A Baptism dilemma

[Angalin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1754749' date='Apr 14 2009, 13.58']Depends on your denomination I imagine.

And considering the whole point of God Parents (originally anyway) was to raise their God Children as Christians if the parents died, requiring the God Parents to also be christian is not exactly surprising.[/quote]
As well, the trad Anglican/C of E service has the godparents agreeing to accept Jesus as saviour on behalf of the child. It's a little difficult to get around that if, say, one of the godparents is Jewish. ;)

The Things were baptised because I wanted them to be, not for any particular religious reasons; that my godparents have played a huge and enriching part in my life influenced my decision greatly. I wanted them to have extra, non-parental adults in their lives with a kind of official status to take an interest in them and care about them. (I also set up legal guardians in the will who are not godparents, btw.) However, they do each have a godparent who is a strong Catholic to counterbalance the heathens, which turned out to be an acceptably wishy-washy Anglican compromise, as the Catholic godfather would put it.

If this is the Church of England, I can't believe the vicar is getting sticky about it at all, because at least one bishop has gone on the record saying he didn't believe that Christ was the Son of God. :rolleyes: Wrong profession, maybe? Here, the first vicar I approached was all hoity-toity about baptising them, but I found another one who was more flexible and didn't insist on classes, etc. Hooray for vicar-shopping, say I! :cheers:

[Eurytus]

[quote name='Pebble that Hides' post='1754802' date='Apr 14 2009, 12.24']Eurytus - I think they are bothering to please other family members and it makes things easyier if the children later want to mary in a church. It has been suggested that they have a civil naming ceremany instead but thats their decsion.


I guess the Vicar is hoping that by the time the baptisum occurs I would have converted and fully believe. Which is what also what worries me. What if I do the lessons and go to church like he asks only a few days before he changes his mind and still refuses.[/quote]

I seriously wonder what kind of Vicar thinks that Jesus would approve of refusing someone a Christian wedding because of something they did not do as a child. Or refusing to put a (Christian approved) support structure in place for a child because one adult was not baptized.

[Hereward]

[quote name='nazfyratu' post='1754807' date='Apr 14 2009, 20.26']Speaking as a religious person, I wholeheartedly discourage you from doing it. To me, there's little worse than people undergoing religious ritual that is contrary to their own beliefs.[/quote]

Little worse? Please.

This is a post-Christian society. There's a saying, and not a new one, that the Church of England is for "hatching, matching and dispatching", and that's it. It exists to fulfill the function of social cohesiveness in many places. Not even most of its own clergy push for religious belief as a prerequisite.

[Isis]

This seems to come from the same place as people who want a BIG CHURCH WEDDING because it's pretty and will look cute in the photos but aren't religious in the slightest. I think this is insulting to people who are religious.

That said, I appreciate that you are concerned about the child involved and that you do want to play this role in her life (you do, right?). I am sure that there is a way for you to do this without pretending that you love Jesus. If the girls' parents desperately want it to be a religious thing I'd suggest you let someone who actually believes take your official God Parent place. And then you can have some other way cool non-official ceremony to announce your alternative role. Preferably involving cake, ice cream, fairy wings, glitter and that kind of thing.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Ormond' post='1754782' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.17']BAPTISM is not the same thing as "blessing". Did you ever ask any of the clergy you consulted to design a service that was just a "blessing" and not a baptism?

Baptism means that you are agreeing to raise the child in the Christian faith. It isn't just asking God to protect or do good things for the child.[/quote]
Again, I didn't do the asking - but this was the option I was given by the grandmothers who set it up. Wasn't aware there was a blessing option - I don't know if there is at their churches - or I would have negotiated them to do that instead. My guess is they don't have that option, since neither church offered it, only refused unless the parents (us) agreed to join their church.

[The_BlauerDragon]

The 3 year old will get over it. Don't fake religion for any reason. If you don't believe, then don't believe. Don't fake it. There are far too many people faking it as is (and that's where a lot of problems come from).

I'll stay off of my soapbox and spare you the lecture on why it is not a good idea for a 3 year old to be partaking in religious ceremonies.

