ASOIAF Biggest Scumbag

[Lint]

Going by the consequences of their actions, Littlefinger. He's the one responsible for the entire war.

But going by intentions, Gregor Clegane. Even though LF has caused more people to die than Gregor by far, LF would never do something like hold his little brother's face in a fire. So by our standard definitions of evil it's probably Gregor. But technically LF has caused way more suffering.

Personally I've never really understood the intensity of Frey hate. I mean he's not sunshine and rainbows, but a lot of people feel that he's the worst of the worst.

1. Robb Stark betrayed him first. It was entirely Stark's fault for doing that, then trusting Frey (a notoriously ambitious Lord).

2. Mutilations and stuff like that aren't exactly unheard-of in Westeros. The northmen do it to others just as much as others do it to them.

Yes, Robb did betray the Freys. However, he was in a situation where he had to do what he thought was the right thing, however doh! it must be. I doubt that if Robb was in the same situation, that he would have planned the massacre of supposed friends and lords in his own home.

As for the mutilations, they were done in a petty manner to mock the people they just betrayed. Just because it's done all the time doesn't make it any more right.

[bac5665]

Qyburn is exactly a representation of Mengala. And don't tell me that Mengala's work was without scientific value. He took meticulous notes and there are still debates today about whether or not to use his "reaserch", since it was so increadably detailed and there is no way mankind will ever have anyway of repeating his exparaments, due to the inhuman work necessary to do so. Qyburn does the same thing, test all sorts of painful, and leathel scenarios on living people and see what happens. Don't tell me that Qyburn isn't as bad.

[Klegane the Kinhater]

Vargo Hoat

Gregor Clegane Circa. The Sack of Kings Landing

Ramsay Snow/Roose Bolton

Euron Greyjoy?

And for Sentimental:

Randyll Tarly, for how he treated Sam :cry:

[Gregor Clegane Has a Posse]

So do I. Catelyn (well, Stoneheart, which I'm not sure is the same thing) certainly deserves it, but Thoros? Read the things he says to her. He's ashamed of what's become of the Brotherhood Without Banners! I suspect that he's pretty much a prisoner there.

Yeah, but does he do anything about it? Idly standing by while some psychopathic zombie bitch kills a child, a knight and a lady of noble birth who was severely wounded while defending said zombie bitch's allies is every bit as bad as putting the nooses 'round their necks himself.

[Anath]

Qyburn is exactly a representation of Mengala. And don't tell me that Mengala's work was without scientific value. He took meticulous notes and there are still debates today about whether or not to use his "reaserch", since it was so increadably detailed and there is no way mankind will ever have anyway of repeating his exparaments, due to the inhuman work necessary to do so. Qyburn does the same thing, test all sorts of painful, and leathel scenarios on living people and see what happens. Don't tell me that Qyburn isn't as bad.

I completely agree. No matter what the purpose was, the people are still tormented and dead and Qyburn is still the same monster he would have been if he was doing all these things just for themselves. In fact I'm not quite sure he wasn't. Scientific value or not, no man would do such exparaments on living people if he didn't receive pleasure from the cruelty itself.

[Arbor Gold]

When I think of the word "scumbag", Craster is the first character that comes to mind. Walder Frey is probably the dude I hate the most, but Craster is just...icky. A degenerate, daughter-banging, son-killing lowlife.

[Lord Qyburn]

Qyburn is exactly a representation of Mengala. And don't tell me that Mengala's work was without scientific value. He took meticulous notes and there are still debates today about whether or not to use his "reaserch", since it was so increadably detailed and there is no way mankind will ever have anyway of repeating his exparaments, due to the inhuman work necessary to do so. Qyburn does the same thing, test all sorts of painful, and leathel scenarios on living people and see what happens. Don't tell me that Qyburn isn't as bad.

You'll have to point me to these notes. The only things he'd done I was aware of was injecting blue dye into peoples eyes and that sort of thing.

Anath, have you considered that he's just a sociopath? Sadists aren't the only ones who commit crimes.

[Jaime L]

Scumbag literally means Ramsey Bolton....the guy smells and acts like a scumbag and has lips which Theon so eloquently described looking like "two worms fucking."

Is that like an automatic bid to the Scumbag Hall of Fame?

[Kingslayer]

Scumbag literally means Ramsey Bolton....the guy smells and acts like a scumbag and has lips which Theon so eloquently described looking like "two worms fucking."

In Ramsay's defense, he only smelled bad because he was pretending to be Reek. He's now fully washed and wearing the finest clothes.

[NYC Falcon]

GRRM for creating them?

