Is Syrio dead?

[Hodor's Codpiece]

Why are you being so ridiculous? No one said FM have infinite superpowers.

What are they notable for? Committing serious crimes without getting caught. That's their thing, that's the reason for all their tricks and skills -- get them into places normal people can't go, make difficult, untraceable kills, and get out undetected and unsuspected.

You think Jaqen was a Faceless Man who was so stupid and unskilled in Faceless Man tricks that he got caught committing a crime and was being held against his will first in the Black Cellars and then with Yoren? When Faceless Men are people whose whole training and skill set is to avoid exactly something like that from happening?

Maybe I'm crazy, but it makes more sense to me that the Faceless Man was right where he wanted to be, which is what Faceless Men do. Can't tell you why he wanted to be there, because Martin hasn't revealed it yet. And whatever reason Jaqen the Faceless Man had to be there, "Syrio" the Faceless Man would also have that reason, if they are the same person.

Why couldn't a highly trained criminal get caught? It happens all the time. Do you believe that no Faceless Men ever get caught? Seems like a strange position. Even the greatest thief or assassin could just get unlucky. So yeah I do think your a little crazy for assuming the that is no way Jaqen could have gotten caught against his will.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Why are you being so ridiculous? No one said FM have infinite superpowers.

Well, you seem to be saying it's impossible to capture and hold one, and I see no evidence at all that such is the case.

What are they notable for? Committing serious crimes without getting caught. That's their thing, that's the reason for all their tricks and skills -- get them into places normal people can't go, make difficult, untraceable kills, and get out undetected and unsuspected.

Eh, it's hardly clear that they never get caught. However, since they are a death cult after all, they probably wouldn't automatically decline jobs that would result in certain death. Jaqen gives a very clear reason why he didn't want to die in that fire; he had other promises to keep, unfinished business. That would not always be the case.

You think Jaqen was a Faceless Man who was so stupid and unskilled in Faceless Man tricks that he got caught committing a crime and was being held against his will first in the Black Cellars and then with Yoren?

No, I don't think that being caught one time makes someone stupid. There are unpredictable complications and hopeless odds sometimes. I believe FM are not demi-gods, and they can sometimes lose.

When Faceless Men are people whose whole training and skill set is to avoid exactly something like that from happening?

Yeah, and knights whole training and skill set is to avoid being defeated in combat. Clearly training and skill set provide a 100% guarantee of preventing what you are trying to avoid. :lol:

We already have more evidence of non-omnipotence of FM (beside the near burning to death): False-Pate stands a very good chance of being found out by Alleras, because of the inadequacy of his impersonation. Pate despised his "pig-boy" nickname, False-Pate happily describes himself with it. So much for the unstoppable skill set.

[snookyrump]

This is a great thread, even with some of the back and forth snarking.

My feelings tend toward that Syrio's character has served his purpose.

IIRC, Arya was ready to accompany Trant and the red cloaks from the hall, but Syrio intercedes. At this point, the dancing master uses his eyes to see the situation as it is: the Keep is crawling with Lannisters, he will not escape, but he CAN detain the girl's captors long enough for her to escape provided she gets the hell out immediately.

After that, it's up to Arya. And thanks in part to Syrio's training, she makes it out.

Syrio provides a HUGE service is his training, saves Arya's life by buying her time to escape, dies a hero, and lives on in spirit. I'm not saying for sure he's dead, but Syrio has already done a GREAT service to ASoIaF already, probably no need for a curtain call.

[Aplomb]

I never said it was impossible that Jaquen was held against his will, I was just pointing out that it seems unlikely for any Faceless Man to be in that position. There's two possibilities: the Faceless Man wants to be right where he is, or he does not. I'm saying, since the whole point of being a Faceless Man is to do crimes and get away, the possibility that the Faceless Man is there intentionally is much more likely, to my mind, than the failure scenario, although sure the failure scenario is also possible.

All this arose because people asserted it very unlikely Syrio would want to be in Jaqen's place, as more "proof" there is no way Syrio could be Jaqen. I'm just pointing out there is a valid possibility (to my mind, a likely possibility) that the Faceless Man pretending to be Jaqen wanted to be in Jaqen's place, whether or not that man was also Syrio.

