Male feminists?

[DrownedCrow]

[quote]Sexism, in my eyes, is in part a particular form of bullying that relies on an uneven power dynamic.[/quote]

Bullying women is bad. Using terms like "power dynamic" is worse.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1735520' date='Mar 27 2009, 12.40']Simone de Beaviour[/quote]De Beauvoir ;)

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1735537' date='Mar 27 2009, 12.56']De Beauvoir ;)[/quote]
Gods, I’m happy [i]a woman[/i] made that mistake.

[Guest Raidne]

I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of male feminists, helps the cause most of the time.

[quote name='Kat' post='1735115' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.47']I don't mind male feminists (as long as they're not white-knights in disguise.)

It's also the ones that post with unnecessary minor spoilers for BSG that get to me. :P[/quote]

But also this. Especially the second part.

[quote name='El-ahrairah' post='1735133' date='Mar 26 2009, 22.55']For the record, I'm a male anti-feminist.[/quote]

Shocking!

[quote name='thebadlady' post='1735162' date='Mar 26 2009, 23.12']My main objection to the feminist threads here has always been the same - the topic gets started, people start yelling at the idiots (good start there, nice snark), then the men argue with each other about what feminism really means and drown out the women.[/quote]

I actually saw this happen a few times in feminism classes as well. It's funny, because I'm obviously against racism, but people are a lot more sensitive to not being the white person who wants to dominate a conversation on racism that men are about dominating a conversation on feminism.

Anyway, that's pretty much the main thing I have to say about it and I couldn't have said it better. Is this what happens when you've been on the board for three years and hit over 10,000 posts? Ro starts speaking truth to power?

[danro]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735541' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.05']I actually saw this happen a few times in feminism classes as well. It's funny, because I'm obviously against racism, but people are a lot more sensitive to not being the white person who wants to dominate a conversation on racism that men are about dominating a conversation on feminism.[/quote]
I saw a prefect example of this in a debate program a few weeks ago. Two loud men debating women liberation in front of two silent women. I don't know who annoyed me the most. The feminist men who should have known better than to behave like that, or the feminist women who failed to stand up for themselves and claim their right to speak.

This is part of the reason that I, self described male feminist that I am, is reluctant to talk about it on the internet.
In particular in english where I come across a lot less nuanced than in Swedish. It's easy to make oneself look like an ass.

[The Iceman of the North]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735541' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.05']I actually saw this happen a few times in feminism classes as well. It's funny, because I'm obviously against racism, but people are a lot more sensitive to not being the white person who wants to dominate a conversation on racism that men are about dominating a conversation on feminism.[/quote]
Oh, but that's because deep down we all know that the men are superior even if we pretend that's not the case. ;)

But seriously, I believe this is a cultural thing. Men tend to be louder in debates. And of course, when women are loud they are considered to be shrill, which we all know are really bad!

[Galactus]

I think "anti-feminist" is very different from being sexist... In kind of the same way that being a nazi is different from being a racist. (Not exact analogues but...)

Most people are racist or sexist in their assumptions and beliefs (and I do not exclude myself from these groups) at least occasionally. But that is different from having a formulated ideology.

It is one thing to have racist or sexist assumptions, or even to act on them occasionally, or get angry when your racism/sexism is pointed out, it is an entirely different thing to actively oppose equality.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='The Iceman of the North' post='1735545' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.16']Oh, but that's because deep down we all know that the men are superior even if we pretend that's not the case. ;)

But seriously, I believe this is a cultural thing. Men tend to be louder in debates. And of course, when women are loud they are considered to be shrill, which we all know are really bad![/quote]

This had not been my experience. My Law and Gender class in law school was full of women lawyers. They are not quiet people, for the most part. My other class I was thinking of was a philosophy class with 40 people, two men. With 38 women, you know at least a few are going to be outspoken. Plus [i]I[/i] was in both these classes.

