Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Black Wizard]

Or it could make perfect sense that Jon would ride a dragon since he is able to do that (this assumes Rhaegar is his father) and a powerful skinchanger would skinchange the third dragon.

I can't argue with that, but I still believe that Jon is more likely to skinchange a dragon. The third head is open to debate with there being suggestions that it could be Tyrion (fascinated by dragons), baby Aegon is still alive or Bran because he's a good skinchanger.

[Jon Targaryen]

I can't argue with that, but I still believe that Jon is more likely to skinchange a dragon.

Honestly, I was just using your point (Jon's Valyrian blood making dragon "use" of some kind easier) to suit my own argument. I think it's possible and perhaps even likely that Jon will be leading the ground forces and not ride a dragon at all except maybe in hit and run skirmishes. So my choice for dragon riders in a typical pitched battle would be Dany, Tyrion and Bran (through skinchanging). All have abilities pertaining to or connections with dragons and all have physical limitations that would be tend to place them as dragon riders instead of typical combat participants.

[DomDayne]

I don't have the books on me as I have them lent to a friend but could the dragon's awakening have anything to do with Ned's courpse being brought back to Winterfell and laid to rest in the crypt? I remember both Bran and Rickon have the exact same dream (which Bran referred to as a crow dream) regarding talking to Ned in the crypts. I'm wondering if there's any clues from these dreams pertaining to a dragon?

I don't recall any mentions of a dragon in this dream... i think it was more just to help Bran understand that his dreams were real. Either way, at the time that Summer sees the 'winged snake' I don't think Ned's bones had arrived at Winterfell...

[Black Wizard]

Honestly, I was just using your point (Jon's Valyrian blood making dragon "use" of some kind easier) to suit my own argument. I think it's possible and perhaps even likely that Jon will be leading the ground forces and not ride a dragon at all except maybe in hit and run skirmishes. So my choice for dragon riders in a typical pitched battle would be Dany, Tyrion and Bran (through skinchanging). All have abilities pertaining to or connections with dragons and all have physical limitations that would be tend to place them as dragon riders instead of typical combat participants.

Have you read Garth Nix's Old Kingdom series by any chance? They're fantasty books for teenagers but I still think they're quite good. The main character in the second book is born into a sisterhood who have some power but she hasn't unlocked hers yet, and then it turns out she has a different ability that is just as important. That's what I'm getting at with the Jon & Bran skinchanging thing.

It's also a bit like those annoying people at school who were good at everything but there's always one subject you're better than them at.

[nanother]

Hmm, interesting, But I would have said Bran, being a lover of the stories and the ledgends of knights and whatnot, would have (not literally) jumped at the excitment of seeing a dragon fly out from his home. Not to mention he is an 8 year old boy, and most wouldn't be able to hold something like that in... in regards to Bran not being comfortable talking wabout his Dreams, I think was more to do with him thinking that he was odd. Now that he knows that they are real, and that Jojen has them too he is far more comfortable talking with people about them... I think this is shown well in this chapter, not only talking about Winterfell with the others, but sdtaying under for 3 days (I think)

Under less extreme circumstances I would agree...but there was some serious shit going on at the time, and the dragon(?) was gone in an instant, basically.

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he

saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was

gone.

By the way, there were still other people around at that time, so it's a valid question why they didn't see anything (though can be explained away, sorta);

from a few paragraphs later:

Howls shuddered

through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams.

They were gone by sunrise, though.

Bran woke some time after sunrise (after doing a bit of exploring with Shaggy and having a meal).

Which is remarkable in itself, if his human self found the sight so exciting, he likely would have woken right when he saw it. Instead, he stayed in Summer for quite a long time afterward and was still reluctant to return to reality. Also, he seems to have difficulty separating his own identity from Summer's, when warging:

He was wolf. He was hunter and stalker and slayer, and he

belonged with his brothers and sisters in the deep woods, running free beneath a starry sky. He sat on his

haunches, raised his head, and howled. I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go.

It certainly seems to me that Summer's concerns and priorities kind of override his own...he actually finds the smell of blood and burning flesh attractive, not something his human mind would agree with.

So to sum it up

1. seeing it through Summer's eye, and his identity being a bit mixed up with Summer's, he might not have made the connection (winged snake=dragon) within the very short time the thing was seen.

2. after that he spent at least half a day more exploring in Summer's skin

3. stories and legends were probably the last thing on his mind at the time, in Summer's head or in his own.

...as far as I'm concerned, the above could provide a sufficient explanation as to why the dragon would go "unnoticed" by him

EDIT: On top of these reasons, I just don't think Martin would have the World go from having no Dragons to face the Others (or whatever they do) to having a bunch, Dany's three, this one, If Mel is right, at least one beneath Dragonstone, maybe others too, who knows???

Well, there might be some more in Asshai :P

Seriously though, I'd agree that there are starting to be too many (potential) dragons. The idea that was brought up earlier in the thread is that Mel is wrong and the dragon was beneath Winterfell instead of Dragonstone...so that would cut back the number to four.