And for those who asked, I have no idea why a Faceless Man would want to be in that position because Martin hasn't revealed it yet (if in fact the Faceless Man was there intentionally). Use some imagination though, there are plenty of plausible reasons. He needed some information from Rorge and that's the only way to get close enough to get it; he wanted to stay as close as possible to Rorge and Biter to protect Arya (or Ned? or Gendry?) from them; Jaqen was a prior paid hit, and he needed to have "Jaqen" hauled away from King's Landing to cover the fact that he had been killed; etc. etc. etc. You can't expect me to tell you why Jaqen wanted to be there when Martin hasn't told us, but it isn't hard to come up with your own reasons, unless you are hell bent to argue that it is simply impossible that Jaqen was there intentionally.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Use some imagination though, there are plenty of plausible reasons. He needed some information from Rorge and that's the only way to get close enough to get it; he wanted to stay as close as possible to Rorge and Biter to protect Arya (or Ned? or Gendry?) from them; Jaqen was a prior paid hit, and he needed to have "Jaqen" hauled away from King's Landing to cover the fact that he had been killed; etc. etc. etc.

Are those plausible reasons for wanting to be part of the party going to the Wall? Sure, fine. Are they plausible reasons to go to the Wall helplessly in manacles instead of walking around freely?

No.

Protect Arya from Rorge? Do it just as well without the shackles. Or better, he could stop her from even getting close. Needed to remove the Jaqen persona from KL? Just volunteer for the Wall, no shackles needed. Or, for that matter, not care about anyone being upset about Jaqen's mysterious disappearance, as Tyrek's abductors didn't. None of those wouldn't work or even work better without the chains.

You can't expect me to tell you why Jaqen wanted to be there when Martin hasn't told us, but it isn't hard to come up with your own reasons, unless you are hell bent to argue that it is simply impossible that Jaqen was there intentionally.

You can take that approach with anything, though. Even justifying that Ned Stark is still alive. How can I know how he survived when Martin hasn't told us yet? but it isn't hard to come up with your own reasons, unless you are hell bent to argue that it is simply impossible that Ned lives (Go ahead and ding your count up, Sev).

[iheartseverus]

(Go ahead and ding your count up, Sev).

A girl obeys. 3,497,682,403,622,817,559,343,288,002

[Aplomb]

Are those plausible reasons for wanting to be part of the party going to the Wall? Sure, fine. Are they plausible reasons to go to the Wall helplessly in manacles instead of walking around freely?

No.

Protect Arya from Rorge? Do it just as well without the shackles. Or better, he could stop her from even getting close. Needed to remove the Jaqen persona from KL? Just volunteer for the Wall, no shackles needed. Or, for that matter, not care about anyone being upset about Jaqen's mysterious disappearance, as Tyrek's abductors didn't. None of those wouldn't work or even work better without the chains.

You can take that approach with anything, though. Even justifying that Ned Stark is still alive. How can I know how he survived when Martin hasn't told us yet? but it isn't hard to come up with your own reasons, unless you are hell bent to argue that it is simply impossible that Ned lives (Go ahead and ding your count up, Sev).

Well of course you ignore the one where Rorge has unique information, and the Faceless Man has no other way of getting close and gaining his trust. Rorge didn't buddy up to the non-chained on that trip.

He's better poised to protect Arya or anyone else from Rorge and Biter by being chained up with them. Otherwise, Yoren could send him off to forage ahead, or sleep here instead of there, or whatever. This way he knows for certain he is always there.

He would need to go through this if Jaqen was his hit target but already under arrest. Do the hit, take his place, get seen being led out of KL so there's no questions asked and some important person thinks Jaqen is still alive.

All of these require chained up Jaqen. I'm sure people could come up with many better ones. And GRRM may have come up with the best reason of all!

I won't address your Ned comment because it is beneath both of us.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Well of course you ignore the one where Rorge has unique information, and the Faceless Man has no other way of getting close and gaining his trust. Rorge didn't buddy up to the non-chained on that trip.

That was an oversight, I was trying to be complete.

Rorge can't get close to anyone who doesn't want to. Anyone else could walk up to him. The person who is unchained has more freedom than the chained one.

Otherwise, Yoren could send him off to forage ahead, or sleep here instead of there, or whatever. This way he knows for certain he is always there.

