A Baptism dilemma

[Pebble thats Stubby]

A few weeks ago I was asked to be one of my friends daughters God parents. Now the Parents themselves aren't exactly religious this is something the mum wants and thinks is nice to have done. They are getting both children christened at the same time. Now when they spoke to their daughter apparently the first thing she said was "Can I have Pebble?" Since I said yes apparently she's been dancing around and telling everyone many times. (I have no idea how I became so popular)



Unfortunately the Vicar says I don't qualify because I have never been Christened or baptised. He is prepared to baptise me a couple of days before the christening but first I have to attend some special sessions and classes (and go to church every Sunday unit then - There is no getting out of it and pretending we went to a different Church as the one booked for the Christening is our local church).


now I don't believe in God. I believe in the possibility of God (absence of proof is not proof of absence ect) I would feel a fraud if I went through with my baptism. I am perfectly happy to go to classes if really necessary as a God Parent (although I'd rather not) I am supposed to have a knowledge of the Bible (even if I don't believe it) and I would encourage the child to find out about god for themselves so she can make her own decision.

Normally this would not really be much of a problem, I would say my friends should find someone else. However this means I'd have to upset a little girl who for some reason idolises me who I don't think will understand why I can not be her god parent.



So do I suck it up, do the classes, go to church every Sunday (which also means dragging Hubby along cos it would be strange as he's gonna be a God father to her Brother and we don't want to give the Vicar any reason to doubt us) and then go through with a sham baptism so I can be a God Mother. Or do I disappoint a little girl?



And If I disappoint that little girl how do I make her understand that its not her fault and that I still think she's wonderful and special?

any advise please?

[Shryke]

Not to be mean or anything, but if you go through with a sham baptism, your a sham God Mother.

Sounds like a hell of a big web of lies. And kinda ... dumb. I can't believe a Vicar suggested this.

[S John]

I always thought you could pick whoever the hell you want to be God parents.

[Ormond]

Can't you tell the 3 year old that although you can't be her godmother, you can be her "best honorary aunt" or something similar?

If the parents aren't that religious any way, they should also be able to consider you an "honorary godmother" without requiring you to go through ceremonies that are contrary to what you really believe, IMHO.

[Shryke]

[quote name='S John' post='1754746' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.56']I always thought you could pick whoever the hell you want to be God parents.[/quote]

Depends on your denomination I imagine.

And considering the whole point of God Parents (originally anyway) was to raise their God Children as Christians if the parents died, requiring the God Parents to also be christian is not exactly surprising.

[Blaine]

You've already missed the opportunity to do what me and the wife had to do - which is lie through our teeth.

We're both of the same non-belief/belief as you are and we don't attend church. However, both of our mothers were dead set on having our daughter baptized. We discussed the matter pretty thoroughly and even though we don't believe in it - we felt that both grandmothers deserved some guy in a weird outfit sprinkling water on the kid's head - if it makes them happy.

That's when the problems came in. For starters, we're not members of any church. And neither of the grandmothers' churches would perform a baptism unless we joined. That's where we drew the line. We're not joining a church for this. We didn't think it was right.

So finally a family friend and preacher agreed to do it, provided that we promise to join a church and obey his rules of "raising a child in God's love" or somesuch. So we just said, "sure, of course." We still don't have any intention of joining a church or reading the Bible to the kid everyday. We have no problem with grandparents taking her to sunday school - as long as she doesn't mind going. At her age, all they do is color pictures of Jesus anyway. And the kid likes to color.

Still, the whole thing was a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, my whole life I've had Christians trying to convince me to believe in God, join their church, not kill unborn babies - but the one time I give an inch - they want nothing to do with blessing my kid. Ridiculous.

Many times throughout this process I swore this is the last time I'm getting dragged into any more religious shenanigans from our family.

[Bellis]

This is a hard situation that pretty much exemplifies all the reasons why people who aren't religious stay in religions - social blackmail. Not that I'm not sympathetic - quite the opposite.

Don't do it.

You'll be a better "godparent" to your child if you keep your integrity. Depending on her age, you can explain that she needs to have someone from her Church, and you aren't part of that Church (because you aren't!!). Tell her that you'll always be her friend and if she likes, she can consider you her "secret" godparent. I dunno. Might end up having her lose her faith. But I don't think introducing her to the idea of religious pluralism (that all her friends and guardian figures aren't going to be the same religion) is a bad thing, and might be better than having her assume that you're more religious than you are.

[Shryke]

[quote]Still, the whole thing was a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, my whole life I've had Christians trying to convince me to believe in God, join their church, not kill unborn babies - but the one time I give an inch - they want nothing to do with blessing my kid. Ridiculous.[/quote]

It's not blessing your kid. It's, essentially, making your kid a Christian. Why would it surprise you that whatever Church you wanted to go to wasn't interested in aiding you in scamming your parents? This actually means something to them.

[Eurytus]

I wouldn't allow yourself to be blackmailed by this vicar.
Why are the parents bothering with this if they are not religious?
The kid may not understand now but kids don't understand a lot of the reasons why things can't happen the way they want when they are young, including why every day can't be christmas, but that doesn't mean you should be afraid of disappointing them in the realities of the world.

[Eponine]

My first instinct is to say "Oh no, don't compromise your beliefs". I'm sure that's a big surprise to everyone.

I guess that you should evaluate exactly what compromises that you'll have to make, what the significance is to you and to others, and how you would feel about yourself afterward. If you do this, are you being untrue to yourself? Are you ok with proclaiming beliefs that you don't really have?

In all the churches I've been in, baptism as an adult is a deliberate outward and public sign of repentance and calling on Jesus for salvation. Some churches believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, and a lot more churches believe that baptism is a command from God that all Christians should obey, even if it's not a salvation dealbreaker.

