LordNedsHead Posted April 17, 2009 Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Hehe Thanks Blauer. :thumbsup: I noticed that too but didn't really care so long as the conversation stayed interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='LordNedsHead' post='1757815' date='Apr 16 2009, 19.18']Hehe Thanks Blauer. :thumbsup: I noticed that too but didn't really care so long as the conversation stayed interesting.[/quote] No problem. I guess people are just accustomed to seeing me pop up with off the wall, outside of the box type theories and then defending them ferociously. So I can completely understand where her confusion came from. And you Ser, should take it as a great compliment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boar of Gore Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 It's smoke and flame. That's all. It looks like a living thing to a wolf, because wolves can't comprehend fire and are confused by it. I mean dragons don't just randomly appear and then disappear. Why would Dany need to go through all that rigmarole and magic to hatch dragon eggs if any idiot can wake a dragon by digging in the right place? Why would setting Winterfell on fire wake a dragon anyway? And why would there be a dragon in Westeros, one which would have had to have been there since before Winterfell was built in ages before Valyria even came into existence. Dragons were a Valyrian thing, not a Westeros thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplomb Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I wouldn't put much stock in the partially collapsed First Keep as evidence of a dragon. In the next paragraph after Summer's winged snake sighting (i.e., after the dragon or dragon looking smoke cloud had gone), we read "All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and crash that made the earth jump under his feet." That has to be the wall of the First Keep collapsing during and because of the fire. Perhaps the roof and upper wooden floors and their contents all collapsed and crashed into a wall at an angle, bringing it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor's Lady Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='the Blauer Dragon' post='1757811' date='Apr 16 2009, 22.13']I would just like to add one minor correction. This, er... isn't my thread. Thanks for the compliment anyway though. And you're right, it is a great thread. :thumbsup:[/quote] Oh, dear... :blush: I guess that's what happens when I skim threads at work. You must've been the "last post by" person when I started to respond (which, of course, took me a while....) So...ahem...LordNedsHead - Great thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor's Lady Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Aplomb' post='1757888' date='Apr 17 2009, 00.19']I wouldn't put much stock in the partially collapsed First Keep as evidence of a dragon. In the next paragraph after Summer's winged snake sighting (i.e., after the dragon or dragon looking smoke cloud had gone), we read "All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and crash that made the earth jump under his feet." That has to be the wall of the First Keep collapsing during and because of the fire. Perhaps the roof and upper wooden floors and their contents all collapsed and crashed into a wall at an angle, bringing it down.[/quote] I thought it was more than the First Keep - the First Keep wasn't the one with the gargoyles, was it? I dunno - it just seems like a lot of rocks having fallen for just a fire. I thought a good portion of the castle had been destroyed - not the outer walls, I think, but several of the buildings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplomb Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Sandor's Lady' post='1757893' date='Apr 16 2009, 23.29']I thought it was more than the First Keep - the First Keep wasn't the one with the gargoyles, was it? I dunno - it just seems like a lot of rocks having fallen for just a fire. I thought a good portion of the castle had been destroyed - not the outer walls, I think, but several of the buildings...[/quote] Yes, the First Keep is the one with the gargoyles, but the rest of the castle only suffered superficial damage. Well, the stone parts anyway, wooden floors, gates, work buildings and bridges were destroyed. You might be thinking of the Winter Town, where a lot of buildings were destroyed. Right at the end of the chapter, Bran looks back and sees: "Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here or there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all." So apart from one side of the First Keep, the castle's skyline seems to remain intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNedsHead Posted April 17, 2009 Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Still thinking about this. Ablomb makes a good point about the roof collapsing under the weight of ceiling timbers, though a dragon emerging from under the First Keep would certainly make the same loud noise. IF there was a dragon under Winterfell, it certainly makes sense for it to reside under the First Keep, the castle's oldest structure. The Dragon disappearing could certainly be the beast flying off after emerging. Summer was in the woods with a restricted view. Also a flying dragon would be moving pretty fast. Unfortunately I want to try to debunk something that was a great theory. I really doubt that a dormant dragon would power the geothrmal heat under the castle. Dany's dragons don't emit heat from their skin per se. The dragon would need to be breathing fire, and thus alert to heat the springs. Unless Bran the Builder and the Children placed the dragon there and magicked some sort of spell to use its magical relation to fire to heat the area (most likely very far-fetched) I don't think the dragon can be the source of the heat. A dragon being drawn to an already existing hot spot (a natural hot spring), especially one surrounded by a barren icy wasteland, though is to me entirely more plausible. Perhaps it was just looking for a warm place to take a nap? Here is a thought. Is anyone capable of asking Martin about this? I know he's a stickler for not revealing future information in the books, but this seems to me to be a question of description. Much as he admitted to Varys and Illyrio being the men that Arya spied upon, what Summer sees in an old chapter should be something that wouldn't spoil any future story points. He either saw a dragon or he didn't. At the very least Martin could say wether what Summer saw was a literal description or a figurative attempt to explain the smoke and flames through a wolf's eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Okay. Suppose that the Dragon in question isn't just any old Dragon, but rather [i]THE [/i]Dragon. That might change things around a bit. One good way to test this theory would be to see someone make their way into Winterfell and see if the Hot Springs are still hot. If they are not, then it [u]MUST[/u] have been a Dragon heating them. Now, the first Dance of Dragons referred to was a fight of Dragon vs. Dragon. We've all assumed that one of Dany's Dragons might turn, but where would that leave the three heads has the Dragon bit? They'd need another. Wjy not the original? All I am saying is that in this case, it appears as though the glove fits. And if the glove does fit, you must convict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samalander Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Here is an interesting thought to consider : 1. We know that the Starks can tap into the sensory abilities of their wolves, so maybe it works the other way around as well? 2. Bran is a very special fellow and his third eye is open. 3. Some people in the books can look