Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Roughspun]

Maybe Ghost will ride the Winterfell dragon?

Nonsense. Robb will.

[BigBellyBen]

That's assuming that he did actually see it. As I recall, he was dying at the time, so even if he did see it, he could easily have attributed it to hallucination, or forgotten about it.

If I remember correctly, after Bran and co. left, Luwin was alone for a while with Meera Reed. It's possible that he told her something while she was giving him a mercy blow.

[Thoheeks Bili]

Because no human saw this, does that mean it didn't happen?

My impression of warging is that you would actually see through the animals eyes, so Bran did see what Summer saw. A wolf also has better eyesight/hearing/smell than a human so maybe he DID see a dragon take off and fly away whereas the humans were somewhat blinded by the smoke?

Same with that saying ......if a tree falls in the forest.....and you didn't see it, does that mean it didn't happen? :worried:

[A Redeemed Hound]

Because no human saw this, does that mean it didn't happen?

My impression of warging is that you would actually see through the animals eyes, so Bran did see what Summer saw. A wolf also has better eyesight/hearing/smell than a human so maybe he DID see a dragon take off and fly away whereas the humans were somewhat blinded by the smoke?

Same with that saying ......if a tree falls in the forest.....and you didn't see it, does that mean it didn't happen? :worried:

Maybe Bran warged into the tree that fell in the forest with Summer and the tree will ride the dragon?

[A Redeemed Hound]

If I remember correctly, after Bran and co. left, Luwin was alone for a while with Meera Reed. It's possible that he told her something while she was giving him a mercy blow.

:rofl:

[Lordi Nietos]

I read up to page 8, but it's nearly 2.00 here (yes, that's AM and I should be sleeping) so I'll give my 2 cents now.

The most likely theory is that "the dragon" was the comet through Summers eyes. A comet hitting close enough for the fires to be seen could also be the cause of the destruction to the First Keep.

If there would've been a dragon under Winterfell it'd have been there when Brandon built it. Aegon brought dragons to Westeros, but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been dragons there previously.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

I read up to page 8, but it's nearly 2.00 here (yes, that's AM and I should be sleeping) so I'll give my 2 cents now.

The most likely theory is that "the dragon" was the comet through Summers eyes. A comet hitting close enough for the fires to be seen could also be the cause of the destruction to the First Keep.

Interesting. Do we know if the comet is seen after this? I hadn't considered the possibility that this scene could have been the moment of impact -- rather than Bran!Summer just seeing the comet hanging in the sky, which as has been explained, is somewhat inconsistent with the fleeting nature of the vision.

[Lord Godric]

Because no human saw this, does that mean it didn't happen?

My impression of warging is that you would actually see through the animals eyes, so Bran did see what Summer saw.

Yeah, Bran does see what Summer sees. But Summer does not have the mind of a human to understand what he is seeing. Hence why we always have descriptions that can not be taken literal while warging.

[Nafro]

I read up to page 8, but it's nearly 2.00 here (yes, that's AM and I should be sleeping) so I'll give my 2 cents now.

The most likely theory is that "the dragon" was the comet through Summers eyes. A comet hitting close enough for the fires to be seen could also be the cause of the destruction to the First Keep.

If there would've been a dragon under Winterfell it'd have been there when Brandon built it. Aegon brought dragons to Westeros, but that doesn't mean there couldn't have been dragons there previously.

Agree 100%

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Woodbyrne,

Where did the dragon come from? Where was it hiding? Winterfell was on fire but it did not burn to the ground since it's a castle made of stone. That is even mentioned in the book. It was not destroyed at all. It was gutted. It will need a lot of work but the structure is still there. So where did the dragon break out of?

I guess no theory is impossible but you also have to go with how GRRM has been writing the books and this would not make any sense.

This.

