A Baptism dilemma

[Brienne the Beauty]

I think that the thing where godparents take care of the child if it is orphaned is probably an urban legend. Social services would decide what is best for the child in the event of it being orphaned suddenly. I think most orphans go to the nearest relative who is able and willing to take care of them.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1755053' date='Apr 14 2009, 17.58']I think that the thing where godparents take care of the child if it is orphaned is probably an urban legend. Social services would decide what is best for the child in the event of it being orphaned suddenly. I think most orphans go to the nearest relative who is able and willing to take care of them.[/quote]

It's not an urban legend so much as it is "this was the original idea behind godparents". Someone to raise the kid Christian if the parents died.

[Angalin]

[quote name='The Mance' post='1754931' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.41']My sister and I (both of us raised as Jews) had non-secular godparents so that in the event we were orphaned we would have somebody to raise us. I've never even known that there were such strong religious traditions related to the positon.[/quote]
Vicar #1 said the godparents' main responsibility was to take the children to church if we the parents didn't. All I could think was, hey, if I wanted them to be Catholics, I'd baptize them there - the most churchy godparents of the lot were, as I said, strict Catholics who would have been happy to bring them over to the other side. ;) I also disagree with Vicar #1's view: I think there's a lot more to godparenting than simply taking the children to church. Godparents are good to have around - but if both parents die in a car crash, the deceased had better have a will naming guardians or it'll be up to the state to decide who will look after the children. Now that is frightening.

[quote name='Jaqen the FatManderly' post='1754958' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.57']I am continually surprised at the complete lack of respect and consideration for other peoples' beliefs shown by a large number of contributors to this board.

Do these people display the same ignorance, prejudice, and discourtesy out there in a world of many cultures, beliefs, and traditions?

Most everyone I know, even the ones least likely to seek the company of those of different backgrounds, will make a conscious effort to respect others as best they can: dressing appropriately for a religious service, removing shoes where appropriate, using formal modes of address where that is preferred, accomodating dietary restrictions.[/quote]
Technically I'm an Anglican, and I'm being rude about my own church, which is one that allows great latitude in belief. What's wrong with that? I think Mennonites are missing out on a lot by banning dancing, and any sect that doesn't allow coffee is one I can't ever join, but I'm not telling the former to take dance lessons or slipping espresso into the chocolate cheesecake at one of the latter's meetings. Though Quakers are out too - [i]no talking[/i]??? :stunned:

[potsherds]

[quote name='Hereward' post='1754815' date='Apr 14 2009, 20.30']Little worse? Please.

This is a post-Christian society. There's a saying, and not a new one, that the Church of England is for "hatching, matching and dispatching", and that's it. It exists to fulfill the function of social cohesiveness in many places. Not even most of its own clergy push for religious belief as a prerequisite.[/quote]
Ha! Awesome. Now that's the sort of Christian religion I can live with. :P (As long as I don't [i]personally[/i] have to waste my Sunday mornings.)

[The_BlauerDragon]

Simple question. If you fake it, is that the example that you would like to set for the child? That it's okay to falsify yourself and your beliefs whenever it's convenient?

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1755094' date='Apr 14 2009, 23.27']Simple question. If you fake it, is that the example that you would like to set for the child? That it's okay to falsify yourself and your beliefs whenever it's convenient?[/quote]

That's unfair. It's not about Pebs' convenience, it's that she doesn't want to disappoint the little girl. That doesn't change the issue, but it's owrth saying.

[The Mance]

[quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1755053' date='Apr 14 2009, 14.58']I think that the thing where godparents take care of the child if it is orphaned is probably an urban legend. Social services would decide what is best for the child in the event of it being orphaned suddenly. I think most orphans go to the nearest relative who is able and willing to take care of them.[/quote]

Well it was made to sound rather ominous when it was explained to me back when I was 9 or 10. Though, as the issue never came up, and given that their duties were largely to come to birthdays, bar mitzvahs and etc for a while and then fade into obscurity, I'm sure you're right that its more of an informal cultural nicety, at least for the non-religious.

[The_BlauerDragon]

[quote name='HT Reddy' post='1755096' date='Apr 14 2009, 15.29']That's unfair. It's not about Pebs' convenience, it's that she doesn't want to disappoint the little girl. That doesn't change the issue, but it's owrth saying.[/quote]
I don't mean it to sound cruel, but I think it is worth saying. Kids eventually grow up. That kid will eventually be old enough to understand your lack of religion, and will eventually know that you had to fake it in order to become the GodMother. The message that child receives through no fault of Peb's might very well be "I don't believe, but I was happy to perjure myself to avoid the inconvenience of having to explain that to you." which roughly translates into "Personal beliefs and convictions are meaningless, feel free to lie your way through life as you please. Forget all of the 'to thine own self be true' crap. Just fake it. it's okay to be a hypocrite."