OK. And why couldn't he just grab Arya and run away the very first night, guaranteeing she's no where near Rorge at all? Why would his life be revolving around Arya anyway? And why would he be leaving Arya in Harrenhal where Rorge and Biter are loose if he cared about that? It doesn't hold water.

He would need to go through this if Jaqen was his hit target but already under arrest. Do the hit, take his place, get seen being led out of KL so there's no questions asked and some important person thinks Jaqen is still alive.

All of these require chained up Jaqen.

Nope, especially not that last one. He'd look even more alive to that important person if he's walking on his own two feet than being pulled in a cart. Jaqen walking freely to the Wall works just as well. Better, because he has less risk of burning stupidly in a barn due to his own dumb decision.

I won't address your Ned comment because it is beneath both of us.

Nice try, but no it isn't. The point isn't the preponderance of evidence, it's the weakness of the argument. You literally can use it to claim Ned lives. I just did.

[Aplomb]

Nope, especially not that last one. He'd look even more alive to that important person if he's walking on his own two feet than being pulled in a cart. Jaqen walking freely to the Wall works just as well. Better, because he has less risk of burning stupidly in a barn due to his own dumb decision.

Did you miss the part where Jaqen is already under arrest? It's not up to Jaqen or the Faceless Man who replaced him whether or not he gets the chains. The chains are going on the criminal, and the Faceless Man has no choice but go along with it if that's the only way to show a live Jaqen leaving KL.

[Shemy]

I can't believe this is still going on.

Let's assume that Jaqen is Syrio, and that Syrio is a FM.

Lets ignore the hilarity of that, and think logically.

Why would a faceless man be a well known Water Dancer? Why would he master that? What has that got to do with being a FM? What was his purpose at Kings Landing aside from teaching a girl how to water dance? Didn't Ned send for a water dancer, why would a FM take the job?

I mean those are just basic questions raised if Syrio is indeed a FM.

If Jaqen is Syrio, why doesn't he reveal himself to Arya, ever? Why did he choose to be a dangerous criminal over one who was free? How on gods name would Jaqen know that Ned gave an order for all prisoners to be sent to the wall? Imagine Ned DIDN'T send, he would be stuck there, that doesn't seem logical at all. How did he know Arya would end up being sent to the wall too?

These are just off the top of my head.

It's just hopeful thinking. The debates people are using to prove Syrio is alive and is Jaqen are a bit naive. I can certainly understand the want to have Syrio alive, and just because Martin did not write down 100% in words that Syrio died does not mean he really didn't. I mean the odds were against him. he had a 1% chance of surviving. No weapon. No armor. Refusing to run. Against a KG clad in steel with a steel weapon.

The way it ends with Syrio is a perfect ending. He served his purpose, was a great character, and made a grand exit. You should be content with that. I mean look at the ending Ned got.

[LordNedsHead]

Just for the record. I am in the camp that believes Syrio is alive, but not in the camp that thinks hes a FM. Personally I think he'll show up sometime later (hopefully in ADWD). I think he managed to get ahold of a steel sword, did something to incapacitate Trant, but not permanently injure him. And then just left. Arya was able to get across the yard without any trouble. Someone of Syrio's skills could probably do the same. And if he did run into trouble, he could clearly dispatch most common guardsmen in a manner of seconds if he held steel in his hand.

If he did in fact escape, and he wasn't a Faceless Man, then where's the most logical place he would go? I'm thinking Braavos makes the most sense.

[AvengingAryaFan]

While that is understandable to a point, those other cases are very different. Either the misdirection is corrected in very short order (Arya's axe in the head, Bran and Rickon's deaths) or if they are longstanding they are near universally treated as unresolved mysteries (Benjen).

I just had to reply to this, as it reminded me so much of the Irish joke:

I don't have a drinking problem ... I only drink when I'm alone, or with other people.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Since I don't suscribe to the theory that Faceless Men are supermen, and think he was chained in black cells then in that cart entirely against his will and as such nearly died, I don't have to ask myself this, but since you think otherwise, pray tell me why he chose to be chained rather than to be free? (and don't say it's to stay with the Night's Watch band, since he obviously could take anyone's face, or enrol as himself)

Good question. Consider the odd limitations on the willingness of FM to kill people: balancing lives saved (for Arya's "3 deaths"); and killing a proven thief (Pate). We don't know the rules, but we get the idea that there ARE rules. Because the men in the black cells are guilty of heinous crimes, it seems likely that Jaqen could kill them without question; whereas, he might have to entrap one of the others like he did Pate, which is a lot of work he might not have had time for.