into fire and see the future. These people are priests of the red god, but nowhere does it say non-priests can't do too. Take these three together and what you get is Summer looking into the flames, tapping into Bran's special gift, and seeing the FUTURE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aumerle Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I always thought that it was the comet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordNedsHead Posted April 17, 2009 Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Can't see it as the comet here. Forst off, is the comet even still in the night's sky by this point? And it was day when the wolf dream occured. even if the comet is still visible, it would be constant in the sky. Summer sees the winged snake disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Very interesting. So, supporting the dragon theory, we so far have 1. Bran/Summer's sighting, 2. Winterfell's heat, 3. The destruction of the first keep, 4. (maybe) The crash and roar heard during the burning, 5. Osha's 'offhand' comment, 6. (perhaps) The horn that wakes the sleeper?, 7. The prophecy of a dragon being awaken from stone. I wonder if the prophecies about royal blood of father and son also could play into it. The Starks have been kings in the North longer than any other line in Westeros. Recently, there have been a few killings of Stark fathers and Sons, where the fathers and sons have both been kings when they died. Rickard/Brandon and Eddard/Robb. It's been a long time since my last reading of the books. How close was this sighting to Robb's death? (Of course, this may not matter. Nothing in prophecy says things have to happen together immediately.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robs hand Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I hate too sound like the grade A "hole" here but if there was a dragon wouldnt Bolton and his men have seen or heard it? because an army cant get too far away from a place while it is still burning, the army would move too slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hat Thief Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='Samalander' post='1757955' date='Apr 17 2009, 01.45']Here is an interesting thought to consider : 1. We know that the Starks can tap into the sensory abilities of their wolves, so maybe it works the other way around as well? 2. Bran is a very special fellow and his third eye is open. 3. Some people in the books can look into fire and see the future. These people are priests of the red god, but nowhere does it say non-priests can't do too. Take these three together and what you get is Summer looking into the flames, tapping into Bran's special gift, and seeing the FUTURE!!![/quote] I was about to mention something to that extent, really. I believe Summer was seeing into a future, sensing Dany's conquest. Was anyone at the castle when Summer saw the dragon? As for the "Dance with Dragons," I believe that does not refer to a literal fight between dragons. I don't remember where this is found in the series, but it was mentioned that the "Dance with Dragons" was a past time of Targaryen instability and chaos . . . or something along those lines. I figured that the historical context was a foreshadowing of what was to come in the next book, so the title would be meant in a political, not a literal, way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancer Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [size=1]Hmm, a really interesting thread. We know that Melisandre said that she had seen a stone dragon in Westeros. We have already seen that Melisandre and other priests/priesteses' of the R'Hollor are 'the real deal' (for want of a better phrase), as Thoros has brought back Beric numerous amounts of times and Melisandre has killed both Renly and Cortnay Penrose. Most importantly, we know that her foresight is indeed true to some extents and has been proven to be so. Therefore, we can safely assume that we can trust in her foresights. You then have to think, where in Westeros would this 'Stone Dragon' be most likely to be buried. Dragonstone, obviously. But since Stannis has been on Dragonstone with Melisandre, you would have thought that she would have made a bigger effort to try and unearth it, had it been there. Why Winterfell, is the big question. We know that Queen Rhaenrya once flew to the wall on her dragon, so perhaps she stayed over at Winterfell. Apart from that I cannot think of any other reason why any of the Targaryen dragons would be at Winterfell. Your thoughts?[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakob Lightbringer Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='LordNedsHead' post='1757969' date='Apr 17 2009, 02.30']Can't see it as the comet here. Forst off, is the comet even still in the night's sky by this point? And it was day when the wolf dream occured. even if the comet is still visible, it would be constant in the sky. Summer sees the winged snake disappear.[/quote] I always assumed it was the comet too -- at least in the purely physical sense. In Dany's chapters, when she follows the comet to the southeast, it is described as being visible during the day. A good argument against is, in Dany's chapters, the comet has already passed away before the final chapter of the book. However, GRRM has often said that the chapters do not always follow in chronological order, so it may be possible that the chapters in the West, not including Dany, happen before the comet has passed. This could be GRRM's final farewell to the comet -- which, I like to think, appears in the last chapter of aGoT (heralding the awakening of dragons from stone in the East) and disappears in the final chapter of aCoK (as a more subtle metaphorical dragon awakens from the stones of Winterfell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldian Connel Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Interesting ideas. I guess it shows how much you can miss on your first read through. The line "Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars." makes me wonder if maybe Summer saw the Ice Dragon constellation. Just speculation of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZANNI_1276 Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 [quote name='LordNedsHead' post='1757918' date='Apr 17 2009, 01.28']Unless Bran the Builder and the Children placed the dragon there[/quote] Fantastic thread! Definetly beats discussing the same theories to death over and over. Even though it is purely speculative, perhaps even tinge crackpot but then again maybe not?!?!? This maybe a little crack pot but here is a far fetched possibilty that LordNedsHead briefly touched upon. What if an egg WAS placed beneath Winterfell by Bran the Builder and the Children in the event that the Wall was or about to be compromised by the Others. Think of it as a "last ditch" effort to save humanity/Westros in the event the Others were to mount an invasion south of the Wall, the little we know they are basically indestructible to most anything but fire and a dragon would be one of the only ways to actually defeat them. Add in the fact Bran is on his way to becoming a warg supreme, Jon manning the wall (may fuel the R + L = J theorists) or even Euron's horn - the speculation for the showdown in the North has just become even more intersting... Or not! LOL!!!!!!!!!! Either way good thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robs hand Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I think that it takes a very large stretch of the imagination to see this as anything more than poetic wording by a cripple and a monster, but hey thats just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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