[Brienne the Beauty]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754788' date='Apr 14 2009, 19.18']And my understanding was that this was for my kid's benefit, not mine. I (mistakenly) thought the church would want to bless this innocent child. Turns out they don't care about innocent kids unless I agree to join their flock. Which I wasn't going to do.[/quote]

That's a cynical way of looking at it.

Being a godparent is rather like sponsoring someone to join a club. You have to be a member of the club already.

Baptism is not just a blessing ceremony. It is a promise to help bring the child up in that faith. If you can't make that promise, then you are not a candidate for being a godparent. It's not a slight on you, or the child.

Many churches are more liberal and do not care about the religion of the godparents. Maybe you should try finding one of those churches rather than compromising either your principles or the vicar's principles.

[Silverstar]

I was asked to be godmother to my stepniece. However, I wasn't christened either (as my parents decided they would rather leave that decision up to me and my sister when we were old enough to understand).

I was told that I could instead be something called a 'sponsor', which is pretty much the same thing, in reality. I didn't have to go to any classes or anything, but still took part in the ceremony in the same way. A sponsor is different from a godparent under the C of E rules, I guess, but as far as my niece and her parents are concerned, I'm known as her godmother.

Could you see if something like that is possible for you?

[Blaine]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1754800' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.23']You described baptism as "some guy in a weird outfit sprinkling water on the kid's head".
You had no intention of raising your kid as a Christian.
Your only getting the kid baptised to appease someone else.

Why is it surprising whatever Church you went to had no interest in going along with this charade?[/quote]
I have no intention of steering my kid towards any religion or non-religion. She can believe in whatever she wants. If she wants to go to church with grandma every Sunday, I wouldn't object in the slightest. But whatever.

For the record, I was raised in the church, went to a devout Christian high school and I know who the guy in the weird outfit is - I just don't believe in it. Never did.

[Angalin]

[quote name='Hereward' post='1754805' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.26']I'm going to take a guess and say this is CofE. If not, just ignore this.

Relax, half the clergy in the CofE don't believe in God!

Alternatively, or additionally, the Christening is one of the traditional social gatherings of our society. Atheists have yet to replace it. So I say you do what I did and agree, and promise to do your best by your godchild, always be there for them for advice, etc, and console yourself with the thought that you're less of a hypocrite than people who believe, agree, and then take no notice of the child from then on.[/quote]
:agree:

The friends who attend Anglican services most regularly view it as a sort of social club. They like going, they like the community and the good works part of it, but they're really not that fussed about the religious part - and they are probably in a large minority, if not the majority, by feeling this way. For another denomination I would advise differently, but I'm with Hereward on this one.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Eurytus' post='1754812' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.29']I seriously wonder what kind of Vicar thinks that Jesus would approve of refusing someone a Christian wedding because of something they did not do as a child. Or refusing to put a (Christian approved) support structure in place for a child because one adult was not baptized.[/quote]

This isn't "one adult", it's the God Parent. There's God right in the fucking title, so belief in said God as a prerequisite isn't surprising since belief in God is the POINT of a God Parent.


Now, of course, this seems to be slightly muddier because the Church of England apparently barely qualifies as Christian anymore. I'm coming from a Catholic perspective where this sort of stuff is routine.

[BLU-RAY]

Church of England?

...

CAKE OR DEATH???

[Blaine]

[quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1754827' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.35']That's a cynical way of looking at it.

Being a godparent is rather like sponsoring someone to join a club. You have to be a member of the club already.[/quote]
Or you could fake being in the club for 18 years like I used to have to. Now I don't. You say "cynical", I say "honest."

[quote]Baptism is not just a blessing ceremony. It is a promise to help bring the child up in that faith. If you can't make that promise, then you are not a candidate for being a godparent. It's not a slight on you, or the child.[/quote]
Tell that to the grandmothers. They were convinced the kid will be doomed without one.

[quote]Many churches are more liberal and do not care about the religion of the godparents. Maybe you should try finding one of those churches rather than compromising either your principles or the vicar's principles.[/quote]
I don't consider my principles compromised - as I don't really care. I had a lot more trouble pretending I was "saved" until I could graduate and go to college. That being said, I didn't bother looking for a more liberal church, because this wasn't [i]my[/i] desire - just the grandparents.

