Sandor Clegane - alive

[Le Cygne]

The significant bit is when he asked Brienne "do you understand?" after his sermon and she doesn't really get it.

He is almost telling her that he is the Novice.

Probably GRRM did not even mean to hide it from us, only from Brienne who btw has never met the Hound.

And when the Elder Brother says to Brienne, do you understand, GRRM is saying the same thing to the readers.

I'd agree if she didn't spend so much time dreaming about smooching him

so if nothing else he still lives even if its just to further her plot

Something has to come of that. Namely, I want to see a real smooch.

I don't see the foreshadowing of Sandor as Sansa's protector as excluding the possibility of a romance between them. On the contrary, the deliberate foreshadowing when Sansa twice(!) wraps herself in Sandor's cloak indicates that they will have a marital, or something like a marital, relationship in the future.

The marital foreshadowing is overwhelming (him giving her his cloak twice, her putting it on twice and keeping it in a cedar chest, her placing him in the marriage bed twice, his reaction to her marriage, etc.)

No please don't let him be Lancelled. :ack: :crying: One is enough. And no more hairshirts, bleah. Besides, Sandor Clegane as a holy septon? :stillsick: That would mean a complete personality transplant.

Seriously. No Lanceling.

Sandor has not lost his spirit any more than Stranger has. That's what Stranger biting and kicking was all about, and Sandor shoveling the dirt at the knights.

And I really like this, someone mentioned on another thread, Sansa's prayer the night of the battle, gentle the rage, this was the answer.

[Ralphius targaryen]

Also the priest has much information about clegane an his description of him rolls off the tongue. Which could note that sandor has confessed to his horrible acts but also is described as doing good as well. I don't think anyone would know of the hounds good acts unless he flat out told the person I realy think he's alive

[chrisdaw]

Martin has used and most likely created Sandor to explore the concept of knighthood, in having explored only the negative the job is only half done, Sandor will be back to finish the job.

[Ralphius targaryen]

Agreed. Great point. The feeling of redemption and atonement surrounds sandor and he has yet to come full circle with his nobility. But it is hiding in there somewhere and we've seen brief glimpses of him do good deeds. But then again, who knows , Martin would be the type of author to just abruptly cut short sandors life to show that he's beyond redemption

[AreoHota]

But in that same conversation, the church dude also says they buried him so that the crows wouldn't eat his flesh or something like that. That's a flat out lie if Sandor is still alive.

So the abbot isn't just being coy and playing with words if Sandor is alive. He's a flat out liar, which I guess doesn't provide evidence one way or the other, except that people around here seem convinced that his wordplay is somehow important because he never comes out and says "Sandor Clegane's life functions have ceased and he is beyond physical resurrection by any source magical or otherwise and here is the body to prove it."

Although it is probably more likely (as previously mentioned) that EB actually cut out part of Sandor's rotting flesh and buried it, his speech could also be taken metaphorically.

"I buried him myself. I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish. I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place."

EB could be saying that he made a grave with stones to stop people from digging up (looking for) the flesh of the Hound (Sandor). In this case he is not a big liar but merely speaking metaphorically.

Reasons why I think this kinda makes sense:

• Notice that he never actually says he buries his flesh, the 'him' mentioned above is the Hound, who can be distinguished from Sandor (and Sandor's body).
  
• Burying the Hound (or covering 'him with stones') could be seen as both a means of hiding the fact that Sandor lived on and a symbolic gesture indicating the passing on of a life.
  

• This would give another reason as to why EB put the Hound's helm on top of the grave. If EB wanted people to believe the Hound was dead this would be an improvised way of doing that.
  

Anyway, obviously a pretty far fetched idea but just another way to allow the EB the benefit of the doubt and let him remain virtuous.

[MotherMerciless]

Martin is very good at making the reader think "heeeyyy...". Take the red wedding: certain character reactions or behaviours probably made you think "oookay... this guy seems to be up to something". I was probably as tense as Cat was just from all of the little hints Martin was sprinkling on his text.

Same goes for Reek's first p.o.v: nothing told me specifically who Reek was, but after seeing so many horrible things in the book, I guessed it seconds after starting the chapter.

The grave digger made me feel the same way. I thought "oh that really could be Sandor". The whole death and rebirth ritual is perfectly represented here. He had to die, to let go to start over. And yes, digging the graves would be a very good exercise for him, to bury his hatred, his fears, his shame, his needs, his doubts, his regrets. He has a lot of digging to do.