Oh great, blaming the messenger again.

[Anath]

You'll have to point me to these notes. The only things he'd done I was aware of was injecting blue dye into peoples eyes and that sort of thing.

Anath, have you considered that he's just a sociopath? Sadists aren't the only ones who commit crimes.

Yes, I think so. There are a lot sorts of crimes but that isn't just the desire to do something that you know is wrong and pay the price for it if caught. That is not like "Give me your wallet, oh, you don't want, OK, I'll take it by myself", strike him and run with the prey. That is a crime against mankind. It is quite frightening to think what could do a sociopath with Qyburn's skills - because he is not stupid at all. He could do as much evil as Aerys who was mad but powerful.

[Lord Qyburn]

Which is why he's my favorite semi-minor sub-villain in the series. Damn this book has too many characters.

[Enoch]

Anath, have you considered that he's just a sociopath? Sadists aren't the only ones who commit crimes.

That's right on point, LQ. It seems far more likely to me that he just doesn't care, sees his subjects as a means to an ends and perhaps not really human anyway. Doesn't make what he does any better, of course.

Still, Euron and Qyburn both get credit for style, even if they're utter bastards. Littlefinger is too personable to be King Scumbag. Rorge and Biter are too scrubbish. Same goes for Pyat Pree. Now, Vargo Hoat, there's a real contender. However, down to a judgment call: I think it's still Gregor Clegane. I just don't like that guy.

[Bran's Muffin]

I feel Gregor is sort of the personification of violence and evil. He really seems to have no conscience. (Burning his brother, harming his wives, hurting people just because they're there.) But at the same time, I feel like because he has no conscience (People like Ramsay Bolton, some of the eviler Wildings like Craster and the Bloody Mummers fit into that same category).

So they'renot as hateable as some of the others. Because they chose evil, for their own selfish reasons, to do bad things. I think that's why hated Tywin, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey the most.

[bac5665]

I'm not sure I can go into any detail on Mengela's exparaments on the board. Many of them are extreamly graphic and grusome. One of the mildest was that Mengela would encase people in ice and see at what body temperature they died. Then he would repeat the experament dozens of times to make sure the data was consistant. Also, he would remove organs and see how long people would live, see what substances people could ingest and in what quanteties, etc. Stuff that would have caused excrusiating pain and among the least pleasant deaths possable.

[Anath]

I'm not sure I can go into any detail on Mengela's exparaments on the board. Many of them are extreamly graphic and grusome. One of the mildest was that Mengela would encase people in ice and see at what body temperature they died. Then he would repeat the experament dozens of times to make sure the data was consistant. Also, he would remove organs and see how long people would live, see what substances people could ingest and in what quanteties, etc. Stuff that would have caused excrusiating pain and among the least pleasant deaths possable.

You're right, please don't go into details. I've read about his exparaments for an exam on the topic how thin the border between madness and ginius is and I've just began to forget about that. Let's discuss Qyburn, not Mengela. Qyburn has the advantage of being just a fictional character.

[bac5665]

Fair enough.

[Mr Smash]

Yeah, but does he do anything about it? Idly standing by while some psychopathic zombie bitch kills a child, a knight and a lady of noble birth who was severely wounded while defending said zombie bitch's allies is every bit as bad as putting the nooses 'round their necks himself.

I think the things he says in their defense are legitimate, myself. For instance, his comment that (paraphrased heavily) "Justice and mercy can no doubt still be found somewhere in the realm, but do not look for them here. This is a cave, not a temple, and men soon run short on these when they are forced to live beneath the earth like animals."

What exactly could Thoros have done that wouldn't have gotten him strung up in a tree next to them? Like I said, I think he's basically a prisoner of the Brotherhood. They're keeping him around because of what he's done for them, but he does not approve of what they've been doing, and he makes this pretty clear to Brienne.

[Enoch]

I feel Gregor is sort of the personification of violence and evil. He really seems to have no conscience. (Burning his brother, harming his wives, hurting people just because they're there.) But at the same time, I feel like because he has no conscience (People like Ramsay Bolton, some of the eviler Wildings like Craster and the Bloody Mummers fit into that same category). So they'renot as hateable as some of the others. Because they chose evil, for their own selfish reasons, to do bad things. I think that's why hated Tywin, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey the most.

This motives-versus-consequences thing is actually a pretty classic philosophical argument. I lean towards consequences I suppose; I care far more about what and how much evil stuff someone has done than why they did it.

[Milz]

He's not the biggest but I'm going to throw him in anyway. Bloody Allister Thorne. I don't quite know where he is coming from with constantly going after Jon.