the less interesting it became. We just decided this was the most interesting way to go out, with her disappearing without trying to name what she was.[/quote] The more you define it, the less interesting it becomes? Cop out. :mad: [quote name='Moore'][b][i](On whether Head Six and Head Baltar are angels or demons)[/i][/b] Moore: I think they're both. We never tried to name exactly what the head characters were, we never looked at them as angels or demons. They seemed to periodically say good things or evil things, to save people or to damn people. There was a sense that they worked in the service of something else... that was guiding and helping, sometimes obstructing, sometimes tempting. The idea at the end was that whatever they're in service of is eternal and continues, and whatever they are, they too are still around, with all of us who are the children of Hera. They continue to walk among us and watch.[/quote] So basically, there's this entity guiding everything that happened in the show, but he thinks its okay to not provide any more details about it. Hell, it kind of seems like he doesn't even know what it is himself. Its almost as if he was just using the Head characters, Kara, and 'God' as plot devices to conveniently push the story in the direction he wanted it to go, without ever really deciding what 'God' was or defining its goals (beyond breaking the cycle and getting the humans/Hera to Earth). I'm actually really disappointed that I'm on this side of the debate. Unlike some of the people who didn't like the finale, I loved pretty much every episode of this show. Even the relatively bad ones didn't bother me much, because I watched it all on DVD up until season 4.5, and was viewing it all as part of the larger story. Never had to wait all week for an episode, only to be disappointed with a standalone story that didn't make much sense or fit the overall arc of the show.....I could just move on to the next one immediately. And I don't have a problem with a lot of the final episode. I liked the final battle with the colony. Enjoyed all the character development. Didn't mind the choice to have them settle on our Earth or to set the show 150,000 years before our time. Really don't care about the details of Hera being Mitochondrial Eve. And I can even accept the decision to give up technology - doesn't make any sense, but I can shrug it off easily. Its just this one issue that is bugging me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagathai Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Ran: Why do I get the feeling that a lot of this debate would have been solved if the writers had just inserted a line like "Baltar, you have to reverse the polarity of the tachyon beam or Kara's temporal stability will become destabilized!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731729' date='Mar 24 2009, 12.50']As Faulkner said, the only story really worth telling is about the human heart in conflict with itself. The answers the show offers, such as they are, have to do with how we lead our lives and how we relate to one another and our surroundings. It's not about the gizmo that connects to the tech box which explains the whatsis.[/quote] if that's what you are looking for you should watch The Wire. or Six Feet Under. Both are character driven dramas filled with excellent writing. And neither have to use Dues Ex machina explanations to tie up lose plot holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Yagathai' post='1731747' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.11']Ran: Why do I get the feeling that a lot of this debate would have been solved if the writers had just inserted a line like "Baltar, you have to reverse the polarity of the tachyon beam or Kara's temporal stability will become destabilized!"[/quote] Because you like being condescending ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Ran' post='1731740' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.03']First time I've ever heard of Faulkner associated with fanwank. :dunno:[/quote]You are repeatedly dodging and deflecting the issues. You seem to be saying, "Just enjoy the story for what it is and the best way to enjoy the story is to ignore the story." The writers failed repeatedly throughout the story to explain exactly what they promised to explain and the story is filled with plotholes that put the Bible to shame. God, myth, or spiritual hocus pocus should never be used as a means to cover up poor TV writing. Creating a God of the Gaps is highly ill-advised in real life, so surely to It, creating a God of the Plot Gaps is just as bad in the realm of fiction where human hands and minds actually do have a more direct power to shape the events that unfold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagathai Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Relic' post='1731750' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.13']Because you like being condescending ?[/quote] Hm. I do, but correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Relic, [quote name='Relic' post='1731750' date='Mar 24 2009, 13.13']Because you like being condescending ?[/quote] Well, he is being a tad condesending. That said explaining everything to the last detail will remove the mystery from any story. Not everything should be explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotuspixie Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 [quote name='Whiskeyjack' post='1731745' date='Mar 24 2009, 12.10']I'm actually really disappointed that I'm on this side of the debate. Unlike some of the people who didn't like the finale, I loved pretty much every episode of this show. Even the relatively bad ones didn't bother me much, because I watched it all on DVD up until season 4.5, and was viewing it all as part of the larger story. Never had to wait all week for an episode, only to be disappointed with a standalone story that didn't make much sense or fit the overall arc of the show.....I could just move on to the next one immediately. And I don't have a problem with a lot of the final episode. I liked the final battle with the colony. Enjoyed all the character development. Didn't mind the choice to have them settle on our Earth or to set the show 150,000 years before our time. Really don't care about the details of Hera being Mitochondrial Eve. And I can even accept the decision to give up technology - doesn't make any sense, but I can shrug it off easily. Its just this one issue that is bugging me.[/quote] Dude, i agree with you. completely. this was also my experience (due to not having cable). you said it well. disappointed to be on this side of the debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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