Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[DocBean]

Ok found it:

I have thought this also. There is a vague referrence somewhere to a legend saying that the steam in Winterfell was created by a great Dragon that slept beneath the castle and there is also Mel's obsession with waking a stone Dragon... Winterfell was mostly stone, and all myths have at least some basis in truth. Had a Dragon egg been stashed in or beneath the castle at some point, and people heard about it... It would not be hard to see how "They have a Dragon egg" would end up being repeated as "There's a great Dragon sleeping beneath their castle"... I also got the impression that the vision was much more than just smoke... and since I am thoroughly against the idea that Jon has so much as a drop of Targaryen blood anywhere in his body (unless he turned vampire on poor maester Aemon), it would make a lot of sense to me to have it actually be a Dragon that was hatched in the fires.

I think this is your vague reference about the steam being created by dragons deep in winterfells crypts:

from the Ned's Bones Thread:

Dragon 1 - "Hey Gene, whatcha got there? Another Rat?"

Dragon 2 - "Yep, thought I'd let this one wiggle around a bit before i eat it.

Hey Frank, aren't you getting sick of Rats and Grave Worms? I almost don't want to eat it."

Dragon 1 - Yes I am. Maybe we should try going up and see if there is anything else we could eat."

..... "Hodor, Hodor, Hodor..."

Dragon 1 - "what the hell was that!!???

........maybe we should go investigate"

Dragon 2 - "screw that, my Rat's gonna get cold, and it's dark down here, I say we just leave it alone, it can't be good."

Dragon 1 - "maybe you're right, let's stay down here a little longer, what's another 100 years?

.......hey Gene, you're rat's getting away."

In all seriousness, I don't think you guys are thinking about the location in the series.

It was at the end of the book. So it basically gave people something to chew over for a few years until the next book came out.

We would have heard about it in the following book if it was anything more then a red herring.

[nanother]

In all seriousness, I don't think you guys are thinking about the location in the series.

It was at the end of the book. So it basically gave people something to chew over for a few years until the next book came out.

We would have heard about it in the following book if it was anything more then a red herring.

You mean the book that was split into two?

Anyway, Mel's dragon project is still very much in progress, and I'd think that if it isn't a red herring then it'll tie into that one.

[Black Wizard]

When I read that bit with the dragon over Winterfell I assumed that it was a hallucination or some sort of second-sight.

[Jon Targaryen]

I think Bran is probably the most likely to warg a dragon and I am 99% certain a dragon warging will happen. So I just thought it was foreshadowing. If this dragon doesn't make an appearance to someone by the end of ADWD, it is very unlikely it exists imo.

[Three Dog Knight]

This is very interesting. I, too, thought it was foreshadowing...don't forget Dany's visions, which included a great stone beast taking wing from a smoking tower, were just a few chapters earlier. I figured this was foreshadowing the same event. Now I am not so sure. You could also say that Mel's visions of the dragon in the flames are misinterpreted as usual -- she thinks the is going to help wake it but it is already there (just like "Renly" defeating Stannis etc.).

If Bran is the "Winged Wolf", possibly somehow his awakening triggered the release of the dragon. Now I need to reread some of those parts and see if there are any clues.

[Black Wizard]

I think Bran is probably the most likely to warg a dragon and I am 99% certain a dragon warging will happen.

Surely Jon would be the most likely to Warg a dragon, assuming R+L=J is true. Being the of the "blood of the dragon" would make him the prime candidate to warg a dragon.

This is my 1000th post, so I wanted it to be something worthwhile.

[Jon Targaryen]

Surely Jon would be the most likely to Warg a dragon, assuming R+L=J is true. Being the of the "blood of the dragon" would make him the prime candidate to warg a dragon.

I think warging ability would have more to do with warging a dragon than being of Valyrian descent. Valyrian descent might help in controlling/taming/riding a dragon but imo the best warger would be the one most likely to warg a dragon.

Note: I kept up the use of the word "warg" but I suppose it would really be "skinchanging" a dragon as warging applies to wolves.

