Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Elrostar,So you're telling me that if four million babies (or even a hundred thousand) were dying of some natural cause or another, there wouldn't be tremendous public outcry demanding that we improve conditions and prevent these deaths? I'm just talking about the US here, but if a miscarriage (or an otherwise failed pregnancy) were seen as being the same as having a child die, this should be the number one focus of the US health care system. Forget about curing cancer, this is important.But it's not, apparently. Because people don't feel this way about miscarriages. And that is my point. There is an inherent lack of consistency, which there should not be if people really want to deal with this in a legal manner, or an ethical one.Anyway, this is all way off topic and I'm not going to continue it further in this thread.As Malt pointed out in the other thread Miscarriages are not infrequently babies who couldn't survive for one reason or another. I'm saying miscarriages are very simlar to deaths by natural causes as there's not much medical science can do about them. That said there are efforts to promote better prenatal care and other efforts that improve the survival rate of unborn children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 What other thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Can we move this to fourm games, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiaranAnnrach Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Looks like it's from the 10th or 11th page of US Politics, Number 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluge Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Actually, one thing that interests me about this is that the natural process that the Plan B pill induces happens very frequently to fertilized eggs (or so I'm told, I'm a liberal arts major). And yet, no one treats it as a big deal, as they tend to do in the case of miscarriages. So I'd say that this certainly indicates that we do have some spectrum, at least unconsciously, of the progression of whether or not a fetus is "human". Alright, I'm probably not making sense, but it's just something I wanted to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Timely, and sad, thread for me. Unless a minor miracle occurs tomorrow at my Doctor's, I am scheduled for my fourth D&C on Thursday. And trust me, a miscarriage is a real loss, for both the parents. There's also a huge mobilization of healthcare professionals that deal with people who have multiple miscarriages. I am currently seeing (since my second) a fertility specialist, a rheumatologist that specializes in women's health, a haemotologist that specializes in women's health and a high-risk OB-GYN. There is a huge amount that can be done to prevent miscarriages, once the cause is known. Sometimes the cause is genetic - if one or both parents has an abnormal karotype, then the parents can choose to do IVF with pre-emplantation genetic diagnosis. I have a friend who has two beautiful and healthy twin girls as a result. I personally have auto-immune disorders and blood clotting disorders that make it more difficult for me to carry to term. I am being treated for all of these issues, and my bloodwork says that the treatment is working. That being said, sometimes, the embryo is simply not genetically normal and cannot be viable. It is this last category, Scot, to which I think you are referring.All of that said, I think that bringing spontaneous abortions into an elective abortion debate is a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 :grouphug: Zabz. That is tough stuff to go through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 It does raise some interesting side issues about the issue of fetal 'personhood'. I've never heard of anyone holding a funeral for a miscarriage before, and I think it's probably the exception rather than the rule. However I did just find some evidence for people doing so after a brief googling.If one considers a fetus to be a person and abortion murder, surely the disposition of natural miscarriages should be handled similarly to any person's corpse? With a cemetery plot or whatever? And yet it doesn't seem that this has happened for the overwhelming majority, and only very recently as a side-effect of the anti-abortion movement. It really seems to me like a belated attempt to play catch-up in consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turinturambar Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 It does raise some interesting side issues about the issue of fetal 'personhood'. I've never heard of anyone holding a funeral for a miscarriage before, and I think it's probably the exception rather than the rule. However I did just find some evidence for people doing so after a brief googling.If one considers a fetus to be a person and abortion murder, surely the disposition of natural miscarriages should be handled similarly to any person's corpse? With a cemetery plot or whatever? And yet it doesn't seem that this has happened for the overwhelming majority, and only very recently as a side-effect of the anti-abortion movement. It really seems to me like a belated attempt to play catch-up in consistency.It's hard to bury a blood clot. With a miscarriage, there is no body to bury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Zabsy,I'm very sorry to hear that. Please accept my condolences for your loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 It's hard to bury a blood clot. With a miscarriage, there is no body to bury.Not unheard of among the post-born either. Funerals are held for those who die in explosions, fires, horrific industrial accidents, and such cases where there is effectively no body. They generally bury what there is.My condolences as well, Zabzy (and apologies for injecting a morbid tone into the thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thebadlady Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 This thread is in horrible taste. how selfish to press an agenda to make a personal point when there are people who would be hurt by such a tasteless comparison.:X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 First, thanks to everyone for the condolences.Second, on funerals, some grief counsellors suggest it as a way of achieving "finality" on the loss. For me that advice seems hokey, but for others it is apparently quite helpful. In terms of process, Turin has it right, at least for early-stage miscarriages, there isn't much to see (not really much one would differentiate from a heavy period). Often, those miscarriages are so-called "chemical" pregnancies where no fetal pole ever developed. As a pregnancy progresses, there is more to "see." To the extent possible, a lot of people have any fetal tissue tested for genetic or other abnormalities so that they know better "what happened." I don't know that I've ever cared what happened to the tissue after they were done with it. I suppose we could have an ethical debate about that, but I don't feel strongly about what happens to my body after I die, so I've never cared much about fetal tissue that my body, for one reason or another, has rejected. Late miscarriages (before they become technically "still-births") you might see something identifyable and maybe one could care more. People do routinely bury stillbirths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Rhelle,I'll edit the thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 This thread is in horrible taste. how selfish to press an agenda to make a personal point when there are people who would be hurt by such a tasteless comparison.:XI (think obviously) agree. However, I think many people are remarkably ignorant on exactly what a miscarriage is and why it might happen (I know I was before I started this process), and this might as well be a forum for banishing some of that ignorance. I still only give it another page and a half before train wreck status results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Rhelle,I'll edit the thread title.Thanks, Scot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Stark Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Actually, one thing that interests me about this is that the natural process that the Plan B pill induces happens very frequently to fertilized eggs (or so I'm told, I'm a liberal arts major). And yet, no one treats it as a big deal, as they tend to do in the case of miscarriages. So I'd say that this certainly indicates that we do have some spectrum, at least unconsciously, of the progression of whether or not a fetus is "human". Alright, I'm probably not making sense, but it's just something I wanted to share.This is a myth. Plan B (levonorgestrel) suppresses ovulation and hence fertilization. It is not an abortifacient by any definition. I should add that many spontaneous abortions are caused by chromosomal abnormalities or lethal alleles that result in a non-viable fetus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thebadlady Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Rhelle,I'll edit the thread title.thread title is only part of how disgusting this thread is. push your agenda in church, don't rub people's faces in where they shouldn't have to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turinturambar Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I (think obviously) agree. However, I think many people are remarkably ignorant on exactly what a miscarriage is and why it might happen (I know I was before I started this process), and this might as well be a forum for banishing some of that ignorance. I still only give it another page and a half before train wreck status results.My wife and I went through a miscarriage a few months ago, I was definitely uneducated on the situation before it happened. It's a tough process. I don't know if you've ever watched Marley and me, but that's exactly how it happened for us. We were all excited going to the doctor, and then we got the news.... and my wife is still not over it. Good luck with everything, you have my condolensces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Rhelle,We were talking about it in the other thread. A new thread was requested. I started one. If you think I've overstepped decorum please report me to Ran or a Mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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