Male feminists?

[Guest thebadlady]

Some wight knights are forever and some are until they pull it out.

[El-ahrairah]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1735197' date='Mar 26 2009, 23.39']... soooo... you don't think women are individuals who deserve to be treated like human beings. Glad we've got that settled so early in the thread.[/quote]
"Feminism" can of course be defined in many ways, but in its current form in the Western World I think it detrimental to both male and female interests. The battle, in my mind, is over and won. Women now have, as they ought to, equal [i]rights[/i] - but equal rights does not mean identical conditions and responsibilities. I think there are inherent differences between the two sexes that should not be marginalized, and that trying to do so to them is rather a waste of time.

[IheartTesla]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1735275' date='Mar 27 2009, 00.26']Women now have, as they ought to, equal [i]rights[/i] - but equal rights does not mean identical conditions and responsibilities.[/quote]

I thought that was exactly what equal rights meant.

Anyways, it is possible to acknowledge differences in physiology and other attributes and also be a feminist at the same time. Not all (read most) feminists, male or female want to change everyone into asexual hrmaphrodites indulging in groupthink.

[Grim Shady]

[quote name='denstorebog' post='1735108' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.42']Is a man calling himself a feminist just a man who wants to pick up feminist women?[/quote]

Yes.

/thread

[Arbor Gold]

[quote name='Brady' post='1735228' date='Mar 26 2009, 20.56']You have to right click, lil lady.

*gallops away on white horse*[/quote]
I would marry you and love you forever, but I have a mac and right-click means nothing to me.

[Grim Shady]

[quote name='Arbor Gold' post='1735306' date='Mar 27 2009, 00.54']but I have a mac and right-click means nothing to me.[/quote]

Seriously. The no right click on a mac is the single. most. frustrating. thing. ever. It's more frustrating than premature ejaculation.

My school is primarily using macs in the visual communications area and every one of us who is unfamiliar with using Macs gets in there and we're like, "What the hell is this? I can't right click stuff!!! Hulk smash!"

[TerraPrime]

[quote name='Grim Shady' post='1735324' date='Mar 26 2009, 23.16']Seriously. The no right click on a mac is the single. most. frustrating. thing. ever. It's more frustrating than premature ejaculation.

My school is primarily using macs in the visual communications area and every one of us who is unfamiliar with using Macs gets in there and we're like, "What the hell is this? I can't right click stuff!!! Hulk smash!"[/quote]


1. Control-click mouse.

2. Newer Macs come with Smart Mouse, which is a 3 button.

3. Learn to use keyboard shortcuts.

[Grim Shady]

[quote name='TerraPrime' post='1735332' date='Mar 27 2009, 01.22']1. Control-click mouse.

2. Newer Macs come with Smart Mouse, which is a 3 button.

3. Learn to use keyboard shortcuts.[/quote]

I know the keyboard shortcuts, smartypants.

How is keyboard shortcuts better than right-clicking? Answer: It's not.

Macs are pretty, but they fail hard due to no right-click. That kind of PC assimilation is very hard to untrain, it's part of my dna at this point.

The people at school tried to appease me by plugging a right click mouse into one of the Macs. All it did was grease my gears.

[Night Ninja]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1735197' date='Mar 27 2009, 11.39']:grouphug: More of that sexism/privilege stuff cropping up. And it will again, in this thread, oh I am sure of it.


... soooo... you don't think women are individuals who deserve to be treated like human beings. Glad we've got that settled so early in the thread.[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism[/url]

Not [i]quite[/i] what it seems to be on first glance. Many of their points are quite valid and have the backing of evidence, they just have a really shitty name. :P

[Grim Shady]

Woot, finally crossed the 500 post mark. Thank you male feminism and macs!

[ldygrffn]

as a woman, i considered myself anti-feminist for a very long time, mostly because i thought of feminism as a movement for bra-burning, man-hating, douchebags. then i started paying attention to what feminists really wanted. Equality. in every aspect of life. feminist men are a key part of this, without men recognizing the difficulties that women face, it is just a battle between women and men, not an exploration of what is wrong in our society. and only that exploration and understanding will ever solve the real problem.


[quote]Women now have, as they ought to, equal rights - but equal rights does not mean identical conditions and responsibilities.[/quote]

sounds like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Domesticity"]the Cult of Domesticity[/url]. what about the couples where the father wants to stay home and the mother wants to work? this scenario doesn't work as well. alas. [url="http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Careers/10/22/equal.pay/index.html"]see this.[/url]

[quote]if there's war between the sexes / then there'll be no people left.[/quote]

these words were written by a man, then covered by a woman to make them available to me. feminist men are Rad.

[tzanth]

I consider myself to be a male feminist :dunno:

ETA: Frankly I find the question rather odd. Certainly ones political, social and intellectual beliefs are not limited by ones gender? Furthermore, saying one cannot be a "male" feminist implies a certain false duality to gender. What about people of third genders? Would you deny the right of a biologicaly female berdache to call themselves a feminist simply because they are not a woman? It seems to me that the anti-male-feminist position is based on a deeply flawed understanding of the constructed nature of gender.

[Shryke]

Male Feminists are traitors. WTF are you guys doing, undermining the very rights and privileges our foreFATHERS fought and died for.

You think this kind of systematic oppression created itself? Those titans of history worked long and hard for the white male privileges we still enjoy to this day, and these men are spitting on their graves.

And all for what? Some pussy? Just learn to play John Mayer on an acoustic guitar.

[Devil Hanzo]

I think men can be feminists.

My sociology proff was a male feminist and anarchist. Very vocal and knew more about feminism then most feminists.