Edit: no mention of dragons in that dream...just that Ned was sad and it had to do with Jon...but I think Bran doesn't remember most of it, just that it was very disturbing (he might remember later, like he forgot about Jaime and then it came back to him)

[AvengingAryaFan]

I'm another who thinks GRRM uses words carefully, and rarely sets up red herrings. And I agree that the dragon description seems too precise to be merely figurative. However, upon rereading the relevant sections (ACOK PB pps 956-7), I find even more problems with LordNedsHead's theory. The dragon sighting, the earth shaking, and the Osha's "noise to wake a dragon" comment simply don't cooperate temporally with the theories contending that Summer saw a real, present dragon.

First: as has been pointed out, Summer's sighting was in the night while "tall fires were eating up the stars", and there was a great deal of people noise. Due to this timing, there should have been witnesses. As such, the combination of Bran's silence in regard to the dragon, plus the apparent absence of any rumor about it (e.g., via the Boltons), is difficult to explain. Second: the shaking earth, which presumably corresponds to the collapse of a side of the First Keep, might be explained by a hibernating dragon rising out of the ground from under the First Keep. However, the shaking earth happened later that night, well after the dragon sighting, unless Summer's experiences were described without regard to temporal order. Third: as for Osha's comment about waking a dragon, she was speaking of the noise they made opening the door out of the crypts, which of course was in the morning after Bran had returned from his 3 day sojourn with Summer. Thus, neither the reference nor the act it refers to can have any actual bearing on waking a physical dragon. These three timing issues weaken some of the arguments set forth in support of LordNedsHead's theory.

The theory that seems to best fit (1) the precision of the dragon description, together with its very sudden disappearance, plus (2) the lack of any corroboration to that particular dragon sighting, is that Summer saw a R'hllor-type vision in the flames.

Are there, as some people suggest, rumors regarding a dragon under Winterfell? Do they conform to Mel's prophecies about waking a dragon from stone? If so, perhaps a dragon is magically kept in hibernation under the First Keep so long as there is a Stark in Winterfell ... a condition now ended. The fall of part of the First Keep might be initiating an awakening. Does somebody know where to find the descriptions of Mel's prophecy about raising a dragon from stone, so the prophecy can be compared to the circumstances at Winterfell? Long-term hibernation near a heat source seems reasonable, considering that eggs remain viable for centuries. Although Dany's dragons are hot to the touch, physics would seem to preclude the possibility that a hibernating (non-eating) dragon is creating the hot springs. Such a dragon would have to output energy without taking any energy in, unless Gene is awake and eating rats. But if the dragon is awake and eating for 8000 years, it should be very big indeed.

In regard to the dude4daenerys observation about Bran looking across the Dothraki sea and past Vaes Dothrak "to Asshai by the Shadow where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise": isn't this most likely simply referencing Dany's dragons? Wasn't she was at Asshai about then? In any event, "under the sunrise" suggests the dragons were on the surface of the earth, NOT under it.

[Jon Targaryen]

Have you read Garth Nix's Old Kingdom series by any chance? They're fantasty books for teenagers but I still think they're quite good. The main character in the second book is born into a sisterhood who have some power but she hasn't unlocked hers yet, and then it turns out she has a different ability that is just as important. That's what I'm getting at with the Jon & Bran skinchanging thing.

No, I have not read Garth Nix but he is a Guest of Honor at the World Fantasy Convention this year so I may read one of his books if I decide to go to World Fantasy and meet him. I had forgotten who the GoH was and your reference jogged my memory so thanks for that.

In regard to the dude4daenerys observation about Bran looking across the Dothraki sea and past Vaes Dothrak "to Asshai by the Shadow where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise": isn't this most likely simply referencing Dany's dragons? Wasn't she was at Asshai about then? In any event, "under the sunrise" suggests the dragons were on the surface of the earth, NOT under it.

Dany's dragon eggs came from Asshai; Dany did not visit Asshai. A theory to explain Bran's vision is that there are more dragon eggs in Asshai "stirring", waiting to be awoken with king's blood and sacrifice.

[The Last of the Giants]

When I first read this I couldn't understand what a dragon was doing there for a few confusing minutes until i just assumed it was the comet, it was only later when i read the other theories concerning Azor Azhai that I thought it was a Dragon again.

[SandorMan]

I have really been trying to come up with a better post for this thread but the only thing I can think of when I hear "dragon in Winterfell" is...AWESOME!

[DomDayne]

The theory that seems to best fit (1) the precision of the dragon description, together with its very sudden disappearance, plus (2) the lack of any corroboration to that particular dragon sighting, is that Summer saw a R'hllor-type vision in the flames.