To say nothing of the fact that the Dragons kept by the Targaryens in the Dragonpit, shriveled up and then died. Dragons don't do well when contained. A Dragon surviving chained up and hidden under Winterfell for years would directly contradict this earlier information. I suppose some guardian could have been feeding the beast explaining why it didn't starve to death but that would beg the question of why Ned didn't bring the thing out to fight when necessary. Good lord at the slightest hint of opportunity the Northern lords crowned Robb Stark king in the North. With a dragon that independence would have been easy to establish and maintain.

There is, and has been no, actual dragon under Winterfell.

With regard to the fallen Tower being toppelled by the Alleged Dragon. Is it more believable that the Dragon has sat unused and chained up for centuries beneth Winterfell or that a structure, partly made of wood, caught fire and partially collapsed due to that fire?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Because no human saw this, does that mean it didn't happen?

My impression of warging is that you would actually see through the animals eyes, so Bran did see what Summer saw. A wolf also has better eyesight/hearing/smell than a human so maybe he DID see a dragon take off and fly away whereas the humans were somewhat blinded by the smoke?

If Summer did see that, Bran doesn't know about it. Varamyr can tell how many barrels of pitch are in Castle Black when he's warging into the eagle. Arya can recognize her mother's corpse while in Nymeria--and contrary to a previous assertion, Nymeria describes it as "the white thing," so plainly the wolf didn't recognize the dead woman. Jon can recognize and repeat in detail the wildling horde while in Ghost. Bran can recognize Jon among the wildling horde while in Summer. But for some reason, Bran can't recognize or even remember a disturbing image of a flying snake breathing flame.

[Errant Bard]

Interesting. Do we know if the comet is seen after this?

After that, the comet is always talked of in the past tense. With sentences like "blazed across the sky".

[A Redeemed Hound]

The reason the Starks bent the knee to the Targaryen's was because THEY DID NOT HAVE A DRAGON TO OPPOSE THEM!!!

Instead of talking about a dragon under Winterfell whose only job apparently is to heat water, what about the army of dead Starks?

In ancient times, I think Germany but not 100% sure, kings and lords were burried with iron swords and not steel because it was believed that iron could hurt demons in the afterlife. The Starks are all burried with iron swords. And since GRRM has been mixing in all sorts of historical references in his books I find that interesting.

[Drowned Princess]

I reckon a dragon below Winterfell is just taking it too far... It's just a bit too literal.

Mel's words and theories, whilst mostly accurate, cannot be taken as gospel. I always just assumed that when she talked of a dragon in Westeros sleeping in stone etc she meant that there was a member of the Targaryen bloodline who didn't know it yet. There are lots of early references of Bran dreaming that he's taking to Ned, and Ned is trying to tell him something about Jon, when roundabout the same time Jon is dreaming that he has go down to the crypts to find something but he doesn't want to. I'm not prepared to speculate on exactly what might be there, but I think there's some clue to Jon's parents down there, maybe even with Lyanna's body. If he is Rhaegar's son, then that would fit with the sleeping dragon.

Trying to find the instances of fire and kingly blood though: there's so much frickin' fire it would be hard to be specific. Although I did wonder earlier if Maester Aemon would count as having kingly blood. Just an idle thought.

Re: Army of Starkness - I can think of nothing i'd like better than for all the dead Kings in the North to arise as one, take their swords and march against the Others in furious silence.

[theLaughingTree]

I reckon a dragon below Winterfell is just taking it too far... It's just a bit too literal.

Mel's words and theories, whilst mostly accurate, cannot be taken as gospel. I always just assumed that when she talked of a dragon in Westeros sleeping in stone etc she meant that there was a member of the Targaryen bloodline who didn't know it yet. There are lots of early references of Bran dreaming that he's taking to Ned, and Ned is trying to tell him something about Jon, when roundabout the same time Jon is dreaming that he has go down to the crypts to find something but he doesn't want to. I'm not prepared to speculate on exactly what might be there, but I think there's some clue to Jon's parents down there, maybe even with Lyanna's body. If he is Rhaegar's son, then that would fit with the sleeping dragon.