[Sophelia]

I wouldn't want to advise you, Pebble, as it depends what principles you value most highly, and how strongly you feel about it.

I wouldn't do it myself, but I am not only quite a militant atheist, but also prioritise my own integrity and honesty over other people's feelings (which is not necessarily a virtue).

[quote name='Hereward' post='1754805' date='Apr 14 2009, 20.26']Alternatively, or additionally, the Christening is one of the traditional social gatherings of our society. Atheists have yet to replace it.[/quote]
Humanist groups do naming ceremonies.

(Not that most atheists belong to a humanist group so it isn't a huge weekly social thing like traditional church membership. Plus it's just 'ripping off' religion, rather than being original about it (well, it's a social tradition that some people seem to have a need for). But then, humanists are not big on ceremony in the first place.)

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1755111' date='Apr 14 2009, 23.39']I don't mean it to sound cruel, but I think it is worth saying. Kids eventually grow up. That kid will eventually be old enough to understand your lack of religion, and will eventually know that you had to fake it in order to become the GodMother. The message that child receives through no fault of Peb's might very well be "I don't believe, but I was happy to perjure myself to avoid the inconvenience of having to explain that to you." which roughly translates into "Personal beliefs and convictions are meaningless, feel free to lie your way through life as you please. Forget all of the 'to thine own self be true' crap. Just fake it. it's okay to be a hypocrite."[/quote]

Oh yeh, I do agree with you in principle, but I just wanted to say that Pebs considering getting baptised even though she isn't a believer is motivated by compassion rather than convenience.

[buy one get one free]

okay, here's a convoluted story:

I was born and raised Catholic by a strict Catholic mother. I, in turn, had all my children baptized and considered the role of godparent very seriously, not just an honorary position. Catholic godparents do not need to raise a child if something happens to the parents, they are only to ensure that the child is being taught and raised Catholic, no matter who their guardians are.

Now, fast forward a few years. I am now an practicing non-Catholic. I still raise my children Catholic (the elementary and middle school age ones), they and most everyone assumes I am Catholic because I go to church and even lector, though I do not take communion. My mother's heart would be horribly broken if she knew I was atheist and I really see no need to do that to her. Honesty schmonesty. It is overrated sometimes.

Two years ago, my brother and his wife had their first baby. Believing I was a good Catholic, they asked me to be the Godmother. I had to refuse them and even harder to do, explain why I was refusing the honor (it was hard only because my sister in law is a blabbermouth and I am willing to bet if she hasn't already told my mom, will someday in a fit of spitefulness).

A week or so later, they came back to me and said, "We talked to our priest and he said if you can keep the promise of ensuring Meredith is raised Catholic, you can still be her godmother." Since I am raising my own children to be Catholic--at least until they refuse to be confirmed, which 2 of my kids have done so far--I accepted.

Is all this fucked up to save the heart of an old strict Catholic woman? Maybe, maybe not. I happen to think the Catholic Church does way more good than bad, so I don't feel too awfully hypocritical. I just don't believe in God, myself.

So.....Pebble....I think you could go either way and it would be fine. It is what you are most comfortable living with yourself with.

[Tyria]

Mr. Tyr is a godparent to his friend's little girl. He was baptised as a baby, even though he is quite a militant atheist now. His friend is also an atheist and was not baptised. The wife is the semi-religious one. I don't know if the priest allowed the ceremony, because it was in the chapel on the naval base (his friend is in the Canadian navy). Maybe they are a little laxer there? I dunno. Growing up in a non-religious household with very little exposure to religion, most things I know about religion I seem to get from this board :P

The ceremony was nice, I guess. I spent most of the time chasing around their older boy who was about two at the time. The one part I did have to laugh at (and I'm aware that this will more than likely offend a few people here) was when they were doing some prayer, and when the priest got to the part about renouncing Satan, both Mr. Tyr and his friend didn't repeat that part. They just bowed their heads and smirked. I almost had to get up and leave. I guess you have to know these two guys. They're both tattooed from head to toe pretty much (actually, so is the mother of the kids). I thought I was going to burst out laughing. I guess Tenacious D was right. You cannot kill the Metal. The Metal will live on. \m/

[Brienne the Beauty]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1755066' date='Apr 14 2009, 23.06']It's not an urban legend so much as it is "this was the original idea behind godparents". Someone to raise the kid Christian if the parents died.[/quote]

Maybe it was true once. But these days we have social services, who take into account the current condition of the family of an orphan, and are more likely to favour placement with a blood relative. Custom and tradition is not the same as law. People who think their common-law marriages are recognized in the eyes of the law make the same mistake.