Martin made that grave digger for a reason, this whole debate is what he wanted to create by mentioning the big man, and Stranger. If it is the last time we see him, I'm fine with it, but I am pretty sure that was him indeed. I do hope, however, that Clegane comes back. Rebirth or no rebirth, I hope he will not be able to remain blind to all the evil in Westeros, and that he will return to set some wrongs right... Starting with Ungregor.

[Booknerd2]

Too much hanging over him. Let him heal, physically and inside too. There is a hell of a lot of good too that quiet introspection can do, but nothing beats a chance at redemption, when you feel guilty and crappy, and in some way fixing or making some wrongs right. Or helping others. I think it is him and that he will leave the quiet sequestered surroundings he is in in time. Just let the right piece of info reach his ears, or someone come for him, and he bounces. The word begins with an "S."

His name is being sullied further with the Saltpans crap and the travelling Where's Waldo? Where's the Hound? running bit. People think he has the Stark girls or did, Stranger won't ride with anyone else. Hell, no one can even touch him. (Sorry, I want Stranger to ride again too. lol) His brother, after all he did to Sandor and his family is still sort of around and his defeat his crucial to their backstory, and he just so happens to be a character now that very few could beat.

But the bottom line is that he wanted to help the Starks. He wanted to enter their service, and come on, it was to help or impress his bird, or at least get in good with the folks. The idea gave him purpose. A reward, I don't think that mattered as much. He lost his chance at first when Robb and Cat died, and then Arya left him when he was injured. I am sure he is wondering what the heck happened to Arya, and the Starks could use him. Someone who was on the inside of the Lannisters, let alone his skills, strength, and stubborn loyalty.

But the number one thing is that his bird is in danger. One word, one word that Sansa is missing, feared in danger, someone has her, etc. that was the biggest regret he had. How she was treated by Joff and Cersei, even how he treated her, how she didn't go with him, and given the chance to do something NOW about it, I still think he has that soft spot for her and would jump at the chance to do it right this time. Not leave her to what he believes he did.

Honestly, if Brienne had recognized him, and told him what she knew or what she was doing and that it involved Sansa, I am 90% sure he would have thought, screw the leg, there is no time to waste, and would have joined her.

Because when you care for someone that much, all logic goes out the window. And it would have been about him too. He would have had a chance to change some things or even at least try to do the right thing. A man like that, with so much hurt and regrets, would jump just to be able to alter his regrets somewhat.

Er, at least I hope that happens. And it would be fun and ironic. In a way Sansa gets the brave warrior that comes looking for her, just it is not a knight in shining armor on a white horse. It is a gruff man, loud and with a potty mouth, on a horse that also has a bad attitude, and the armor is pretty shitty too. But he loves her, and would do anything to save her. So she gets what she wants in the end, just not like in the songs exactly.

Uh, I hope.

[MotherMerciless]

But the bottom line is that he wanted to help the Starks. He wanted to enter their service, and come on, it was to help or impress his bird, or at least get in good with the folks. The idea gave him purpose. A reward, I don't think that mattered as much. He lost his chance at first when Robb and Cat died, and then Arya left him when he was injured. I am sure he is wondering what the heck happened to Arya, and the Starks could use him. Someone who was on the inside of the Lannisters, let alone his skills, strength, and stubborn loyalty.

Totally agree, like wolves, dogs also need their pack. Poor Sandor spent his whole journey looking for a new home, a new cause, something to give meaning to his life. If it meant handing in Arya, so be it. I honestly think he'd do it out of the goodness of his heart (and the hope of having a new family), and that he only mentioned a reward because he was too scared or ashamed to show his good/ sentimental side to anyone. He had to look tough, his whole life was tough from the start.

[Booknerd2]

Honestly, if it had worked out that he entered their service, like all the other men, there would have been food and supplies. Enough to survive, and food, water, and care for Stranger too.

I think they would have taken him, and also would be grateful for Arya's return, an update on Sansa up until he left, and Lannister info.

Would they have been wary and kept an eye on him at first? Yes. But news would reach them that he left and is being looked for.

I think any offer of reward at that point he would have turned down. If only to stay in their service, prove himself, and be with the bird's peeps.

Always interesting that he claimed Robb needs him. Yeah, to help get his sister back. LOL! And to help win, which also might achieve that aim as well.