Acts 2:38-41
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Are you willing to get up in front of the entire church and act as if you believe that?

I guess it's also no surprise that I got pressured into baptism for a much less noble reason and I regret it. Not because I attach some significance to the baptism itself, but because I let other people and circumstances control me. However, I would respect if you decided that being a god parent to a child who requested it was worth the trade off, not that you need my respect!

[Ormond]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754756' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.02']Still, the whole thing was a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, my whole life I've had Christians trying to convince me to believe in God, join their church, not kill unborn babies - but the one time I give an inch - they want nothing to do with blessing my kid. Ridiculous.[/quote]

BAPTISM is not the same thing as "blessing". Did you ever ask any of the clergy you consulted to design a service that was just a "blessing" and not a baptism?

Baptism means that you are agreeing to raise the child in the Christian faith. It isn't just asking God to protect or do good things for the child.

[Altherion]

Does the ritual actually involve you having to lie? I am not all that familiar with it, but if it's just a matter of them pouring water on you, then there is nothing fake about it -- it's just a matter of participating in one ritual so as to be allowed to participate in another.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1754765' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.08']It's not blessing your kid. It's, essentially, making your kid a Christian.[/quote]
Not this particular church, which I also was forced to go to as a kid. They made it pretty clear you can't be a Christian there until you're "saved."

[quote]Why would it surprise you that whatever Church you wanted to go to wasn't interested in aiding you in scamming your parents? This actually means something to them.[/quote]
You're not reading very well. This wasn't my plan and I wasn't scamming anyone. I arranged nothing, all I agreed to do was be there. I made my religious opinion known throughout (except at the home christening/baptism whateveritwas when I said I would "think seriously about" joining a church).

And my understanding was that this was for my kid's benefit, not mine. I (mistakenly) thought the church would want to bless this innocent child. Turns out they don't care about innocent kids unless I agree to join their flock. Which I wasn't going to do.

[Arbor Gold]

[quote name='Pebble that Hides' post='1754726' date='Apr 14 2009, 11.42']However this means I'd have to upset a little girl who for some reason idolises me who I don't think will understand why I can not be her god parent.[/quote]
She's three, right? She'll get over it. You'll still be part of her life.

[Mo Sneachd]

Give it a year or two, and the child will understand a rational explanation why you weren't their godparent.

Give it about ten years, and you might have a militant atheist/christian who blames you for taking a false baptism.

Personally, if you don't feel comfortable with the baptism, don't do it. Be there for the kid in other ways. I never had a godparent, but I have had people who were there for me despite religion. And that's all that matters.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754788' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.18']Not this particular church, which I also was forced to go to as a kid. They made it pretty clear you can't be a Christian there until you're "saved."


You're not reading very well. This wasn't my plan and I wasn't scamming anyone. I arranged nothing, all I agreed to do was be there. I made my religious opinion known throughout (except at the home christening/baptism whateveritwas when I said I would "think seriously about" joining a church).

And my understanding was that this was for my kid's benefit, not mine. I (mistakenly) thought the church would want to bless this innocent child. Turns out they don't care about innocent kids unless I agree to join their flock. Which I wasn't going to do.[/quote]

You described baptism as "some guy in a weird outfit sprinkling water on the kid's head".
You had no intention of raising your kid as a Christian.
Your only getting the kid baptised to appease someone else.

Why is it surprising whatever Church you went to had no interest in going along with this charade?

[Ormond]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754788' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.18']And my understanding was that this was for my kid's benefit, not mine. I (mistakenly) thought the church would want to bless this innocent child. Turns out they don't care about innocent kids unless I agree to join their flock. Which I wasn't going to do.[/quote]

See my post above. Baptism is not the same thing as "blessing innocent children." They might have been quite willing to hold a "blessing" of a child as long as it wasn't a baptism, which by definition means that you are agreeing to raise the child in the Christian faith.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754756' date='Apr 14 2009, 20.02']You've already missed the opportunity to do what me and the wife had to do - which is lie through our teeth.[/quote]

well we tried lying but he went a checked church records.


The hard thing is that the child already knows I agreed and to suddenly turn arround and now say no is going back on my word. Yeah we will try and make her understand and that I will be her special Auntie (and maybe having a little ceremany declairing this) Whatever I do I just feel bad.


Eurytus - I think they are bothering to please other family members and it makes things easyier if the children later want to mary in a church. It has been suggested that they have a civil naming ceremany instead but thats their decsion.


I guess the Vicar is hoping that by the time the baptisum occurs I would have converted and fully believe. Which is what also what worries me. What if I do the lessons and go to church like he asks only a few days before he changes his mind and still refuses.

[Hereward]

[quote name='Pebble that Hides' post='1754726' date='Apr 14 2009, 19.42']any advice please?[/quote]

I'm going to take a guess and say this is CofE. If not, just ignore this.

Relax, half the clergy in the CofE don't believe in God!

Alternatively, or additionally, the Christening is one of the traditional social gatherings of our society. Atheists have yet to replace it. So I say you do what I did and agree, and promise to do your best by your godchild, always be there for them for advice, etc, and console yourself with the thought that you're less of a hypocrite than people who believe, agree, and then take no notice of the child from then on.

[naz]

Speaking as a religious person, I wholeheartedly discourage you from doing it. To me, there's little worse than people undergoing religious ritual that is contrary to their own beliefs. Believe or disbelieve what you want, but at least have conviction. I think going through with it would be disrespectful to your friends' church since, regardless of what you believe, it's a meaningful ritual to the church's followers. And it would also be disrespectful to yourself, imho.

And the kid will get over it. Really.