EHK for MMA

[Analu]

Anyone who hasn't noticed that Silva is a cautious fighter simply hasn't been paying attention. It's the main reason why noone has ever been able to hit him flush since coming to the UFC. He hasn't changed his style, his opponents have gotten more reluctant to engage with him.

You know I love the Spider but sorry Horus, that was a terrible fight and Silva has no one to blame but himself, IMO. He's the one who requested Leites. Did anyone even have Thales on the map for deserving a shot? I know I didn't. What did Anderson expect him to do? Leites fought a smart, but extremely boring fight. He knew he had virtually no shot to take him out standing, and his only hope was to try to bait him into following him to the ground. Silva didn't take the bait, which was also smart of him... but also led to one of the worst main events I've seen in years.

IMO, Anderson needs to just stop fucking around and decide what he wants to do. If he wants to just run out his UFC contract and phone it in, then fine. What I hope he decides to do is to challenge himself and go after real MW contenders.

Chuck's chin is shot. Was never a huge Iceman fan back in his heyday, but still pretty sad. Nice to see my favorite PRIDE fighter seemingly back in form, though.

Not much else to say about this card. I'd be pretty pissed myself if I had bought this card with no one to share the cost. As it is, the $2 I spent seemed like $2 too much.

[Young Wolf]

Silva vs Leites -

Highlight of the fight was the crowd chanting GSP! GSP!

Snooze fest, that I think Silva should have stepped it up. It was obvious Leites was outclassed and had no answer for Silva's standup. Silva's takedown defense was holding up rather well. Hell, even the few times on the ground Silva seemed largely in control.

He had it on cruise control the whole fight really. Choosing to fuck with Leites rather than fuck him up.

YW

[Ser Barry]

Half the time I think that Leites' left leg was failing on him and he was collapsing to the ground. Every time he tried to plant he was fallling over sideways. I don't buy that it was his fault that the fight was so boring. Silva refused to trade with him. Of course it was smart fighting as there was no way he could lose if he avoided contact and picked Leites apart but it was pretty dumb in terms of finances. Dana must be desperate for Silva to up his PPV buy value and pecking away at an obviously limited opponent is not the way to go about it. Was Silva really in any danger if he planted his feet and swung? I don't think so. Leites' only successful take down was from Silva's wild kick, so avoid being stupid and use some boxing skills. Leites was actually trying to intitiate on the feet but Silva got on his bike. It was Starnesesque for minutes at a time there. Lots of creativity with his kicks now try aiming above the mid-thigh. Was there any danger at all after the third round when Leites leg prevented him from shooting in? I am pretty pissed off at Silva atm. Leites was too limited to make a fight out of it, Silva was too negative.

Tough to see Chuck go down again. All the talk of a decent defence was just talk in the end and seeing his hands 6 inches from his face from the beginning was not a good sign. Shogun showed what makes him exciting to watch, the ability to explode with serious damage and then finish the fight brutally. I saw enough to hope that Shogun is back.

Anyone taking bets on Wyman failing the drugs test? Cuckoo!

So how happy would Dana be if 4/5 of his Champions are Machida, Silva, Alves and Florian by August? That is a tough sell. No I don't think it will happen but the money rolling in would surely hit the brakes.

[GSP]

Yeah, Wiman looked pretty intense. If he was a HW he would have blown his wad on his walk in. Looks like he' emulating Clay Guida, which isn't the worst thing one could do. I thought he was finished in the second but he came out with a strong third. He impressed me and I wouldn't have faulted the judges for giving him the w.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I'm not letting it go. Even Chuck F'ing Liddell said that it wasn't his fault. At least before today people actually listened to what he had to say. He seemed kind of mystified at what people expected Silva to do.

People have always hated Silva. I can honestly say that I'm one of the few people that have been on board with Silva from day 1.

Back when he was knocking out Franklin and Leben left and right and people booed him hard and he was nothing but respectful to Franklin. Then you go on Sherdog and there were the idiots who actually were rooting for Matt Hughes to move up to MW to "humble" him. Freaking joke!