[Quiet Isle]

Totally agree, like wolves, dogs also need their pack. Poor Sandor spent his whole journey looking for a new home, a new cause, something to give meaning to his life. If it meant handing in Arya, so be it. I honestly think he'd do it out of the goodness of his heart (and the hope of having a new family), and that he only mentioned a reward because he was too scared or ashamed to show his good/ sentimental side to anyone. He had to look tough, his whole life was tough from the start.

This and the post above you. absolutely.

One thing is worth noting. There are several times I catch some mirroring with Tommen. Sandor was about the same age as Tommen when Gregor ruthlessly snuffed out both his physical beauty and his childhood dreams. The sensitivity of Tommen makes me even sadder for child Sandor.

I will note that that Brienne was very honest with Elder Brother. And I will lay you money Sandor was too. EB has a knack for "healing" ad it's not just in the physical methods, but in the psychological method as well. He knows all about Sandor. And I have a feeling he's told him why Brienne is there. He won't hold that back from Sandor. When he does reveal it, it wouldn't suprise me if he follows Brienne's trail. Hurry, I cry!

[Quiet Isle]

Agreed. Great point. The feeling of redemption and atonement surrounds sandor and he has yet to come full circle with his nobility. But it is hiding in there somewhere and we've seen brief glimpses of him do good deeds. But then again, who knows , Martin would be the type of author to just abruptly cut short sandors life to show that he's beyond redemption

Agree with all that you have said except the last sentence. GRRM is banking on us to think he will "hurt" us by ending his story. But Martin has given us too much to just leave that fractured fairy tale between he and Sansa to die in the dust.

[Booknerd2]

The Eb is a pretty cool guy. Some of his own personal story from his "old life" seems like he could understand Sandor.

Also, he comes out of this and he is not the old Hound, nor is he anybody's dog. He inherited the Clegane lands and keep. Only right that he gets it.

I think he might tell him too, or Sandor asks what Brienne was doing there. And he honestly answers him.

I don't see Sandor thinking, Oh, it is Sansa they are looking for? I will just stay here and wish them well.

[Beets]

Seriously. No Lanceling.

Sandor has not lost his spirit any more than Stranger has. That's what Stranger biting and kicking was all about, and Sandor shoveling the dirt at the knights.

And I really like this, someone mentioned on another thread, Sansa's prayer the night of the battle, gentle the rage, this was the answer.

THIS THIS THIS. Most of the people I've spoken to who adhere to this theory believe that in order for Sandor to have grown, he needs to be this peace-loving monastic hermit of serenity. THAT IS NOT SANDOR. Sandor's angry and bitter and very, very broken - even if he's alive on the QI, that doesn't mean that he wants to sell ice cream and give her brother daisychains. No. He's still gonna be angry and bitter, but the fact that he's on the QI means that he's not willing to kill people any more. 'Gentle the rage', not 'completely obliterate any facets of his personality connected even remotely to the slightest feelings of anger'. He'll still be willing to fight if that's what it comes down to, the way I see things. Anything else would be colossally OOC.

[Booknerd2]

Exactly.

Who is to say that he is even a novice? Everyone is looking for him. Maybe he is just in disguise and the brother suggested he act as a novice for awhile until his leg heals?

Now does it give him time to think, reflect, and will it help. Yeah. Did it help having a cool guy to talk to for once and pour some stuff out. Yeah.

Between Sansa, Arya, Clegane lands, defeating his brother, he has too much to do and too many to help on the outside.

I don't think he is the type to not get down and pick himself right up again. Especially even when both him and Ayra were convinced he was going to die. And then he survives. He gets a second chance at life and holes away. Don't think so. Er, again, I hope.

[MotherMerciless]

Yeah, I doubt he'd go into that way of life, for the long term at least. There is too much fight in him and too many emotions to quiet down. The brother rescued him from his wounds and is trying to rescue him from his demons while he stays there, as he should. This by no means means that he joined the order. I doubt the brother would tell him "join us or die".

Rage or no rage, he is not an idiot and knows when his body has had enough. He might even come to the conclusion that it was his out of control rage and despair that almost lead him to his death.Rage or no rage, this 'break' will help him clear his mind from the drunken stupor he was falling into, it will help him focus on what matters and set aside his fears and doubts. He will (hopefully) come back a stronger, more disciplined man.

[Sun]

Yes, we'll see Sandor again, but not the Hound. Will he fight for the faith? I suppose it depends in what way the faith gets involved in fighting. If a power dynamic is involved, then no, I think Sandor is done fighting for those attempting to maintain or gain power.