[Black Wizard]

Dragons are magical creatures though, and as far as I can tell Direwolves are just great big wolves. They are associated with the Targaryens just like the Direwolves are associated with the Starks. Dragons seem to be unwilling to submit to anyone who is not a Targaryen, so I think Valyrian descent would be essential for skingchanging into a dragon.

Bran may be the best skinchanger but Jon's skinchanging abilities may be more limited, with his speciality being a dragon.

[Baleraxar]

I think warging ability would have more to do with warging a dragon than being of Valyrian descent. Valyrian descent might help in controlling/taming/riding a dragon but imo the best warger would be the one most likely to warg a dragon.

Note: I kept up the use of the word "warg" but I suppose it would really be "skinchanging" a dragon as warging applies to wolves.

Well, technically "warg" isn't even a verb...

I've long thought that Bran will end up with a dragon. You don't think "fly" is purely metaphorical do you?

It will be one of Dany's, of course. I think the dragon of Winterfell is a lot of wishful thinking.

[nanother]

If this dragon doesn't make an appearance to someone by the end of ADWD, it is very unlikely it exists imo.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking as well.

I think warging ability would have more to do with warging a dragon than being of Valyrian descent. Valyrian descent might help in controlling/taming/riding a dragon but imo the best warger would be the one most likely to warg a dragon.

Fair point, if we assume that warging a dragon is the same as warging an animal. Which makes perfect sense, at this point. But then, there's a lot we don't know about dragons, like how intelligent they are, or how how much of a personality they have. I mean, it's possible that a dragon might show similar resistance as a human...in which case, warging ability might be less of a help than the potential to have the dragon's consent. In other words, you might have to tame them before you can warg them. We also don't know whether them being "magical" affects their wargability (hmm is that a word?).

edit: sorry Black, didnt see your post

[Black Wizard]

edit: sorry Black, didnt see your post

I forgive you.

[Jaqen Fett]

I'm gonna hypothesis here to answer your question about kingly blood. Perhaps it was the fire that woke the dragon. Maybe you need the kingly blood to control it. Therefore if the main theory of this thread is true, there is a huge dragon flying around in the North. The same area where there happens to be a King and a Red Woman looking for a dragon to sacrifice another king's bastard to.

Not to nitpick but if fire woke the dragon, what does the proximity of the fire have to be? Some random fire above ground should not impact a hibernating dragon underground. If so, then the dragon should have woken up during the murder attempt on Bran (when the library was set on fire). Also, geothermal heat (what presumably heats Winterfell's hot springs) would give off more heat underground (i.e. to a hibernating dragon) than an above ground heat source, even one that was much hotter b/c a hibernating dragon would be close to any underground source.

The only real possibility is that the dragon is somehow contained under Winterfell (BTW what is the lifespan of a dragon? It would have to be down there for a long time, no?) and then the general havoc in Winterfell above somehow weakened the containment

[Jon Targaryen]

Bran may be the best skinchanger but Jon's skinchanging abilities may be more limited, with his speciality being a dragon.

Jon may only be a warg and that is the limit of his skinchanging ability. We know Bran can go skinchange more than just Summer.

[Black Wizard]

Remember the three heads of the dragon: Daenerys, Jon and someone else. As one of the heads of the dragon it would make perfect sense for Jon to skinchange into a dragon.

[DomDayne]

Not sure if it has been mentioned up thread, but I just finished re-reading this chapter, and there was a line that Osha said that seemed to fit well with this topic. Not sure If Martin meant it to be foreboding or ironic but...

She says it just after they get out from the crypts. "We made noise enough to wake a dragon." Did they really? or is that just a saying in Westeros?

With regards to the Dragon not being mentioned by anyone, Theon, no letters sent to Robb or King's Lnading or anything. By the time it is seen in the Wolf Dream, Winterfell is deserted and it seems to me no one talks about it cause they didn't see it... The only thing i can see against this theory is Bran himself. While it was described through Summer, Bran saw exactly what it was and he doens't mention it at all when he wakes.

[Jon Targaryen]

Remember the three heads of the dragon: Daenerys, Jon and someone else. As one of the heads of the dragon it would make perfect sense for Jon to skinchange into a dragon.

Or it could make perfect sense that Jon would ride a dragon since he is able to do that (this assumes Rhaegar is his father) and a powerful skinchanger would skinchange the third dragon.

