Is Syrio dead?

[LordNedsHead]

Listening to some of the arguments about what occured after Arya left, perhaps we should call Syrio a Water Plodder or a Water Shuffler instead of a Water Dancer! ;P

[israfel070]

The difference between Will and Syrio is that one is an untrained, terrified boy and the other is a master of asymmetrical hand-to-hand combat.

Syrio is alive.

LOL. It couldn't have been said more perfectly!

I think a lot of the "Syrio's dead" gang had their opinion colored by Arya's anguish. Although she's my favorite character, this reaction is colored by her nine-year-old's assumption that a whitecloak is by default one of the deadliest knights on the continent. She has heard all the tales that Sansa and Bran have about the KG's skill, and understands nothing about political appointees.

[Stalker]

I think a lot of the "Syrio's dead" gang had their opinion colored by Arya's anguish.

That, or him being in a castle full of troops intent on killing him.

[Hodor's Codpiece]

Okay well I think Ned is still alive too. Sure we saw someone beheaded, but at that distance Arya couldn't definitely tell whether it was him or not. Since George did not show Ned's death through his own eyes, there is a possibility that it was a lookalike and Ned is in hiding, biding his time until he can reveal himself.

[dancer]

Okay well I think Ned is still alive too. Sure we saw someone beheaded, but at that distance Arya couldn't definitely tell whether it was him or not. Since George did not show Ned's death through his own eyes, there is a possibility that it was a lookalike and Ned is in hiding, biding his time until he can reveal himself.

Yeah very clever :rolleyes:

[iheartseverus]

Yeah very clever :rolleyes:

LOL, and wearisome, as well! By my reckoning, this makes 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,001 times someone has used this exact same silly analogy to ridicule other members' opinions.

:rolleyes:

[Hodor's Codpiece]

LOL, and wearisome, as well! By my reckoning, this makes 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,001 times someone has used this exact same silly analogy to ridicule other members' opinions.

:rolleyes:

In my opinion its just as silly to require Martin to explicitly spell out every character's death. Syrio was a great character and he had a great death. Don't see why that isn't enough.

Also, what purpose would it serve for him to come back into the story? Do people want him to save Arya and return her to Winterfell? Maybe resurrect Robb and help fight the Others?

[iheartseverus]

Listening to some of the arguments about what occured after Arya left, perhaps we should call Syrio a Water Plodder or a Water Shuffler instead of a Water Dancer! ;P

HAHA, very good, very clever! :lol:

[dancer]

In my opinion its just as silly to require Martin to explicitly spell out every character's death. Syrio was a great character and he had a great death. Don't see why that isn't enough.

But that is wrong, simply. He didn't have a great death, as we simply don't know whether he has died. Of course Martin doesn't have to spell out every death, but why would he leave Syrio in such an ambiguous situation if he meant for him to die. If he wanted Syrio to die, he would have written in concrete proof somwhere in the series. He doesn't do stuff on whim, he plans out the books to the nth degree and leaves virtually nothing to chance.

I won't accept that Syrio is dead for a certainty.

[wakiki]

By my reckoning, this makes 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,001 times someone has used this exact same silly analogy to ridicule other members' opinions.

:rolleyes:

LOL, I'm very glad you took the time to put a comma every three digits, else I would have been confused as to whether it was 3 and a half koojillion or merely 3 and a half hoodillion.

[iheartseverus]

LOL, I'm very glad you took the time to put a comma every three digits, else I would have been confused as to whether it was 3 and a half koojillion or merely 3 and a half hoodillion.

IF you combine those two and then add several thousand bajillions to the mix, you'll get close to the actual number.

:lol:

(think it was easy for me to count all those Ned's-not-dead snarks one by one? Heh!)

[cybroleach]

But that is wrong, simply. He didn't have a great death, as we simply don't know whether he has died. Of course Martin doesn't have to spell out every death, but why would he leave Syrio in such an ambiguous situation if he meant for him to die. If he wanted Syrio to die, he would have written in concrete proof somwhere in the series. He doesn't do stuff on whim, he plans out the books to the nth degree and leaves virtually nothing to chance.

I won't accept that Syrio is dead for a certainty.

GRRM - yes, and the growth of the story from there was very exciting....he sees his writing style as being more like a gardener...planted a seed and watered it and let it grow, as opposed to writers who are like archtects, who plan everything out before they write the first word.

GRRM: Tolkien made the wrong choice when he brought Gandalf back. Screw Gandalf. He had a great death and the characters should have had to go on without him.

Nothing like knowing what your talkin about to prove a point :rolleyes:

[AvengingAryaFan]

(Never are we told that Syrio defeated Trant or that he is loose.)

Never are we told that Trant defeated Syrio or that he is dead.