If Jaqen decided to select which of the three men from the black cells he would kill and replace, and did it openly, that would explain the fear exhibited by the brutal and vicious Biter.

There is a technical problem: Jaqen needs to be able to get a chained black cell captive out of his chains, and himself into them ... preferably only to appearances. Well, though he isn't a superman, is it so unlikely that Jaqen could have accomplished what Houdini could manage while underwater in a locked box? And if he is in fact readily able to get out of being chained, then appearing to be chained is a perfect disguise.

If "Syrio" is Jaqen, then his presence with Yoren is explained by his interest in Arya, rather than his (otherwise surprising) interest in Arya being explained by his presence with Yoren. He would have decided to impersonate a black cell occupant AFTER Yoren picked up Arya. It would also explain his description of himself as her only friend at Harrenhal (upon her threat to name HIM), and his giving the token for the House of Black and White to her.

It would also explain the rather astonishing fact that Jaqen chose to stay with Gregor's men in Harrenhal.

This is a bit like the Tower of Joy problem: what could warrant three critical Kingsguard being present at the Tower of Joy, when there seemed to be so many other places that their vows required them to be? Similarly, FM are valuable and rare people; why is Jaqen hanging around Harrenhal? If Jaqen=Syrio, that is explained ... again, his interest in Arya causes, rather than is caused by, he presence in Harrenhal.

The case isn't bad, but further corroboration might come from some hint of an irregularity in regard to the black cell occupants just around the time Yoren found Arya. For that matter, who ordered Yoren to take Arya, and who found her? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that even the nearly omniscient Varys didn't know where Arya was. If Syrio is Jaqen, he could have arranged for Yoren to find and collect Arya.

I haven't pursued the Syrio=Jaqen theory before, but it explains a lot of things that otherwise just don't quite make sense, including:

An FM being "in" the black cells: not

An FM being in chains: only apparently

Biter and Rorge afraid of Jaqen

An FM being on his way to the wall: no, he was shadowing Arya

A freed FM proceeding to Harrenhal: to protect Arya

An FM taking such interest in Arya: he sees her diligence and skill at KL. But before that, why would such a valuable assassin take a position as a "dancing master" for Arya? Certainly Eddard Stark didn't demonstrate the foresight necessary to engage such a high-value teacher for Arya. I suppose Jaqen might have needed to be in KL for other reasons, and the cover of being a dancing master might have been as good as any. I expect GRRM will provide an explanation, eventually, if Jaqen=Syrio.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I just had to reply to this, as it reminded me so much of the Irish joke:

I don't have a drinking problem ... I only drink when I'm alone, or with other people.

Reading comprehension? My post was pretty clear. ASoIaF's mysteries are either short duration (Arya's axe) or longer duration, but with additional reminders that they really are mysteries. Syrio's fate fits neither category.

Aplomb,

Did you miss the part where Jaqen is already under arrest? It's not up to Jaqen or the Faceless Man who replaced him whether or not he gets the chains. The chains are going on the criminal, and the Faceless Man has no choice but go along with it if that's the only way to show a live Jaqen leaving KL.

Yes, I missed that aspect as it didn't seem relevant. And in fact, the sauce just keeps getting weaker with every clarification. Now real Jaqen is a genuinely condemned criminal....who someone important wants dead. But they can't just let him go to the Wall, where he'll effectively be dead to the world (apparently it's not an inheritance motive), so they have him killed outright. But they now need an impersonator to cover up the murder of some condemned prisoner??? Why? Why should anyone care if he was killed, that it's worth the exorbitant expense of hiring a FM, when the justice system was going to kill him anyway? And let's remember, this was Ned's order that got him out of jail in the first place. Why couldn't this important and obscenely wealthy person use their influence to have the Queen send men to drag him back to the headsman's block (as she sent men to fetch Gendry)? And again, why would anyone care if he died? When you need to stack so many so many improbabilities to keep a theory on life support you might want to reconsider it.