[Maester Joergensen]

The only thing i can see against this theory is Bran himself. While it was described through Summer, Bran saw exactly what it was and he doens't mention it at all when he wakes.

This is a very good point. The reason we see this through summers eyes, is not because we have a Summer POV but because Bran see through Summers eyes during a wolfdream. Summer might not be capable of realizing what he is seeing. But Bran sure would. And he doesn´t mention it afterwards. That may have something to do with his reluctance to talk about the wolfdreams with the Reeds. But with something as spectacular as a dragon I think he would make an exception.

[nanother]

Umm...if you read a page back, you'll see that I did make an attempt to explain why Bran doesn't mention it :huh:

[Mr. Natural]

This is a very good point. The reason we see this through summers eyes, is not because we have a Summer POV but because Bran see through Summers eyes during a wolfdream. Summer might not be capable of realizing what he is seeing. But Bran sure would. And he doesn´t mention it afterwards. That may have something to do with his reluctance to talk about the wolfdreams with the Reeds. But with something as spectacular as a dragon I think he would make an exception.

While Bran is warged through Summer he only notes things that Summer would notice and find important. For instance, he noticed the flying snake with wings as a potential enemy but when it disapeared it was no longer important as a potential rival. We already know that Bran has trouble remembering to do things Jojen asks him to do while warged so naturally Bran wouldn't remember something so inconsequencial to a wolf or his hunting ground.

Not to nitpick but if fire woke the dragon, what does the proximity of the fire have to be? Some random fire above ground should not impact a hibernating dragon underground. If so, then the dragon should have woken up during the murder attempt on Bran (when the library was set on fire). Also, geothermal heat (what presumably heats Winterfell's hot springs) would give off more heat underground (i.e. to a hibernating dragon) than an above ground heat source, even one that was much hotter b/c a hibernating dragon would be close to any underground source.

The only real possibility is that the dragon is somehow contained under Winterfell (BTW what is the lifespan of a dragon? It would have to be down there for a long time, no?) and then the general havoc in Winterfell above somehow weakened the containment

I don't have the books on me as I have them lent to a friend but could the dragon's awakening have anything to do with Ned's courpse being brought back to Winterfell and laid to rest in the crypt? I remember both Bran and Rickon have the exact same dream (which Bran referred to as a crow dream) regarding talking to Ned in the crypts. I'm wondering if there's any clues from these dreams pertaining to a dragon?

[DomDayne]

Finally, even if a few people glimpsed it, they might easily have dismissed it as a product of imagination before even registering that it was a dragon. Think about it, dragons are considered nonexistent at the time (and the North is a particularly unlikely place for one anyway) and people tend to see what they expect to see...therefore if anyone saw a dragon (or more like a weird, huge flying thing), (s)he would likley do everything (subconsciously, if the sighting was brief and obscure enough) to convince him/herself that it wasn't a dragon.

In this light, it's fairly plausible that Bran wouldn't go around telling everyone about the dragon, even if he recognised it looked like one. It was gone so fast and Summer's vision was so clouded that he (with his human mind) likely wasn't even sure it was real. I don't know how many of you would give a second thought to a possible illusion, when your home is being destroyed in the most horrible manner. I'm fairly sure I wouldn't.

Yet, for us it makes sense to trust Summer's senses, especially since we have the advantage of knowing that dragons do exist.

Hmm, interesting, But I would have said Bran, being a lover of the stories and the ledgends of knights and whatnot, would have (not literally) jumped at the excitment of seeing a dragon fly out from his home. Not to mention he is an 8 year old boy, and most wouldn't be able to hold something like that in... in regards to Bran not being comfortable talking wabout his Dreams, I think was more to do with him thinking that he was odd. Now that he knows that they are real, and that Jojen has them too he is far more comfortable talking with people about them... I think this is shown well in this chapter, not only talking about Winterfell with the others, but sdtaying under for 3 days (I think)

EDIT: On top of these reasons, I just don't think Martin would have the World go from having no Dragons to face the Others (or whatever they do) to having a bunch, Dany's three, this one, If Mel is right, at least one beneath Dragonstone, maybe others too, who knows???