Trying to find the instances of fire and kingly blood though: there's so much frickin' fire it would be hard to be specific. Although I did wonder earlier if Maester Aemon would count as having kingly blood. Just an idle thought.

Aemon definitely counts as blood of a King which is in great part why Lord Snow sends him to Oldtown with Samwell and Gilly since he fears Mel and Stannis will sacrifice Aemon for his blood of the dragon.

And I agree about Mel 's prophecies as well as Thoros and a few others (like the old lady who talks to Arya when Arya is with the Brotherhood). They are mostly accurate but not in a literal sense. There are very symbolic and metaphorical.

[tybeechris]

I don't particularly think it was a 'real dragon'. But there are other clues that can be seen as support for this theory.

1. Winterfell's hot springs. Heated by a dormant (and very old, very large) dragon?

2. The crypts extend longer than winterfell and have more levels underneath the level with the Stark Kings, about which virtually nothing is known.

3. Winterfell was supposedly built by Brandon the Builder, with the aid of giants. The same guys who supposedly built the Wall and Storms End, both of which have mystical powers - so why not something mystical about Winterfell?

Thanks, this is what I wanted to say also. They stressed Bran the Builder and magic in ASOS in the Storm's End chapters. Whether is it foreshadowing for Bran being one of the dragon riders or a real dragon is yet to be seen but there be magic there. Great thread.

[tybeechris]

While I do believe this is a very, very creative theory, I'm just not wholly convinced. I really do think that Martin would have given some kind of clue somewhere else in the book. I would think by now someone would have said - "well did you hear that Marl's lost a whole flock of sheep up there in the Wolfswood... just completely disappeared - no trace! And there was this large swath of burned ground... damnedest thing it is!" or some such thing. Even if they didn't SEE the dragon, which as another poster pointed out, the North is huge and sparsely populated, the thing would be leaving some kind of trace.

I would like to point out also that by the time the events in AFFC come about, the rumors of Dany's dragons are rampant, and yet only a few believe them. And as for the Dreadfort boys as witnesses... well, maybe they are currently searching for this dragon and keeping their mouths shut about it?

Anyway, I guess we will all find out soon enough. And if Martin or Parris happen to be reading this thread, either they are laughing hysterically or saying "damn damn DAMN!"

I like the idea of Martin and Parris reading all these threads and howling sometimes. Kind of like us reading the TVWP threads. Unfortunately, we need three books to finish this all off. I hope I live that long.

[Mike]

I reckon a dragon below Winterfell is just taking it too far... It's just a bit too literal.

Mel's words and theories, whilst mostly accurate, cannot be taken as gospel. I always just assumed that when she talked of a dragon in Westeros sleeping in stone etc she meant that there was a member of the Targaryen bloodline who didn't know it yet. There are lots of early references of Bran dreaming that he's taking to Ned, and Ned is trying to tell him something about Jon, when roundabout the same time Jon is dreaming that he has go down to the crypts to find something but he doesn't want to. I'm not prepared to speculate on exactly what might be there, but I think there's some clue to Jon's parents down there, maybe even with Lyanna's body. If he is Rhaegar's son, then that would fit with the sleeping dragon.

I think that yours is the most obvious answer. Bran has the greensight, but doesn't know how to use it. It seems plausible that the greensight manifested itself during his wolfdream, and he saw a dragon rise from the ashes of Winterfell, or rather, a Targaryen from Winterfell rise after the Starks fall. Given a similar dream and a similar end in The Mystery Knight, I figure this is the best theory until GRRM sets it straight.

[Thefalconemperor]

I like that. Dragons hatching everywhere, Others destryoing everything in their way south, the land falls into magical barbarism and the song of ice and fire is nothing but the screams and cries of the ones dying by those.

Come on Sweetmartin, you can do it.

[Jojen]

Okay. Suppose that the Dragon in question isn't just any old Dragon, but rather THE Dragon.

What if it's the Dragon Reborn?