Now just to be sporting, let's construct a scenario where Syrio actually survives:

(Sobbing, Arya spins and runs)

Syrio: ah, finally she's gone. (Does five back flips in a row just as meryn sword comes crashing down where his head was a split second before)

Meryn: (flabbergasted) Wha...?!

Syrio: Nyur, nyur! (thumbs nose, then ducks around corner)

Varys: Quick, man, in here! (grinds open passage to tunnels, and leads Syrio within). I'm afraid you're going to have to wait a few weeks for the Black Cells to break Lord Eddard, so we can persuade the Queen to send him to the Wall. Oh, wait, what am I thinking? I'm actually replacing with yet another Faceless Man, so we don't need to do that. Still, it will look better if we drag it out a while. So just stay here and mind the rats. There will be gruel for the little tongueless children you see running about later this evening. I'm sure they won't object to sharing. (departs)

(weeks later, at the Gate of the Gods)

Cutjack: What in Seven Hells are we waiting around here for?

Urzen: Yoren said we'd leave when he got back.

Rorge: Bugger that!

(A fat undergaoler arrives, with a nondescript man)

Varys: Hey, everyone look over there! (points at the city walls)

Dobber: What? What are we looking for?

Koss: Is it that pigeon? Sure is fat. (continues to stare mesmerized, while clanking sounds and rattle of chains is heard from cart)

Cutjack: Naw, I figure he means that section of wall. Real nice ashlar masonry, that is. Probably from King Maegor's time. Don't see crafstmanship like that nowadays. (sound of a loud thud, and a groan of pain)

A Goldcloak, guarding them: Pshaw! You should see the bit just east of the King's Gate, along the river wall. Puts this to shame, it does.

Varys: Ok, you can stop looking now.

Rorge: Hey, wait a minute...howcome this pansy sitting next to me has different clothes on than he did a minute ago?

Jaqen H'ghar: A man tries to look his best when going on a trip.

Another Goldcloak: And what happened to that friend of yours, Rugen?

Varys: Um...he had to go to the privy or something...yeah, that'll do.

Koss: And what's the big lumpy thing in that man-sized sack you've got? I don't remember you dragging that along before.

Varys: Pigeons. I hunt pigeons and sell 'em to a pot shop down in Flea Bottom.

Now, considering GRRM's response to questions about Syrio's fate was And he said to "draw your own conclusions" based on the fact that his sword was broken, etc,...do you think he's expecting people's conclusions to lead them to those sorts of completely unrevealed shenanigans? If there's more to be revealed about part of the story, he usually answers "keep reading", instead.

It would also explain the rather astonishing fact that Jaqen chose to stay with Gregor's men in Harrenhal.

Aside from the fact that Jaqen never stayed with gregor's men at all, there's nothing astonishing if you remember the reason Jaqen gave Arya for offering to kill three men for her: There was a debt to the red god which needed paying.

[Shemy]

If Jaqen decided to select which of the three men from the black cells he would kill and replace, and did it openly, that would explain the fear exhibited by the brutal and vicious Biter.

Why exactly would he do this instead of signing up to the wall freely?

There is a technical problem: Jaqen needs to be able to get a chained black cell captive out of his chains, and himself into them ... preferably only to appearances. Well, though he isn't a superman, is it so unlikely that Jaqen could have accomplished what Houdini could manage while underwater in a locked box? And if he is in fact readily able to get out of being chained, then being chained is a perfect disguise.

So Jaqen has now sneaked into the dungeons, killed a man, hid his bodyunslipped his chains, slipped into them?

If "Syrio" is Jaqen, then his presence with Yoren is explained by his interest in Arya, rather than his (otherwise surprising) interest in Arya being explained by his presence with Yoren. He would have decided to impersonate a black cell occupant AFTER Yoren picked up Arya. It would also explain his description of himself as her only friend at Harrenhal (upon her threat to name HIM), and his giving the token for the House of Black and White to her.

So he did it after, with knowledge that Arya is going to the wall. Why wouldn't he join freely? It makes no sense to go in chains.

Face it. Either way, the theories that Jaqen is Syrio just do not add up.