But it still happened. I think the guys would get this idea that as the minority their voice needed to be heard for every female voice that was heard, so half the class would be this one - yes - douchebag talking. We finally went to the Prof and she took care of it - we had to enforce a more formal discussion style to keep him from hogging the conversation and cutting everyone off.

ETA: Law and Gender we had this douchebag who would phrase everything using technical post-modern philosophy language like "discursive formation" which would intimidate everyone else out of talking because nobody wanted to look like the idiot who didn't understand what we was talking about.

[Galactus]

Raidne: Hmm, you know, I'm not certain that only happens in mixed companies. I've noticed (even in all-male groups) that there's usually one or two people talking with most others listening and/or occasionally putting a comment in. Especially in class.

I *know* for a fact I do this all the time myself.

It would be interesting to see some studies, is it always the same guy talking and the other guys are mostly silent? (Mind, I have no doubt there is a disparity between genders here, but it would be interesting to see if the group dynamic would be different if it was an all-male environment)

EDIT: I've noticed this in a lot of groups actually, even people who in other contexts would be "The Talker" step back and stay silent if they come across a different "Talker" at times.

[Chaldanya]

[i]But seriously, I believe this is a cultural thing. Men tend to be louder in debates. And of course, when women are loud they are [b]considered to be shrill[/b], which we all know are really bad![/i]

This is just one way in which women's voices are blocked in such a debate. Women are accused of being hysterical, shrill, over-emotional or irrational when articulating their argument, whereas a man is being forthright, strong and standing up for his beliefs. In debates such as these, I think it's very hard for a woman to be heard at all.

The other thing to address are those in here who seem to think that the fight is over for feminists; that women have equal rights enshrined in law and that's the end of it. When thinking this mull over this:

1) Feminism isn't just about one country. Women are treated appallingly and less than all over the world.
2) In the western world women are still paid less than men.
3) Women are still subject to sexism in the workplace. There was an interesting report in Forbes the other day which basically says that on Wall Street the redundancies that are being made are 50/50 but women aren't represented 50/50 so there are now proportionally less women to men than last year. (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women.html)
4) If you find yourself discounting a woman on basis of if she wears makeup or if she has sex with lots of partners etc. that's sexism.

I could go on, but it's lunch time and I'm hungry and I'm not sure how much energy I have for another one of these threads. And also, there are many more articulate than I.

N

ps I'm glad my avatar got name checked, but I stole if from Eefa... :D

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735551' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.23']ETA: Law and Gender we had this douchebag who would phrase everything using technical post-modern philosophy language like "discursive formation" which would intimidate everyone else out of talking because nobody wanted to look like the idiot who didn't understand what we was talking about.[/quote]
So if [i]I[/i] had been in that class, and shred him to pieces in front of the class with my superior debating skills (which is what I do with post-modernists), I would have had 38 fawning and grateful women around me? Or am I misunderstanding something again?

[MinDonner]

What's the tree equivalent of a White Knight? A silver birch, perhaps? :huh:

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Galactus' post='1735555' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.30']Raidne: Hmm, you know, I'm not certain that only happens in mixed companies. I've noticed (even in all-male groups) that there's usually one or two people talking with most others listening and/or occasionally putting a comment in. Especially in class.[/quote]

No, agreed, it's not something that only happens in mixed company. Some people drown out other people all the time. With all women, with all men, with women and men.

We, however, are talking about [i]men[/i] who drown out [i]women[/i] in classes about feminism. I'm quite sure it's the natural inclination of these guys to never shut up, they just need to check it at the door in that kind of class - in fact, they have an obligation to.

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1735558' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.34']So if [i]I[/i] had been in that class, and shred him to pieces in front of the class with my superior debating skills (which is what I do with post-modernists), I would have had 38 fawning and grateful women around me? Or am I misunderstanding something again?[/quote]

:lol:

[Hereward]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1735572' date='Mar 27 2009, 12.48']What's the tree equivalent of a White Knight? A silver birch, perhaps? :huh:[/quote]

The White Tree of Gondor?

[Guest Raidne]

:lol: That's a classic Hereward.