Of course everyone's common knowledge was that a true wrestler would "expose" Silva. After it didn't happen with Marquardt or Hendo, people finally started to give Silva props. But there were still the boo birds on Silva after the Lutter fight, oh and of course the elbow non-controversy started by that roiding idiot Joe Rogan. Now all of a sudden GSP is gonna kill him? I'm sorry, I like GSP, but he'll be beaten by Silva.

People cut Nate Quarry slack when Kalib Starnes was running away from him. People were all over Anderson like white on rice. Has Quarry ever put away eight straight fighters before the second round (He KO'd Fryklund before Leben). That type of streak is unreal and people actually expected him to be able to do that forever?

Not a problem. Silva has been hated since he came into the UFC, maybe it was the English, like American fighters suddenly learned Japanese when they fought in Pride. People never liked him in the first place and if I'm in Anderson's shoes, I'd hardly care if a bunch of fanboys don't like him now. It ain't important. All of a sudden the seven guys he took out since coming to the UFC is completely forgotten. He's garbage right? Not all of this is directed at the people here but I've been reading alot of completely fight-illiterate shit coming from people on other sites. Some a$$hole Sherdogger even went as far as to question whether Silva was a counterpuncher before the Cote fight. I'm sorry but if a person is too dumb to understand what he's watching then he should die and spare the rest of us his stupidity.

Fans R fickle and Anderson is pissed. Rightfully so. I don't care. No Silva isn't going to be stripped of his title (joke) and he'll move on. Don't need 'em. They weren't there for him before so what difference does it make now.

Rant over.

Not trying to be a jerk but alot of this stuff is getting out of hand.

[Analu]

Not trying to be a jerk but alot of this stuff is getting out of hand.

I've always liked Anderson and really don't know where you're getting this "People have always hated Silva" thing. If it's from Sherdog, you need to stop going to that board, dude. That place went to shit a long, long time ago.

And you haven't addressed my main criticism of him: he's the one asking to fight guys like Cote and Leites, who are good fighters, but not considered elite MW talent by any stretch of the imagination. He's the one talking about retiring, boxing RJJ, etc. My criticism of him is his general wishy-washiness with all that and how he's seemingly content to just ride out his contract.

Last nights fight was almost destined to be a horrible fight as soon as the fight was made. And it was a horrible fight.

[Ser Barry]

Firstly and for your own good please stop going to Sherdog. That forum is insanity.

Secondly Anderson is one of the top 3 PvPers in the world. How you arrange Fedor, Anderson and GSP is up to you but they are the three there right now. I don't think he is shit. I think his gameplan for this fight was dumb from a marketing point of view and I was personally disappointed that he didn't take what seemed to me like obvious oppurtunities to damage Leites. When he was opening up on Leites on the feet and then stopped to send pitter patter slaps looking for an opening before backing up I was shouting at my telly. He could have stopped Leites and I think he should have.

People cut Nate Quarry slack when Kalib Starnes was running away from him. People were all over Anderson like white on rice.

Thirdly I didn't see Leites move backwards much at all after the first round. In fact my thoughts were that he must have been told to hold the centre of the cage in between rounds as he stopped circling away from Silva and stood his ground for the most part. It was Silva, who had a clear dominance on the feet, who refused to engage time and again. Leites was not good enough to hit Silva. Silva refused to hit Leites. It was a negative performance and I think he could have done a hell of a lot better. That doesn't mean I don't think he is an awesome fighter, clearly he is, but I do think that he left himself open to criticism with that performance.

[Horus Ex Machina]

The problem with simply ignoring Sherdoggers is that they make up 75% or so of what we like to call the current "hardcore" MMA fan. And alot of them are used to watching pro wrestling, where the outcomes are pre-determined. They've never watched a real sport before and have little ability to pick apart a fight or even understand the action. I can't ignore them bc I always believe that they'll get smarter sooner or later. Call me a glutton for punishment.

