US Politics VIII

[Lord O' Bones]

John Edwards had some members of his staff who were allegedly prepared to bring down his campaign if it looked like he was going win.

Wow. That's pretty cold. In their mind, was his candidacy just to shape the debate for a time?

[EHK for Darwin]

Meh...kind of disappointed by the correspondents dinner. Noone was really that funny. I consider this a serious failing of the Obama administration.

[Commodore]

There won't be any kind of legal investigation, too many Dems knew about/condoned/approved of what we were doing, and that will come out if people like Pelosi are forced to testify under oath in an investigation. The Dem leadership heard all of the same legal advice Bush did, and didn't raise objections then.

Much easier to destroy the livelihood of these lawyers by recommending disbarment for the legal advice they gave. That way no one else has to get their hands dirty, and the whole truth doesn't have to come out. And the administration can say they "held people accountable".

It's certainly a great incentive to answer the call to public service, knowing that the federal government will come after you for nothing more than giving a professional opinion.

[Elrostar]

Much easier to destroy the livelihood of these lawyers by recommending disbarment for the legal advice they gave. That way no one else has to get their hands dirty, and the whole truth doesn't have to come out. And the administration can say they "held people accountable".

It's certainly a great incentive to answer the call to public service, knowing that the federal government will come after you for nothing more than giving a professional opinion.

They did quite a bit more than 'give a professional opinion'. They crafted a legal argument for why these interrogation techniques were not torture, using an enormous amount of flimsy data. The analogy is not perfect, but it's a little bit like saying that if the president were to ask the OLC for a memo justifying the assassination of US citizens, and they complied giving arguments about when it was within the president's authority to order hit squads out to kill members of the public. If the OLC members came up with 'professional opinions' justifying that, and people were then killed based on those legal arguments, I would sure as hell think that the OLC lawyers were responsible for having made the justifications. Most assuredly the White House staff who asked for the justifications are responsible as well, and I would love to see them held accountable too.

But the idea that these lawyers were just offering an opinion, you know, hypothetically, and so, like, what's the big deal? That's just absurd. They knew that their 'guidelines' would be used to justify how the CIA treated detainees, and using arguments like "Well fortunately they're not on US soil, so that frees us up from most of the constitutional concerns we might otherwise have" are just downright scary.

[tzanth]

I'd be very happy to see those lawyers heads roll. They were fully complicit.

[Celtigo]

I loath John Yoo, his shitty legal opinions, and flimsy attempts at justifications for the use of torture, which are now almost universally dismissed as absurd. Its the continuing shame of my beloved University of California at Berkeley that they continue to employ that piece of scum. In addition every lawyer working in the White House with any shred of decency should have resigned before putting pen to paper on any memorandum authorizing torture.

At the same time I don't believe it is appropriate to criminalize offering advice on the legality of torture as long as they had <insert the specific ethical term as defined by Rules of Professional Conduct> given advice that essentially wasn't frivolous and where a plausible legal argument can be made ( a low bar to trip over), especially when those creating the policy behind rendition and those carrying out the actual torture skate off Scott free. I for the life of me can't see why the middle man is singled out.

But as far as I know DOJ has no concrete plans to prosecute OLC attorneys anyway, so this outraged might be unnecessary.

[Inigima]

Did they just give professional opinions? Or were they bending over backwards to find a justification for a policy that was illegal on its face, much like the CIA was ordered to find a connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq where none existed?

[Annelise]

Much easier to destroy the livelihood of these lawyers by recommending disbarment for the legal advice they gave. That way no one else has to get their hands dirty, and the whole truth doesn't have to come out. And the administration can say they "held people accountable".

This is true, it is the easy way out. Overall, I mean, not just with regard to Yoo and Bybee. If they don't have a criminal case against those two, then they obviously shouldn't prosecute. I differ from Commodore insomuch that I find it acceptable to report them to the state bar associations, though. Unless I've misunderstood, those entities have to investigate independantly, so presumably if they're disbarred, it would be because those associations similarly found them have acted unethically or whatnot. I don't see why they should be excused, if so.

That said, it's like prosecuting those few soldiers at Abu Gharib who were convicted.. I join them and their families asking why they were the only ones that were held accountable.