Put it down to this:

Syrio would have no clue that Arya was going to the wall. Putting himself voluntarily in prison to count upon the prisoners being taken to the wall would need Syrio to know that the dungeon prisoners were all getting taken to the wall. Arya would not have even went to the wall if Yoren did not notice her at the execution, so even if he found this information out it has no merit to Arya whatsoever.

Alternatively, your other debate implies that once he found this information out, he snuck into prison. Still with no knowledge that Yoren was taking prisoners from the wall, killed a man, hid his body, and replaced himself in the chains. Nevermind open/close the doors.

Disregarding a staggering amount of logic here, even if he did know that information, would it not be easier to enlist himself to the wall as a free man?

It would also explain his description of himself as her only friend at Harrenhal (upon her threat to name HIM), and his giving the token for the House of Black and White to her.

I think that has more to do with the part that Arya risked her life to save Jaqen, whereas almost anybody else in Harrenhal would have left him for dead.

If Jaqen=Syrio, that is explained ... again, his interest in Arya causes, rather than is caused by, he presence in Harrenhal.

If Jaqen = Syrio, and Syrio = Faceless Man, can you explain to me what hes doing teaching a girl water dancing for months at kings landing? Why on earth or westeros would he be doing that? How did a faceless man become a master water dancer, and why is he even teaching? Why would a faceless man with no reason to be at kings landing be there?

Sorry there's just too many gaps and holes for any of that to make proper logical sense.

[AvengingAryaFan]

1. Why exactly would he do this instead of signing up to the wall freely?

So Jaqen has now sneaked into the dungeons, killed a man, hid his bodyunslipped his chains, slipped into them?

1. So he did it after, with knowledge that Arya is going to the wall. Why wouldn't he join freely? It makes no sense to go in chains.

Face it. Either way, the theories that Jaqen is Syrio just do not add up.

Put it down to this:

2. Syrio would have no clue that Arya was going to the wall. Putting himself voluntarily in prison to count upon the prisoners being taken to the wall would need Syrio to know that the dungeon prisoners were all getting taken to the wall. Arya would not have even went to the wall if Yoren did not notice her at the execution, so even if he found this information out it has no merit to Arya whatsoever.

2. Alternatively, your other debate implies that once he found this information out, he snuck into prison. Still with no knowledge that Yoren was taking prisoners from the wall, killed a man, hid his body, and replaced himself in the chains. Nevermind open/close the doors.

1. Disregarding a staggering amount of logic here, even if he did know that information, would it not be easier to enlist himself to the wall as a free man?

3. I think that has more to do with the part that Arya risked her life to save Jaqen, whereas almost anybody else in Harrenhal would have left him for dead.

4. If Jaqen = Syrio, and Syrio = Faceless Man, can you explain to me what hes doing teaching a girl water dancing for months at kings landing? Why on earth or westeros would he be doing that? How did a faceless man become a master water dancer, and why is he even teaching? Why would a faceless man with no reason to be at kings landing be there?

Sorry there's just too many gaps and holes for any of that to make proper logical sense.

Items (1) all rely on your incorrect, indeed implausible, assumption that Jaqen wanted to go to the wall. The much more likely reason for Jaqen to be with Yoren is to accompany Arya. There's nothing with Yoren he wants, nothing with the Wall he wants, and nothing at Harrenhal he wants ... at least obviously ... unless it's Arya.

Your items (2) are addressed by my conjecture that Jaqen joined Yoren (taking a black cell prisoner's place), only because Arya was going with Yoren. If his goal is to stay near Arya, then what does it matter where Yoren is going? Syrio risked battling five guardsmen and Trant to protect Arya, demonstrating a strong interest in her. Why? I don't know, but his ... loyalty? ... was spectacularly demonstrated. A dancing master doesn't owe his pupil his life. If Jaqen is Syrio, that same interest would motivate him to continue to protect Arya.

Item 3 is a perfectly plausible explanation. But if Jaqen was never in fact effectively restrained, then it was merely a test of Arya.

Item 4 bears repeating: "Why would a faceless man with no reason to be at kings landing be there?" He wouldn't. But the fact that we don't know why Jaqen wanted to be in KL doesn't mean that he had no reason. His presence can be explained by his bad luck ... he got caught ... or by a need to be there, for reasons unknown to us. IF the latter, then he could probably use a cover position, much like the Pate position he's taken in Oldtown.