This is my new favorite theory, at least in regards to the "Winterfell Dragon". After reading the chapter back again, and making my way through this thread there just seems like there is too much guess wok going on, assuming that the 'Waking a dragon form the Stone'; wasn't about Dragonstone, asuming that Summer wasn't being overly poetic (the snake in the sky, I don't think it was said to be flying horizontal, perhaps it could have been just one of Winterfell's towers burning brightly, or exploding in flames, and then stopping or something similar???)

The Rhy'llor-type vision seems like a plausible explanation that would explain the none sighting buy any of Bolton's men or Theon, or any mentions later in the book from any source (also I think this ties in nicely with my theory that all the Gods are the same being or two beings, cause why would a Red Worshipper Prophecy coem to something that is presumably and Old Gods patron)

Also, the Winged "Snake" doesnt' seem to fit with me... while i'm fairly sure the Dragons of 'The World' aren't so much like European Dragons, they certainly aren't like the Chinese ones... I always pictured them as having to legs and arms/wings, I would'nt have sdaid they would fly looking like a snake???

[The_BlauerDragon]

I have really been trying to come up with a better post for this thread but the only thing I can think of when I hear "dragon in Winterfell" is...AWESOME!

I don't generally quote movie characters in posts (I have a bad enough habit of doing it in real life, but...

MAXIMUM AWE-SOME!!!

[sourleaf]

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. Kind-of brings new meaning to that line the Night's Watch has about the Horn that Wakes The Sleeper, doesn't it?

Speaking of horns, would this event possibly coincide with the Kingsmoot, where Euron had the dragon horn blown? I feel like the flames wouldn't be enough in of themselves, but maybe with the help of some magic...

I can't confirm the timeline, I don't have my copies right now, but I would love if someone could let me know if this is feasible.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Speaking of horns, would this event possibly coincide with the Kingsmoot, where Euron had the dragon horn blown? I feel like the flames wouldn't be enough in of themselves, but maybe with the help of some magic...

I can't confirm the timeline, I don't have my copies right now, but I would love if someone could let me know if this is feasible.

What, the Sack of Winterfell and the Kingsmoot? No, not possible. Asha had gone back to inspect the ruins of Winterfell and look for Theon's body before returning home and finding out about the upcoming Kingsmoot.

[Mr. Natural]

WTF? I can't believe I've never noticed this before. I always just assumed that Winterfell was put to the torch by Ramsey Bolton. Reading further into the chapter I found these lines describing the state of Winterfell. "They stood in the shadow of the First Keep, or what remained of it. One whole side of the building had torn loose and fallen away. Stone and shattered gargoyles lay strewn across the yard."

While Bran was in his coma he dreams of climbing a tower with stone gargoyles looking down on him. After Winterfell is sacked there are broken gargoyles strewn about. Could there be some connection between these events? Maybe Bran had something to do with awakening the dragon.

Also, Jojen dreams of saltwater flooding into the castle. This combined with the fire and Meera saying they were loud enough to wake a dragon while hiding in the crypts leads me to believe that Bran was reborn through salt and fire. Thus, Bran = AA. :wideeyed:

[Sidonie]

God! this is a great thread worth resurrecting!

What if castles in Westeros that HAVE gargoyles mean there's a dragon or dragon's egg somewhere within? I mean, I know in OUR history castles may have had them to "protect against evil spirits" or whatever, but in Westeros only Dragonstone and Winterfell have them (or so it seems). It would be so cool if Winterfell "hatched" another dragon. And I can see why someone would want one there...in case of an attack by others or wights.

[Sidonie]

And maybe Bran will ultimately be able to "warg" into this Winterfell dragon! I'm so excited about the possibilities here! :drool:

[Yarl Snow]

This is a very interesting thread. It's weird that I have not thought about this before, but GRRM is very good at hiding information in plain sight, by misdirection.

I have to check this out..

Could the dragon be the 3-eyed crow? He required Bran to open his eye, so he would be free, then flew off beyond the wall and called Bran there. Pure speculation on my part.

[Mr. Natural]

While Bran is warged through Summer he only notes things that Summer would notice and find important. For instance, he noticed the flying snake with wings as a potential enemy but when it disapeared it was no longer important as a potential rival. We already know that Bran has trouble remembering to do things Jojen asks him to do while warged so naturally Bran wouldn't remember something so inconsequencial to a wolf or his hunting ground.

I thought I'd repost this as it seems to have been overlooked and I think explains why Bran wouldn't have mentioned the dragon sighting to Jojen and Meera.

Many people disbelief that it could of been a dragon because Bran thought it so inconsequential but as I mentioned above Bran see's things as Summer would see them. Thus, when he first notices the "winged snake" he growls as he views him as a potential rival or enemy but once it disappears it is no longer of consequence, thus forgotten.

[PestilencE]

woah, that's pretty trippy.

I'm more on the side that Summer saw an actual dragon, even though it's the less believable possibility.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I'm skeptical about this being an actual dragon, but IF it is, then perhaps the Third Eye Crow took control over it and flew it quickly high above the clouds over the Wall?

Personally, I think it was a R'hllor type vision as someone said earlier.