Now to answer you Sir Barry, Leites wasn't moving backwards much at all. He was too busy falling on his back to do that. That goes in the same boat as boxers who constantly bend over in the middle of fights forcing you to punch them on their backs, NBA and soccer players who flop constantly, or other MMA fighters who like to turtle. But especially in combat sports it's a shit tactic bc the rules protect you and you can stall a fight that way. That was my problem with Leites, and Chuck Liddell agrees with me. He stood up out of Shogun's guard when he was on the ground, he doesn't like ground fighting and doesn't feel that he should have to stay down there just because. Difference here is that Shogun wasn't falling down every time Chuck tried to punch him, instead he covered up and moved, that's how you fight. Difference is that Shogun got right back to his feet as soon as Chuck stood up and indicated that he wanted the fight to be standing without needing the ref to intervene, that's how you maintain the flow of a match. But Chuck could see how what Leites did could frustrate a striker. Fights start standing. It's a grapplers job to get the fight to the floor not vice versa. Strikers don't have that problem. Nor should they. The fight starts standing, if Leites wanted a ground fight then he should have taken Silva there. None of this flopping crap.

Now on BJ's point, Silva didn't specifically ask for Leites. This goes back to the whole RJJ thing, as soon as DW made it clear that he wasn't gonna allow the fight while Silva had fights left on his contract, Silva went to them and requested to fight as often as possible, whoever was available at the time. Timetables not adding up as well as possible primarily bc two of the top MW contenders are going to be shelved for half a year for TUF, he basically agreed to whatever they had left to offer him. Three months ago that was Cote. Now Leites would not have gotten the shot if he hadn't "beaten" Marquardt awhile back. That's pretty much the only thing that kept this matchup from being Marquardt from being the matchup. Hendo and Bisping are on TUF, Franklin just left the division, Wandy is only just now entering it and needs at least one MW fight to legitimize the matchup, and Maia was still considered a fight away plus the timetable didn't matchup. Stylistically it would have been as bad a matchup as the Leites fight, the Lutter fight would have been similarly boring had Silva not caught him in that triangle; Silva's only real strike standing was that flying knee. Now Silva's choice was take Leite now or wait and get someone better. He chose to fight asap because he wants his contract done asap so he can take on RJJ while he is still relatively in his prime bc his relative youthfulness will be his only advantage there. So no, in that respect he did not hand-pick Leites, no fighter does, Joe Silva makes the fights and that's that. The only control a fighter has is he can take the fight or leave it and fight later. Without TUF we might have seen a Hendo rematch coming off of his win over Franklin or maybe even Bisping. Okami should have had the Cote fight but got injured and Silva was very vocal last year about wanting Okami. Say what you want about Okami's style but the man can fight and isn't afraid of Silva since he did come to fight the last time they met but was losing before the DQ/KO.

I won't blame Silva for wanting to get out of his contract. It's restrictive; and I said before on this forum that this would happen, that Silva was going to want to get it over asap seeing how Randy's trying to fight to break the contract led to more drama and loss of time than it was worth. Anderson Silva want's to make a statement that, so far, no MMA fighter can claim, to have gone toe to toe with a pro boxer and take him out at his own sport. Many of us don't think he can do it, but he obviously thinks that he can, and if he somehow is able to he will make a bigger statement than any MMA fighter has to date. It's no accident that he picked a very high-profile but clearly over-the-hill fighter to do it against. That's my take on the whole match-making deal. It was piss-poor, but the UFC knew months ago what Silva wanted, he wanted at least four fights this year and to complete his contract by next year. There was simply nothing else that the UFC could do to accomodate Silva's timeframe.

Finishing up, it is fair to say that alot of UFC fans have always hated Silva bc they did boo him after the Lutter fight as soon as he started speaking. I remember thinking that "it's not just bc of Rich Franklin anymore". He stopped him in the 2nd. Those were some crap "fans".

[Analu]

I was under the impression that Silva did specifically ask for and get Leites. And as someone pointed out in the other thread, Okami is fighting in a couple weeks at UFC 98. Why wouldn't he want to wait a little while longer to face a much better challenger who he has some unfinished business with and who was promised a title shot but never got one?