[Guy Kilmore]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1735582' date='Mar 27 2009, 07.53']We, however, are talking about [i]men[/i] who drown out [i]women[/i] in classes about feminism. I'm quite sure it's the natural inclination of these guys to never shut up, they just need to check it at the door in that kind of class - in fact, they have an obligation to.[/quote]

I have always been torn on that one. It is one of the reasons I rarely comment in these threads, because of the phenonenom being discussed. I do find it to be slightly a "catch-22", do I engage knowing this phenonenom comes about, or do I hang back and "allow" a woman to speak and not appreciate the ability for her to make her thoughts known herself.

[Eponine]

[quote name='danro' post='1735544' date='Mar 27 2009, 08.15']I saw a prefect example of this in a debate program a few weeks ago. Two loud men debating women liberation in front of two silent women. I don't know who annoyed me the most. The feminist men who should have known better than to behave like that, or the feminist women who failed to stand up for themselves and claim their right to speak.[/quote]

I don't really see the problem with this situation unless the women were not being given the opportunity to speak up. I don't think that women would be told that aren't supposed to debate certain issues, even if they're issues that someone else could speak on in a more personal way, for example, male difficulties in gaining custody. If you saw two women debating that in front of two men, would you expect them to behave differently?

There are plenty of things that I have a less personal connection to than certain other people or people groups, and I keep that in mind and don't tell other people how they should FEEL about their circumstances, but it's not going to keep me from giving an opinion or debating a viewpoint. I don't see why anyone should be restricted from that.



I think that I know what Raidne's favorite insult is.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1735539' date='Mar 27 2009, 13.01']Gods, I’m happy [i]a woman[/i] made that mistake.[/quote]


Well what can I say, my French totally sucks, and with two scheduled meetings I didn't have time for spell checking it. ;) I normally do cos I can NEVER spell french words correctly. Now give me German instead and I'll be happy...



[quote]I don't really see the problem with this situation unless the women were not being given the opportunity to speak up. I don't think that women would be told that aren't supposed to debate certain issues, even if they're issues that someone else could speak on in a more personal way, for example, male difficulties in gaining custody. If you saw two women debating that in front of two men, would you expect them to behave differently?[/quote]


I think this was more a reaction to how these people behaved while discussing this particular topic, which was not custody but speficially feminism and in that context it seems more than a little grating that the men are talking far more than the women. It doesn't happen everywhere, but it does happen quite frequently that men in feminist debates get far more room for their views while women get seen as shrill, PC, weepy or overreacting. This is unfortunate, and if danro reacted to it, then I am fairly certain it was something I, and many with me, would have reacted to as well.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Guy Kilmore' post='1735618' date='Mar 27 2009, 09.22']I have always been torn on that one. It is one of the reasons I rarely comment in these threads, because of the phenonenom being discussed. I do find it to be slightly a "catch-22", do I engage knowing this phenonenom comes about, or do I hang back and "allow" a woman to speak and not appreciate the ability for her to make her thoughts known herself.[/quote]

Okay, I see what you mean, but, you know, [i]I[/i] naturally tend to talk over other people and have to constantly remind myself to tone it down (with greater and lesser success). I know how to facilitate discussion instead of being a major participant when necessary, that's really all that's required. State your opinion, but don't deny the validity of people's actual experiences. Ask questions, even leading questions if you want, but not hostile questions. From what I remember of your posts, IMO, you're not going to be a problem in this way.

You know, like Scot does, only less obvious. ;)

But a lot of times, people familiar with the literature - guys familiar with the literature - will assume, like typical guys, that I'm not, that I maybe haven't read [i]more[/i] on it than they have, will parse my points into some neat box of something they've read before, and start arguing against me without having the faintest idea of what I'm actually saying first. They, in a feminist discussion, act without charity, without assuming intellectual credibility on my part.

That's the part that's frustrating, and given the subject matter, ironic as all hell.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

[quote]You know, like Scot does, only less obvious. ;)[/quote]

:o

:P