Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Mumatil]

The one thing that gets me is the gargoyles on the first keep.

Only bran when he could climb could get up there and in one chapter he remarks how they fell near where he fell. It seems a little overkill for the Bolton men to try climbing and knocking down those gargoyles.

[gramblor]

I suggest this because in the D&E stories, if someone sees a "dragon hatching" somewhere (e.g. a dragon hatching at Whitewalls), it ends up being in literal reference to a Targaryen, even if the vision showed a literal dragon. So if Bran or whoever sees a massive "ice dragon" hatching or coming from Winterfell, in the D&E way of interpreting things, it refers to a Targaryen and that would in all likelihood be Jon.

The only difference I see is that in case of the D&E stories the visions occur in a dream where as this is a sighting that happens while Bran has slipped his skin into Summer

[Duir]

" The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars."

I do not believe for a second that the wolf is referring to strange formation of smoke as "great snake with wings" , and as several people have pointed out why would you write about "smoke and ash" and oh some more smoke and ash but formed as a dragon.

-- And he specifically writes "in the skye", not -against- the skye as it would have been if it was wooden pieces from the tower or silouettes of gargoyles.

I am not saying that it actually was a dragon, it could've been a vision or something like that. But for people to reject it as att being smoke and not important at all?

And as it happens in the last chapter of the book it feels like something of a cliffhanger from Martin's side?

But one question, have we discussed what the tall fires behind the cliffs are? Is something burning? Is it purely a metaphor, or a vision? Is it northern lights?

Very good thread indeed.

[aashish]

A ridiculously awesome thought in my head, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" to feed The Dragon. :drool:

[Silmarien]

I always thought it was a loose end, and a hint that maaaaaybe, Bran is AA. (Reborn (check - thought dead), amidst salt and smoke (check - plenty of smoke, salt from tears of the slain, the sweat of the burned, or Winterfell's salt stores), under a Red Star (check - red comet was still visible in the sky at this point (pretty sure)).

[ARYa_Nym]

The only difference I see is that in case of the D&E stories the visions occur in a dream where as this is a sighting that happens while Bran has slipped his skin into Summer

& Summer seemed hostile.

I don't think an actual dragon flew off though because obviously someone would have seen it.

[a free shadow]

But one question, have we discussed what the tall fires behind the cliffs are? Is something burning? Is it purely a metaphor, or a vision? Is it northern lights?

It might be that Summer witnessed exactly the moment the comet crashed somewhere. And that was what she has mistaken for a "great winged snake".

Dragon would be way more awesome though. Jorah tells Dany that there were dragons living for thousands of years (legends, I understand, but so far a lot of legends turned out to be true).

[Duir]

The comet might acutally have something to do with it. Highly interesting in any case.

And for some reason I have always assumed that Dany's dragons are not the only dragons that we are going to meet in the series. They pop up everywhere in the books either by conversation between characters, old castles, old dragon skulls and legend upon legend and the targaryens whom actually ruled the realm with the help of dragons.

So I do think we will see more of them, although in different ways.

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

I just finished a reread of Clash today and this line really pops and is noticeable when you are looking for it. I will keep an eye out in the beginnish of Storm whether or not they mention the comet has fallen.

The ice dragon theory is awesome. When Euron has the one guy on Pyke blow his horn from Valyria, wouldn't the ice dragon have heard and went to the call?

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

This is from the third paragraph in the first Bran chapter in Storm of Swords, its when he is warging in Summer, looking across some expanse in the woods, right before he goes and wrestles some pack wolves for a deer:

"The sun hung above the tall pines huge and red, and below him the trees and hills went on and on as far as he could see or smell. A kite was circling far above, dark against the pink sky."

What could that line I bolded possibly be referring to? I think a direwolf would know what a bird (eagle, hawk, raven, what kind of birds do they mention in the North often?). And the use of the world kite I find awkward. In Bran wolf warging chapters Summer usually knows what something is because it is natural or else he has some sort of term for it. I know its not alot, but its something.

Also, in the first chapters in Storm they reintroduce alot of points about charchters that seem kind of obvious or pointless. Maybe this is meant as a hint to take what we read seriously in the last chapter of the last book.

[Jem]

This is from the third paragraph in the first Bran chapter in Storm of Swords, its when he is warging in Summer, looking across some expanse in the woods, right before he goes and wrestles some pack wolves for a deer:

"The sun hung above the tall pines huge and red, and below him the trees and hills went on and on as far as he could see or smell. A kite was circling far above, dark against the pink sky."