Finishing up, it is fair to say that alot of UFC fans have always hated Silva bc they did boo him after the Lutter fight as soon as he started speaking. I remember thinking that "it's not just bc of Rich Franklin anymore". He stopped him in the 2nd. Those were some crap "fans".

Gotta disagree with this. Just because a few thousand fans in the arena booed Silva after the Lutter fight, that translates into a lot of UFC fans have always hated him? C'mon, dude.

I don't fault you for sticking up for your boy, but I don't think you're looking at this clearly if you think Anderson is blameless. He doesn't deserve all of the blame, but he certainly deserves some of it. He's coming off a fight against Cote in which he himself said he was very disappointed in himself and even did some sparring after the fight to let out some of his frustration. From everything that I was hearing leading up to this fight, he wanted to make a definitive statement. He didn't. Leites obviously didn't help by trying to pull guard every 30 seconds, but Silva did have his opportunities to engage and didn't. Like Barry said, it was a negative performance.

And I guess we'll see in his next few opponents whether it was just scheduling conflicts or if he wasn't challenging himself enough. I honestly hope I'm wrong.

[Ser Barry]

I think that Leites was almost forced down the road of desperate flopping because his left leg was gone and he couldn't shoot in. Anderson refused to engage with him on the feet. What else was left to him? It looked to me like a lot of the flops were Leites' left leg giving away from under him. He fell sideways to his left more often than not. Anyway, what other options were open to him? Watch Anderson run away from his punches or fall flat on his face trying to shoot off a lame leg.

I don't buy that Anderson is hated by MMA fans at all. In fact I think he is the only fighter I know who gets universal respect and support amongst the MMA fans I speak to. Of course that is anecdotal but I haven't heard him mentioned other than in tones of awe for a long time. I think you are reacting to a situation that doesn't exist Horus.

[Stego]

I respect him, but I don't enjoy watching his fights. It's simply not enjoyable.

The Leites fight was akin to an adult sparring with a child. Simply not worth paying money for.

[benderschweiz]

Anderson Silva want's to make a statement that, so far, no MMA fighter can claim, to have gone toe to toe with a pro boxer and take him out at his own sport. Many of us don't think he can do it, but he obviously thinks that he can, and if he somehow is able to he will make a bigger statement than any MMA fighter has to date. It's no accident that he picked a very high-profile but clearly over-the-hill fighter to do it against.

I think he idolizes RJJ. His last couple fights he's fought MMA like RJJ boxes, flashy strikes with little purpose and a lot of posturing and movement. When he was throwing standing punches at Alves knee and kicking around behind one leg with the other...that was reminiscent of when RJJ used to do stuff like touch the floor and throw a punch with one continuous motion. A lot of boxing fans used to dislike RJJ for doing similar stuff. The UFC just needs to be more careful with the opponants they give Silva. Okami, Henderson, Bisping, Marquardt, and Maia will all be good fights. I think Maia has much better takedowns and BJJ than Alves from what I've seen.

[Ken Stone]

Sad to see Chuck go out on his shield. It was a good fight though. I don't know. It's not like Chuck is just getting dominated or anything. He just keeps getting caught. He still seems to have the ability to stuff takedowns and get back to his feet against elite fighters. He's just getting beat to the punch lately.

They say power is the last thing to go, but speed is the first. As a counter-puncher once you lose that hand speed you are pretty much toast. Retirement is pretty much his only option. That or he takes on gate-keeper status, which is probably just as bad.

[Horus Ex Machina]

I think he idolizes RJJ. His last couple fights he's fought MMA like RJJ boxes, flashy strikes with little purpose and a lot of posturing and movement. When he was throwing standing punches at Alves knee and kicking around behind one leg with the other...that was reminiscent of when RJJ used to do stuff like touch the floor and throw a punch with one continuous motion. A lot of boxing fans used to dislike RJJ for doing similar stuff. The UFC just needs to be more careful with the opponants they give Silva. Okami, Henderson, Bisping, Marquardt, and Maia will all be good fights. I think Maia has much better takedowns and BJJ than Alves from what I've seen.