You state that the theories about Jaqen and Syrio don't add up. Not perfectly, I admit: he must be a bit of a Houdini, and he must have developed an interest in Arya. But in the absence of the Syrio=Jaqen theory, a lot of other facts "don't add up." So take your pick. I personally find the less obvious explanation to be at least more interesting, and not really any less plausible in terms of explaining disparate facts. It's the "Road Less Traveled" syndrome, I suppose; or perhaps the number of times Martin has fooled or surprised us thus far - about Jon, about Sandor, etc., etc.

[Shemy]

Items (1) all rely an your incorrect, indeed implausible, assumption that Jaqen wanted to go to the wall. The much more likely reason for Jaqen to be with Yoren is to accompany Arya. There's nothing with Yoren he wants, nothing with the Wall he wants, and nothing at Harrenhal he wants ... at least obviously ... unless it's Arya.

They were all venturing for the wall. Arya included. He went in chains with the destination set as the wall. Seems to me venturing to the wall in chains or venturing to the wall without chains that anybody would pick the second. If he wanted to " protect " Arya, then he would have, again, done so, not in chains.

Jaqen is bound to Harrenhal until Arya gives three names. Then he goes. Why would he go after three names if his intent was to protect Arya? Then send her on to Bravos? She had to kill a guard and the help of her friends, and was abducted by the Brotherhood without banners and Sandor clegane. This does not look like protecting to me.

Your items (2) are addressed by my conjecture that Jaqen joined Yoren (taking a black cell prisoner's place), only because Arya was going with Yoren.

So how did Syrio/Jaqen manage to find this piece of information out? Remember that you are looking through it through what you know. You are applying your own knowledge to other characters.

Even if he did, again, he could have willingly said he was volunteering for the wall. You are not bound to the wall unless you swear an oath, and again the option to go willingly and free over in chains as a prisoner when trying to protect someone seems more beneficial.

If his goal is to stay near Arya, then what does it matter where Yoren is going? Syrio risked battling five guardsmen and Trant to protect Arya, demonstrating a strong interest in her. Why? I don't know, but his ... loyalty? ... was spectacularly demonstrated. A dancing master doesn't owe his pupil his life. If Jaqen is Syrio, that same interest would motivate him to continue to protect Arya.

How does he protect Arya in chains? Again, if he was that intent on protecting Arya, he would have willingly pledged to go to the wall, the latter option being going to the wall anyway to serve wrapped in chains. You're telling me he chose option two over one? That has no logic to it whatsoever.

What protecting did he ever give Arya anyway? None. No protecting whatsoever.

Item 4 bears repeating: "Why would a faceless man with no reason to be at kings landing be there?" He wouldn't. But the fact that we don't know why Jaqen wanted to be in KL doesn't mean that he had no reason. His presence can be explained by his bad luck ... he got caught ... or by a need to be there, for reasons unknown to us. IF the latter, then he could probably use a cover position, much like the Pate position he's taken in Oldtown.

Syrio was there to teach Arya water dancing. Syrio was hired by Ned. Syrio is a water dancer master. With a reputation. Not a faceless man. But since we're approaching this from your angle, I'm sorry but we need a more plausible answer than " we don't know, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a reason!"

The point I'm trying to make here is a faceless man mastered in the arts of water dancing hired by ned to teach a girl with no real reason to be at kings landing save for that reason alone isn't looking in favour at all for Syrio being a faceless man.

You state that the theories about Jaqen and Syrio don't add up. Not perfectly, I admit: he must be a bit of a Houdini, and he must have developed an interest in Arya. But in the absence of the Syrio=Jaqen theory, a lot of other facts "don't add up." So take your pick. I personally find the less obvious explanation to be at least more interesting, and not really any less plausible in terms of explaining disparate facts. It's the "Road Less Traveled" syndrome, I suppose; or perhaps the number of times Martin has fooled or surprised us thus far - about Jon, about Sandor, etc., etc.

They don't add up because they are too far fetched. The best logical theories springing about these boards have some merit to them because the information is laid out in front of us that is actually takent from the book, and we have to fill in the little gaps. Lame Gravedigger = The Hound, R+L=J, a lot of solid information backing these up.