At this point, the only regret I have is sharing it with you guys. :P

[Shryke]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754834' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.38']I have no intention of steering my kid towards any religion or non-religion. She can believe in whatever she wants. If she wants to go to church with grandma every Sunday, I wouldn't object in the slightest. But whatever.

For the record, I was raised in the church, went to a devout Christian high school and I know who the guy in the weird outfit is - I just don't believe in it. Never did.[/quote]

I don't care whether you believe or not or whether your gonna raise your kid Chrisitan or not or whatever. That's your business.

I just can't figure out why you'd be surprised that the Churchs you went to see a Baptism as a something that actually matters.

[quote]Tell that to the grandmothers. They were convinced the kid will be doomed without one.[/quote]

Well, yeah. They probably believe that if the kid isn't baptised, he's going to hell cause he's not Christian. The fact that a sham baptism would technically be just as bad as no baptism at all never seems to cross these people's minds for some reasons though.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

[quote name='Silverstar' post='1754832' date='Apr 14 2009, 20.37']I was asked to be godmother to my stepniece. However, I wasn't christened either (as my parents decided they would rather leave that decision up to me and my sister when we were old enough to understand).

I was told that I could instead be something called a 'sponsor', which is pretty much the same thing, in reality. I didn't have to go to any classes or anything, but still took part in the ceremony in the same way. A sponsor is different from a godparent under the C of E rules, I guess, but as far as my niece and her parents are concerned, I'm known as her godmother.

Could you see if something like that is possible for you?[/quote]


This sounds like a solution. I will talk to the parents about this.

Yes its a C of E

and Yes I will take an interest in her life. I see that as a big part of what I have been asked to do.

[Brienne the Beauty]

[quote name='Eurytus' post='1754812' date='Apr 14 2009, 19.29']I seriously wonder what kind of Vicar thinks that Jesus would approve of refusing someone a Christian wedding because of something they did not do as a child.[/quote]

No church in the world will refuse a person a wedding because they were not baptized as an infant. However, some churches will only marry baptized Christians. Baptism can be done at any stage in life. You can get baptized five minutes before your wedding if you want.

Baptism is a symbolic act of introduction into the Christian community. It doesn't make sense for non-Christian parents to do it to their children any more than it makes sense for non-Jewish parents to take their baby boy to the rabbi to get circumcised.

[Blaine]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1754845' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.43']I just can't figure out why you'd be surprised that the Churchs you went to see a Baptism as a something that actually matters.[/quote]
Because I apparently don't know enough about Baptism to care appropriately? I thought it was more of a blessing for a child, less of a "JOIN THIS CHURCH NOW" proposition. Try to contain your disbelief.

[quote]They probably believe that if the kid isn't baptised, he's going to hell cause he's not Christian. The fact that a sham baptism would technically be just as bad as no baptism at all never seems to cross these people's minds for some reasons though.[/quote]
I attempted that argument. They seem to think if I let them take her to church occasionally that it'll be good enough for their Lord.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Blaine23' post='1754859' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.48']Because I apparently don't know enough about Baptism to care appropriately? I thought it was more of a blessing for a child, less of a "JOIN THIS CHURCH NOW" proposition. Try to contain your disbelief.[/quote]

Ahh. Yeah, Baptism is a pretty big deal.

[BlueRose]

[quote name='Isis' post='1754818' date='Apr 14 2009, 12.31']And then you can have some other way cool non-official ceremony to announce your alternative role. Preferably involving cake, ice cream, fairy wings, glitter and that kind of thing.[/quote]

I really like this idea. Make up your own ceremony, she'll think it's great. I agree with those people saying that you shouldn't fake believing if you don't.

[Brienne the Beauty]

A lot of Christian sects (Baptist) believe strongly that the child should make its own decision when old enough. The reason for infant baptism was to comfort parents in the days when infant mortality was huge. It ensured that the child went to heaven even if too young to accept Christ as saviour.