Silva has always thrown flashy moves in his fights with the exception of the Leben fight. People didn't complain about the Ali shuffle. At one time in combat sports history people actually preferred a fighter to take his time and put on a show. I remember how people used to complain that Tyson fights ended too quickly. People were literally pissed about the Tyson vs. Spinks fight. I like a bit of flair. And it's always been there with Silva. At one point he put his hands down against Franklin and dodged punches. The difference is that when he reached for the clinch against Rich he didn't simply fall down.

I'm not buying that Leites had to flop bc of a bad knee. If your knee gives out you buckle and fall and usually this happens immediately following the kick, not when your opponent is reaching for a plum clinch. I recognized two times Silva reached for the plum, I just read a transcript of the fight that specifically made not of one of them followed by Leites flopping. Silva does his best work in the clinch especially to finish tough opponents who can't be finished easily.

If you watch the opening of the Lutter fight, it began in exactly the same manner that this one did, the difference being that Lutter was actually able to take him down, but what happened when Silva escaped in the first round? Lutter flops to his back and Silva had to motion him up. Had it not been for Lutter's ability to take Silva down in that fight repeatedly we would have seen a similar fight to this one. Nothing has changed about Silva, he's a tactical fighter and that's why I like him. He won't go winging punches recklessly to create a bad situation for himself and he won't jump into the guard of a BJJ fighter that he considers better than him.

Sure Silva has always idolized RJJ, but I don't think that he would seriously consider this thing if he didn't think that he could beat him and make a statement. He doesn't wan't to be a boxer full-time, this is a one-off thing for him. He is just a guy who enjoys all aspects of martial arts and wants to prove himself and display his abilities.

[Young Wolf]

I'm not letting it go. Even Chuck F'ing Liddell said that it wasn't his fault. At least before today people actually listened to what he had to say. He seemed kind of mystified at what people expected Silva to do.

People have always hated Silva. I can honestly say that I'm one of the few people that have been on board with Silva from day 1.

Who the fuck here hates Silva??? He's definitely in the top 3 in the sport right now, and I clearly said Silva outclassed Leites. Nobody here is doubting his skill, but Im definitely questioning his motivation to finish a damn fight.

Silva handled Leites on the ground (the few times it went there) pretty damn easily, and I personally think he could have finished the fight standing or on the ground pretty much anytime after the second. Leites was gassed, couldnt pull off a takedown to save his live, and was wanting to be KTFO.

I absolutely respect your opinion since you actually participate in some form of MMA training, but I dont think most the people posting in this thread are a bunching raving nutjobs like at Sherdog. I think they are completely valid points being raised. Silva has proven he does possess a formidable ground game himself (rear naked choke on Hendo anyone?), so why not just prove to the casual fans you can fight this BJJ expert's game and beat him?

Again, I think Silva would have won it on the ground...if he wanted to.

[Oorag]

It seemed to take a few fights for people to warm to Silva, since he was always fighting Americans on American soil, but by the time of the Cote fight he was pretty much considered God's gift to MMA. Even after last Saturday's debacle I bet people would still cheer to see him knock out a puppy.

Even though I think Silva deserves some criticism for taking the safe, boring way out of the fight, I thought the chorus of booing and shouts of "boring" and "GSP" were totally without class. Maybe if I'd spent $200 on nosebleed seats I would feel different. At least we learned that WWE crowd antics are not limited to drunken Las Vegas tourists.

Regarding Okami, I was the one to bring up the seemingly perfect timing for this match-up, but a little more investigation sheds some more light on why this match-up didn't take place. First of all, Leites and Silva both last fought on the same card in Octover 08, so they were both looking for opponents at the exact same time. Okami, on the other hand, had a fight scheduled for December 08, so he was already commited to another fight when the Leites/Silva matchup was probably being made. Also, since mid 2007, Okami has fought exclusively in dark matches, while Leites has appeared on UFC broadcasts four times. A case could be made that Leites was the more marketable and recognizable fighter to headline an event, and in "beating" Marquardt was technically higher in standing.