[HT Reddy]

[quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1755177' date='Apr 15 2009, 00.09']Maybe it was true once. But these days we have social services, who take into account the current condition of the family of an orphan, and are more likely to favour placement with a blood relative. Custom and tradition is not the same as law. People who think their common-law marriages are recognized in the eyes of the law make the same mistake.[/quote]

I think we all know this, including Shryke

[Shryke]

Yeah. Basically "No Shit".

But that doesn't mean the idea of the God Parents adopting and raising the kid is an urban legend. It just means it's an old function of the position that isn't applicable anymore.

[Guest thebadlady]

Fake it, as long as faking it is ok with the parents. You said yes without saying, yes, but if they make me do something religious I quit. Its the god in godparent part that lets you know the religion will be involved.

Teach the kid about tasty athiest beliefs later. You will have time.

[Geddon]

[quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1755094' date='Apr 14 2009, 23.27']Simple question. If you fake it, is that the example that you would like to set for the child? That it's okay to falsify yourself and your beliefs whenever it's convenient?[/quote]

How about teaching her that it's best to humour people if you can do so without any great cost to yourself? That part of life is accepting people's strange beliefs and peccadilloes without constantly challenging them. That there are times when you make a stand, and times when you shrug and grin and let the tide carry you along.

If my little niece wanted me to be her god parent I'd do whatever I could to make sure that happened. If that meant letting somebody splash water on me, or required me to say I believe in spirits or bearded dudes on clouds, or even resulted in me wearing a funny hat and capering like a monkey, well, that's what I'd do.

If they wanted me to burn a few old ladies as witches, or ride off to take Jerusalem back with fire and sword before they'd let me join the club then that'd be different. But if all it takes is a few tedious mornings spent sat on uncomfortable wooden benches and a little bit of make believe then sign me up and pass the wine and wafers. It costs me nothing to indulge the faithful, I'd be willing to endure a lot more to make somebody I care about happy.

[Eponine]

[quote name='Brienne the Beauty' post='1755053' date='Apr 14 2009, 17.58']I think that the thing where godparents take care of the child if it is orphaned is probably an urban legend. Social services would decide what is best for the child in the event of it being orphaned suddenly. I think most orphans go to the nearest relative who is able and willing to take care of them.[/quote]

Actually this WAS the function of my godparents, along with a responsibility to raise me as a Christian.

Blauer mentioned that the kid might be disturbed to discover that her godmother had faked belief. If my parents had picked a non-Christian godmother for me (oh right, like that was ever going to happen :uhoh: , but let's just say it did) I wouldn't be perturbed to know now that she had gone through with a baptism for my sake, ESPECIALLY if it meant that she would be my guardian if anything happened to my parents. I wouldn't personally do it for pretty much the reason Sophelia gave, but I certainly would not view it as someone lying their way through life.


[quote name='buy one get one free']Now, fast forward a few years. I am now an practicing non-Catholic. I still raise my children Catholic (the elementary and middle school age ones), they and most everyone assumes I am Catholic because I go to church and even lector, though I do not take communion. My mother's heart would be horribly broken if she knew I was atheist and I really see no need to do that to her. Honesty schmonesty. It is overrated sometimes.[/quote]

I envy you.

This is not going to sound good, but one of the reasons that I'm glad that I don't want kids (not to be confused with one of the reasons that I don't want kids) is because it would just be such a horrific clusterfuck trying to raise them outside the church with my parents not just concerned that I was going to hell, but that I was also sending my kids to hell. If I ever did want kids in the future, I would feel compelled to wait until my parents passed away, and that is just such a horrible thing to say, but I think I would have a breakdown with them telling me that I was putting their souls in danger... or else I would have to shut them out of my life to a large extent... neither option is acceptable to me.

[Shryke]

Look on the bright side though Eponine. You could look forward to the day when, coming back from vacation, you find out your grandparents had your kids baptised while you were gone.

It happened to one of my best friends. It was hilarious because he's the LEAST religious guy I know. He only found out at the age of 25 when he went to get married and his parents are like "Oh btw, your baptised so you COULD get married in a Church if you really wanted." His parents had just never bothered to mention it to him till then.

[mashiara]

Pebs, don't do it. There is no reason to go through with a charade like that and pretend to be something you're not. There is no reason to be false to yourself and to your beliefs. Don't agree to become a Christian (because that's exactly what a baptism is, even if it's just empty words to most people these days) just so you can take part in a ceremony that both you and the parents think of as a social event only. Let them find someone who is already baptized to do this. The child is only 3 and will understand eventually, when she's older and you can explain things to her. Until then, be her "super secret godmother" or something like that.

As a Christian, I find it sad that so many people in this thread think there's nothing seriously wrong with 'faking it'. I respect whatever stance you've chosen to take in your lives. Why would you make a mockery of other peoples' beliefs?