It's clearly an unresolved and unresolvable issue, by obvious design, unless GRRM address it in the future. I'm not sure why people are coming down so hard and so absolutely on either side, but it's amusing to watch.

I've been astonished by the absolute certainty of the Syrio-is-dead proponents, in view of the abundant evidence consistent with Syrio surviving, at the least, or defeating (not killing) Trant at best. Rather than concluding their reasoning is poor, I have to presume that the Syrio-is-dead proponents are overstating for dramatic effect, in the manner that iheartseverus seems to be tweaking their camp by baldly stating "Syrio is alive." By design, as you said, nothing is certain.

Still, the relevant canon hints (Trant report that Forel allowed Arya to escape not mentioning death; the lightly armored outdueling the heavily armored when there's room to maneuver; Syrio described and demonstrated to be a blazing fast master of light armor fighting; Trant mediocre at best and heavily encumbered; versus: Trant is better protected and thus able to pursue Syrio with little risk), and relevant literary issues (GRRM rarely wastes words on "red herrings" - seemingly significant circumstances that turn out to mean nothing; which is similar to saying he follows "Chechov's Gun Law" as described above; Syrio is a well-developed character whose death, like Ned's, would be more shocking if graphically described; Martin won't give a straight answer even to Ran that Syrio is dead; and the Hound appeared definitely dead too) all favor, without requiring, that Syrio is alive.

Thus, the confidence of the Syrio-is-dead proponents is entirely unwarranted. GRRM may have decided that Trant killed Syrio, but that would make the deafening silence about the fight's outcome into a glaring red herring. Possible, but very unsatisfying. At least I'm relieved to see more sensible people defending the possibility (I'd say probability) that Syrio is alive.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Nothing like knowing what your talkin about to prove a point :rolleyes:

Where did you get that great penguin clip?

[quoting GRRM from SSM: Tolkien made the wrong choice when he brought Gandalf back. Screw Gandalf. He had a great death and the characters should have had to go on without him.]

Many LOTR good guys placed great hope in Gandalf, and GRRM has killed off analogously important characters like Ned and Robb that carried the hopes of many. Even Rowling killed off Dumbledore so the victory belonged to Harry and friends.

Neither Syrio nor Sandor is comparable to Gandalf or Dumbledore. Who in ASOIAF hoped that Forel would help save them? Only Arya cares, and she seems completely resigned to his being dead. What good guys in ASOIAF hope the Hound will save them from the bad guys?

Neither Syrio nor the Hound surviving apparent death is remotely comparable to resurrecting one of the great hopes. We care about Syrio and the Hound because they're great characters, not because the good-guy hopes ride on their shoulders.

It depends on whether GRRM needs Syrio in the future, but he's certainly left the hooks in place such that Syrio's reappearance would be less surprise to most of us than was the Hound's. GRRM has resurrected so many already ... Dondarrion, the Hound, Catelyn, Gregor, Bran and Rickon, with suspicions about Asharra and baby Aegon ... which is either an argument why Syrio should be dead (no more schmaltz!), or why he should be alive (why stop now?). Anyway, his many harsh events, such as the brutal Red Wedding, Ned's beheading, and Oberyn snatching death from the jaws of victory, can counterbalance a fair amount of schmaltz.

[LordNedsHead]

Gandalf was a deus ex machina. He wasn't even human, but an angel. Comparing Syrio coming back to Gandalf returning is ludicrous. Skilled as he may be, Syrio is just a guy. He may make a dashing return at some point (In Braavos to temper Arya's growing dark side I hope), but the guy could certainly end up with a knife in his gut without too much trouble.

In Syrio Martin created a fabulous character. We are barely getting to know him when he is removed from the script. Theories aside, wether he is dead or alive, the character had so many secrets we didn't know about him it would be a shame to never discover any more of them.

[mormont]

Sure, Arya ran away as he squared off against the armored, white-cloaked Ser Meryn, and she seemed to fear for his life... but since that time, several characters have mentioned how useless Meryn is at fighting. Cersei specifically arranged for him to be the KG to represent Margaery at trial, so that through his ineptitude, Margaery's guilt would be guaranteed in a trial by combat. Jaime and Loras show contempt for his skills as well.

Trant is never singled out for criticism by either Jaime or Loras (or anyone else for that matter), and Cersei did not, in fact, arrange for him to represent Margaery. I think you might have confused Trant with Blount somewhat here...

Does anyone realize how slow and cumbersome full plate makes a person?

I wonder if you realise that this is about the most widespread canard about medieval fighting there is?