[Annelise]

I posted something about this in the healthcare thread too but this could be huge news politically as well. Tomorrow Obama will announce that Big Health Insurance, Big Pharma, and hospitals leaders have committed to him that they will cut $2 trillion in costs over the next decade. If this is so, it will make healthcare reform much more likely and it will make Obama look incredibly powerful in the short term.

Yeah, that is good news. Apparently adds to the clockwatching, too:

However, the savings depend in part on Congress passing health care reform this year.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

tzanth,

I'd be very happy to see those lawyers heads roll. They were fully complicit.

They are only fully complicit if they offered the opinions with the intent of offering legal cover for those who were torturing. If they were offering their sincere opinion of where the line between legitimate interrogation and torture was, they've broken no criminal laws. They may have commited legal malpractice which is a can of worms all to itself and the reason their cases have been turned over to their respective state bars.

The reason they are not being prosecuted is proving that intent is rather difficult.

[mcbigski]

I posted something about this in the healthcare thread too but this could be huge news politically as well. Tomorrow Obama will announce that Big Health Insurance, Big Pharma, and hospitals leaders have committed to him that they will cut $2 trillion in costs over the next decade. If this is so, it will make healthcare reform much more likely and it will make Obama look incredibly powerful in the short term. Also this will make it look like the Obama people really understood the Clinton's mistake of not including anyone i the discussion in the 90's.

Just to give you an idea of just how problematic rising healthcare costs are, even the savings referenced above would only be a 20% cut in the growth of healthcare spending.

Yes, a 20% reduction in the growth of health care spending isn't terribly significant. Kind of like the recent laughable spending cuts and belt tightening. It's like getting smothered to death by a 320 lb man instead of a four hundred pounder. I'm confident though that once the government completes the take over of health care in the US, we'll save a lot of money by getting half the coverage for only two-thirds the price.

[Ormond]

But honestly, the idea that academic study and research has no merit is so utterly ridiculous that I'm more than half-way convinced that Black Dow is an alt for someone else. These arguments are just too absurd to be taken even moderately seriously.

I don't believe he was implying that ALL academic study and research "has no merit".

I think he's only implying that academic study and research in the Humanities and most Social Sciences has no merit. :)

I don't agree with him, but he at least seems to approve of research in things like medicine and engineering.

[Annelise]

Yes, a 20% reduction in the growth of health care spending isn't terribly significant. Kind of like the recent laughable spending cuts and belt tightening. It's like getting smothered to death by a 320 lb man instead of a four hundred pounder. I'm confident though that once the government completes the take over of health care in the US, we'll save a lot of money by getting half the coverage for only two-thirds the price.

Okay Debbie Downer. :) I'm feeling the glass is half full today, so I prefer to look at it this way:

But let me not be too negative. The fact that the medical-industrial complex is trying to shape health care reform rather than block it is a tremendously good omen. It looks as if America may finally get what every other advanced country already has: a system that guarantees essential health care to all its citizens.

And serious cost control would change everything, not just for health care, but for America’s fiscal future. As Mr. Orszag has emphasized, rising health care costs are the main reason long-run budget projections look so grim. Slow the rate at which those costs rise, and the future will look far brighter.

I still won’t count my health care chickens until they’re hatched. But this is some of the best policy news I’ve heard in a long time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/opinion/11krugman.html

[TrackerNeil]

There won't be any kind of legal investigation, too many Dems knew about/condoned/approved of what we were doing, and that will come out if people like Pelosi are forced to testify under oath in an investigation. The Dem leadership heard all of the same legal advice Bush did, and didn't raise objections then.

Tell you what, Commodore; I'll agree to putting Pelosi in the dock as long as she shares an indictment with Bush. 'Cause if the Speaker of the House knew torture was going on, you'd better believe the president knew as well. That's a deal I'll take...how about you?

[Annelise]

And it looks like Crist is running for the open senate seat down in Florida. I wonder how he will fare in the primary; I am not familiar enough with FL demographics to know if a moderate has a tough row to hoe down there. I imagine his success or failure, to some extent, will be tied to the results of the stimulus.

[TrackerNeil]

In similar news, Tom Ridge will not run for Senate in Pennsylvania, which is good news for those of us who would like to keep two Democrats representing the Keystone State. Personally, I'm kinda rooting for both Toomey and Specter to lose their respective primaries.