[Deluge]

[quote name='denstorebog' post='1735108' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.42']So what do you think? Is a man calling himself a feminist just a man who wants to pick up feminist women?[/quote]
Shhhh. Don't give away our secrets.

[Lyanna Stark]

*sigh*

I just love how people claim they are "not feminist". :rolleyes: Anf for the record, feminism is not the anti-thesis to being a humanist; you can be both quite happily as they don't clash.


From the dictionary, for all you confused people:

Feminism:  
1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women[b] equal [/b]to those of men.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.

How is striving for equality not a noble cause? You can disagree with the way it is done, or with certain individuals calling themselves feminists, but the cause *itself* is fine.

Hence people calling themselves anti-feminists need to have a long date with the clue-bat.

Or why not read the words of a known anti-feminist:

[i]Antifeminist comments periodically appear in U.S. political punditry. For example, in a 1983 syndicated column, Pat Buchanan wrote, "Rail as they will about discrimination, women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism."[/i]

Clearly, women have never been discriminated against, it is only our delicate minds and bodies that cannot handle working outside the home. Now fetch me the smelling salt.



As for den's original question, of course men can be feminists. Anyone who agrees with that women should be equal to men and that the fight for equality is worth fighting is, by definition, a feminist.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1735275' date='Mar 27 2009, 06.26']"Feminism" can of course be defined in many ways, but in its current form in the Western World I think it detrimental to both male and female interests. The battle, in my mind, is over and won. Women now have, as they ought to, equal [i]rights[/i] - but equal rights does not mean identical conditions and responsibilities. I think there are inherent differences between the two sexes that should not be marginalized, and that trying to do so to them is rather a waste of time.[/quote]


The battle in your mind is over and won sure. Now you need to meet reality, where it isn't. No, we don't have identical conditions and responsibilities, but maybe we ought to have. Focusing on biological difference people did in the 1940s, please wake up and smell the coffee, or even better, why not actually try and read something on the subject.

Simone de Beauvoir showed already in her "The Second Sex" from 1949 that biology cannot explain the subjugation of women, nor does it explain the division of labour. It amazes me that people are still going on about this some 60 years later, when this is old news. And trust me, Miss Beauvoir heaps nothing but scorn on the female body, yet she clearly concludes it is not something that can explain why women should be doing housework or why women should be stay at home mothers and not work or have a political and academic career. A lot of what she concluded 60 years ago people still have issues with and the amount if minsinformation is enormous. Many things she described clearlt and concisely people still can't grasp, like why the title of her books is called "The Second Sex" and what it means to never be the norm.

She also brings up why this seems to be an easier thing for people to live with, this making woman the Other, compared to for instance racism, which people normally have far less tolerance for. We've had several discussions on this very board where men have come out and said yes, they think racism is far more serious than sexism. Hence the acceptance of treating women as inferior, or to believe women to be inferior and the Other, is far higher.

[url="http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/ethics/de-beauvoir/2nd-sex/introduction.htm"]Short introduction to the concept of the Other[/url]

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Grim Shady' post='1735324' date='Mar 27 2009, 06.16']Seriously. The no right click on a mac is the single. most. frustrating. thing. ever. It's more frustrating than premature ejaculation.[/quote]
The concept of a secondary mouse click has existed in Macs for many decades. The only differences are that

(1) The secondary click is not called [i]right[/i] click, because the concepts of left/right click imply to clear priority. In fact, logically, the left click should be secondary and the right click should be the [i]right click[/i], right? On a Mac, you can “click” and “secondary click”. The secondary click is used for contextual menus, for example. It is accessed by using the [i]right mouse button[/i] on a two-button mouse, if you want to plug in such a device. But there are many other ways to access the secondary click (control-click, single-click with two fingers on the trackpad, etc.), including [i]not using it[/i], which is the default option. If you’ve ever worked tech support over the phone (“I [i]am[/i] clicking! Nothing happens!”), or tried to help normal people using a computer, you will understand why that is a blessing.

(2) On a Mac you hardly ever use it, because the human–computer interaction is much better thought out and consistent throughout applications. Cut–copy–paste I certainly use [i]using keyboard shortcuts[/i], instead of secondary-clicking my input device, which happens to be a 4-button trackball + scroll wheel.

[needle]

And[i] Fuck you[/i] for laughing at me, Stego. :P
[quote]Feminism" can of course be defined in many ways, but in its current form in the Western World I think it detrimental to both male and female interests. The battle, in my mind, is over and won.[/quote]

Do tell me who you think won. I'm not feeling like a victor right now.

Male feminists - a jolly good thing. What I dislike is this 'white knights' thing that really teaches men that being pro-feminist is a [i]bad thing[/i] and will get you sneered at on the internet. Not. Helpful. When people spend all their time deriding people with good intentions, rather than attacking the real enemy which is the sexist a-hole that abounds on the internet then it's shooting the whole feminist movement in the foot.

Bring on the White knights I say. They may make mistakes but I'd rather have men who are trying to help than ones who don't give a fuck.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='needle' post='1735452' date='Mar 27 2009, 12.06']Bring on the White knights I say. They may make mistakes but I'd rather have men who are trying to help than ones who don't give a fuck.[/quote]

Completely agree. It is easier to have a discussion with somebody who is already at least "on the same side" and interested in the topic than somebody who says FU and tells you a joke about blondes with big boobs, how women can't drive and then when you get annoyed tells you you have no humour.

Everyone makes mistakes as well, plus a lot of female feminists disagree on issues. Disagreeing on issues is definitely not detrimental. Only through healthy discussion and people actually giving a fuck can we move forward. :)


EDIT: Plus I think the White knight label can be tossed around to discredit people's arguments as well, which is unfair.