I've never fought in full plate myself, only in a coat-of-plates that weighed about as much as my daughter. I can tell you it did not slow me down or encumber me to any noticeable degree. I've fought against people wearing full plate and it doesn't slow them down that I've noticed either. I am also aware of contemporary accounts of knights in full suits of plate being able to climb ladders or ropes, run, jump, mount horses, etc.

Yes, the armour weighs a lot - though not as much as people think, and not really much more than decent mail. But the weight is distributed and offset, particularly in a suit specifically made for the wearer (as we can assume Trant's armour was). Dodging someone wearing full armour is not significantly easier than dodging someone in a shirt and breeches.

Visibility is hampered by the helm, of course. But that's Trant's only real handicap, and it's one any knight will have trained to adapt to for years.

I could argue the situation and logical evidence of the scene all day, but for me the most compelling argument for Syrio's life is in Martin's writing style. It would be very bad writing to leave a scene like this unresolved for such a long time.

Indeed. Which makes me wonder why you think it is still unresolved?

I mean, if Syrio did die, it's resolved. If he's still alive, we've heard nothing of it since AGOT was published. If Syrio's alive, don't you think GRRM should have given out some sort of clear hint, or better yet returned to the issue?

Chekhov's Gun (a popular rule of writing that I am sure GRRM is aware of and strives to follow) states that if an author places a loaded gun hanging on the wall of a room in act 1, that gun must go off at some later point in the plot.

However, what we're dealing with here is an argument as to whether there even was a gun on the wall at all. To deploy this argument is begging the whole question.

Of all the many so called crackpot theories I have this one is tied with one other for the one I'm most certain will bear fruit by the end of the series.

Conversely, I see it as just about the weakest.

The difference between Will and Syrio is that one is an untrained, terrified boy and the other is a master of asymmetrical hand-to-hand combat.

Nitpick: Will is not 'untrained'. He's not really a 'boy', either.

And by the way, for anybody with some knowledge of fencing Syrio's actions against Ser Meryn Trant show very well that he has the control of the fight and he stay defensive only because he wants to buy as much time as possible for Arya.

I have some knowledge of fencing, and I don't think Syrio's actions show this at all. I think they show that he was desperate and hard pressed.

I've been astonished by the absolute certainty of the Syrio-is-dead proponents, in view of the abundant evidence consistent with Syrio surviving, at the least, or defeating (not killing) Trant at best.

Again, this is begging the question, because all the 'abundant evidence' you cite can only really be interpreted as evidence if you accept the conclusion it's supposed to lead to. If you don't, it is not really 'evidence' at all but an ex post facto selection of unrelated bits and pieces constructed to support the theory. (Similarly, the 'deafening silence' you refer to is only a silence if you expect to hear something.)

[robs hand]

I firmly believe that Syrio is dead, i think that the contraversy comes from the fact that GRRM doesnt slap us in the face with information, and he leaves it up to us to realize these things

[snookyrump]

After re-reading the chapter twice, I come to the conclusion that Syrio sacrificed himself for Arya's escape.

GRRM wants the reader to "see with his/her eyes" as well as Arya. Syrio was going to stay put and let the Lannister garrison come to him and away from the escaping girl.

He was fighting for time, not for his life.

[The WaterDancer Knight]

I have some knowledge of fencing, and I don't think Syrio's actions show this at all. I think they show that he was desperate and hard pressed.

Syrio is fighting an armoured knight with only a wooden stick for weapon. Of course he is desperate. He knows he has no chance to win this fight. And he is fighting to give as much time for Arya to escape. Of course he is hard pressed. But he still control the fight and will do it as long as he can dodge Ser Meryn's blows.

[Guest Other-in-law]

But he still control the fight and will do it as long as he can dodge Ser Meryn's blows.

Indeed. therefore he had already lost before Arya even turned and fled. He was not able tp dodge the fourth strike from Meryn, he sacrificed his own weapon to it.

Of course now we're supposed to believe that he still had control of the fight when he had no weapon or armour, and was somehow in control while scrambling around for a sword on the floor, rather than leaving himself wide open to a death-blow.

It's also worth noting that the heav armour vs light armour case fails utterly. None of the other circumstances were as effectively naked as Syrio was...he had nothing.

Bronn: steel half-helm with nasal, ringmail shirt, ringmail coif, leather boots with steel shinguards, steel-studded gloves.

Oberyn:greaves, vambraces, gorget, spaulders, steel codpiece, byrnie, scale armour, round steel shield, visorless helm.

Fat Belwas: steel buckler, studded leather vest.

Syrio Forel: leather vest.

Of those, Fat Belwas is by far the most lightly armoured, but he has a steel sword (as does Bronn) and his opponent has no helmet. There is really no comparison at all between their respective disadvantages. They all have some sort of steel protection they could use to block a cut, Syrio had a wooden sticken until it was cut in half.