What could that line I bolded possibly be referring to? I think a direwolf would know what a bird (eagle, hawk, raven, what kind of birds do they mention in the North often?). And the use of the world kite I find awkward. In Bran wolf warging chapters Summer usually knows what something is because it is natural or else he has some sort of term for it. I know its not alot, but its something.

Also, in the first chapters in Storm they reintroduce alot of points about charchters that seem kind of obvious or pointless. Maybe this is meant as a hint to take what we read seriously in the last chapter of the last book.

A kite is a type of bird.

[Hempen Dan the Ropemaker]

A kite is a type of bird.

hahah damn! thought i just discovered the biggest secret in the book

[seeyouintee]

Strange. When I read this part I figured Bran was seeing the comet through smoke and a muddled wolf perception which would serve as foreshadowing for the actual coming of (Dany's) dragons.

[Number Wun Wun]

I don't think he can't be, I think he isn't. Big difference there. And Jon Connington, I'm sure, thinks he's 100% real. But that isn't really evidence of anything, given that Connington didn't meet this child until he was 4-5 years old. The problem with the switch is that it only really works in hindsight. Namely, Varys had no way to know that Gregor would make Aegon unrecognizable. Aegon was very young but still old enough to have certain distinct features (i.e. we know he had the Targ look). If Varys had made a switch and Gregor hadn't destroyed Aegon's face, the jig would've been up. The idea of a switch being plausible "because Aegon was unrecognizable" works because Aegon was unrecognizable. Meaning, Varys can retcon a baby switch and people can go, "Well yeah, it's possible because no one could've recognized Aegon's face." But at the time, it wasn't a guarantee that Aegon would be unidentifiable pulp.

I agree that the plot only works in hindsight, but the switch could still make sense. Varys had no way to know that Gregor would dash the baby's head against the wall, but if he caught wind of some kind of intrigue, he may have advised Elia to allow her son to be kept hidden to minimize losses should something happen. If the supposed fake Aegon had only been smothered and then identified, no doubt a search would have been conducted for the real deal, but Aegon would still have been hidden for a time with the possibility of escaping the rebellion. But the happenstance of fake Aegon's disfigurement would not only have allowed for real Aegon to be kept hidden for a time but also rendered his existence unknown and the plot in question possible.

Not that I believe this is actually the case. I have more questions about Varys and Illyrio. If Aegon really is Aegon, why did they keep him unaware of Dany and Viserys (and vice versa), unless they just wanted to keep multiple options open. And I don't believe Martin would introduce a seemingly weak character in the fifth book and have him take over the role of Aegon the Conqueror reborn.

If he is Aegon Targaryen, I think he will still be a cloth dragon. Dany is the real deal, and in the end I think this Aegon, pretender or not, is likely to be the kind of dragon that Viserys was--impatient, rash, deluded--and will be consumed rather than hardened by the fire.

[Number Wun Wun]

Disregard previous post--this is what comes of having too many tabs open. :)

[Pellaeon]

Maybe there must always be a Stark in Winterfell because the dragon is bound to the heirs of Bran the Builder (if the dragon hibernate under Winterfell and the Castle build above him), maybe the dragon obey only a Lord Stark on some magic way

but why the dragon don't start to kill all enemies of House Stark or search one of them, because if there was really a dragon he must relatet to the Starks in some way

And if he hipernate, it would be a reason for no magic after the dead of the last dragon in westeros

But there are doubt:

why Luwin didn't see or hear the dragon?

and summer hear the noise of humans when he saw the dragon so they must see him too

[Serie]

It might not be a literal "ice dragon." If it's a vision in the D&E sense, I put forth that the "ice dragon" out of Winterfell is probably ... Jon.

ok so I was thinking about this.... if Bran's vision of a dragon is fashioned after D&E sense, who's the one character (besides Jon) who could be characterized as dragon-rider or dragon-related and was kind of reborn at that time?

gee.... its Tyrion :eek: :eek: :eek: .... Wasn't Tyrion at that time fighting in KL and actually was in someway "born again amidst smoke and salt (to wake dragons out of stone)"???? (assuming stone refers to winterfell)

I think I'm getting paranoid here....

[Lan the Clever]

I always thought it was the comet.

[jarl the climber]

I'm not sure, if a dragon egg did hatch during the sack of Winterfell it will probaly be shown clearly happening in the TV series. We should get an answer soon.

[Serie]

I can't see how a comet can be described as "a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame". And its the word "roar" that bothers me the most.

besides:

"He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone"

for all we know the comet was there for quite some time....

I think a dragon was born metaphorically and the dragon was Tyrion...

I'm not sure that this will be cleared up in the series. but I guess you're right, we'll only have to wait and see :)