Your theories are pure speculation with no solid evidence from the books backing it up. and your imagination is on overtime.

Lets summarise your theory:

For Syrio to incapacitate/escape Trant with no armor no weapon, Syrios really being a faceless man, who we have no theories to back that up other than he is from Bravos, to find out that Arya is going to the wall despite Yoren/Arya being the only ones who know that, to sneak into a dungeon, kill a prisoner and take his place rather than admit freely to the wall, but look out and protect Arya despite being chained up and not really protecting her at all once her 3 deaths are up.

I mean really, as much as I'd like Syrio to be alive, there is no proof whatsoever on any of those claims, and its just pure imagination at work to make Syrio alive.

Martin is not the type of writer to give closure on every occassion, some gaps he'll leave for the reader to figure out. On the other accounts of people dying, and no closure, we found out within the same book or some information points in the next book. IE Bran, Rickon, The Hound however was left for dead, he begged mercy but didn't get it, but we do get information on that. The ones that are not fulled closed are still unsolved, but they are still mentioned. Like when (was it Garlin?) Some Lannister goes missing when Cersei/Joffrey get attacked by the commoners. Benjen stark.

But we've had no mention of Syrio since the first book, and we are now arriving on 5th. And despite Syrio being a pretty badass character, he's not that important to make such a grand entrance in the 5-7th book.

The way it was written with Syrios death was written based on the whole thing Arya/Syrio had going on. " Look with your eyes. " That could not have been used if we actually read Syrio dying, now would it? I mean not every death has closure. We didn't get to see Halfhands party die, Stonesnake and co, but we can only assume they did given the astronomical circumstances against them. Same place as pretty much Syrio.

I know Martin likes to keep us off balance, and I also know that people have a tendency to hold on to things they like. But Martin does also like to kill off characters we all like, at any given time. If Ned Stark can die, being the hand of the king, after taking on Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswhell 7v3, in the way he did, what makes you believe Syrio can't when hes armorless weaponless against a member of the KG armored for battle?

[Guest Other-in-law]

We didn't get to see Halfhands party die, Stonesnake and co, but we can only assume they did given the astronomical circumstances against them. Same place as pretty much Syrio.

Shemy, first I have to say that you've responded to much of the garbled nonsense being posted here with more thoroughness and patience than I could manage. Good posts.

As to the fate of the other members of Jon and Q'horin's party, we did see one Ebben's head, and some of the others are still unaccounted for, so I don't think it's really the best analogy. I prefer to compare it to Styr, the Magnar of Thenn's death in the collapsing switchback stair. Sure, it would seem impossible for anyone to survive that, but maybe he...did some incredible acrobatic move like Legolas killing that elephant in RotK, and then vanished into the night, using his extraordinary survival skills to escape detection, plotting his vengeance.

[Horza]

Allar Deem Lives!

[Shemy]

Shemy, first I have to say that you've responded to much of the garbled nonsense being posted here with more thoroughness and patience than I could manage. Good posts.

Thanks. I think that last one took it out me though (at least for tonight!) Spent about 40 minutes writing that up

As to the fate of the other members of Jon and Q'horin's party, we did see one Ebben's head, and some of the others are still unaccounted for, so I don't think it's really the best analogy. I prefer to compare it to Styr, the Magnar of Thenn's death in the collapsing switchback stair. Sure, it would seem impossible for anyone to survive that, but maybe he...did some incredible acrobatic move like Legolas killing that elephant in RotK, and then vanished into the night, using his extraordinary survival skills to escape detection, plotting his vengeance.

:D

Aye I suppose so, my brain isn't working too good it's 5am currently. Don't get me wrong it would be awesome to think Syrio was alive, but it would ruin the story a bit and the evidence in the books really don't back it up, save for imagining the impossible. Besides, to me Martin is reknown for killing off characters, I just don't see what makes Syrio so special as to stay alive with overwhelming odds. Besides the way Syrio exited was class, That part was superbly written and if he comes out alive it just seems like generic cliche fantasy. Hero puts himself against overwhelming odds but yet MIRACULOUSLY manages to escape, which is NOT Martins style.