In other news, did anyone catch any of the dark matches? Herman did his best Brock Lesnar impression, pummeling the turtling Crow with punches and knees to the body for three solid rounds. Kang won his fight with a newbie in less than stellar fashion. After Foupa-Pokam had completely gassed, hands on his knees and everything, Kang decided to run away from him for several minutes. I swear that guy must be taking stupid pills. MacDonald got trounced by Quarry pretty fast withe a barrage of elbows. I guess I'll just have to give up on MacDonald.

[Ser Barry]

I know I am a bad person but I thought the GSP chant was quite funny. *runs from Horus*

Haven't seen any of the dark fights but seriously considering getting the DVD for them. Professor X was a barely credible Cage Rage fighter, what the hell has happened to Kang?

[Horus Ex Machina]

In other news, did anyone catch any of the dark matches? Herman did his best Brock Lesnar impression, pummeling the turtling Crow with punches and knees to the body for three solid rounds. Kang won his fight with a newbie in less than stellar fashion. After Foupa-Pokam had completely gassed, hands on his knees and everything, Kang decided to run away from him for several minutes. I swear that guy must be taking stupid pills. MacDonald got trounced by Quarry pretty fast withe a barrage of elbows. I guess I'll just have to give up on MacDonald.

I know I am a bad person but I thought the GSP chant was quite funny. *runs from Horus*

Haven't seen any of the dark fights but seriously considering getting the DVD for them. Professor X was a barely credible Cage Rage fighter, what the hell has happened to Kang?

*Chases Ser Barry, gasses* Damn!

Oh well, I usually take intermitant breaks from Sherdog to cool down, so I'm ok for now but there are people over there who could piss off a rock.

Well I guess I now know why Louiseau and Kang were on dark matches. Still should have gotten the chance to see them.

Kang seems like a guy who is just looking for answers. He fought beautifully in his last two losses... right up until the point that he got submitted in them.

...As for McDonald, well he's McDonald, you can't expect much more from him. With him it's sum you win, and Dim Sum you lose.

[GSP]

I'll agree with Horus that Silva has generally gotten a bad wrap. I mean, two fights in a row he doesn't just wrecking ball somebody and we have people right in this thread stating they never want to see a fight of his again. I always cringed at the ignorance of the American fans booing Silva all over the place and I wasn't happy to hear him being booed in Canada. But that was a horribly anti climatic main event, no way around that one. I didn't even know there was a 'greasegate II' incident, but I never noticed it with GSP until days latter when everyone was talking about it either.

Maybe Silva didn't shift it into overdrive and take many risks to finish his opponent, but I hardly think he should suddenly fall off of everybody's pound for pound best rankings. I am getting increasingly excited at the prospect of a Silva/GSP superfight (and if it actually is in Toronto, just an hour and a half down the road from me, that'd be too good to be true) but I am not suddenly rock certain GSP is going the murder Silva like many hyper critical internet warriors out there seem to be all. I think GSP will put in the time to gain the size to step up a class and not get bj penned, but I dread any of the pound for pounders going after their larger counterparts. When top level skills even out, size and strength advantages become overwhelming. I'd feel the same sort of concerns for Anderson if he tried to take on Fedor.

Still feeling bad for Chuck. I had high hopes for him and when he walked out to 'Reign in blood' I thought he was gonna pull one out. I think people here are right and Chuck's just lost that hair of a second off his reaction time that makes the difference against the elites and that as a counterfighter, he just won't be able to hang. Which is just crazy when I consider that Spike's first episode of 'Deadliest Warrior' had his hand speed timed at something like 50% faster than the average Olympic gold medal boxer or some craziness.

Turns out I have MTV after all. I just watched an episode of Bully Beatdown. Pretty corny, but I'll watch it.

[Oorag]

Which is just crazy when I consider that Spike's first episode of 'Deadliest Warrior' had his hand speed timed at something like 50% faster than the average Olympic gold medal boxer or some craziness.

I don't remember them measuring his hand-speed. All I recall is them measuring his force against a dummy and then having him wail on a side of beef to measure the damage. No one disputes that Liddell still hits hard.