General Questions

[Ran]

Hawick came from GRRM's own heraldry notes to us, years ago. However, yes, with AFfC it appears that House Cox is in charge of Saltpans. The wiki entry should be updated. The Citadel... not quite sure what we'll do with that one. We'll probably hope that GRRM'll clarify it to us when we get to the world book.

[Evrach]

Thanks a lot ^^

So... wait & see :bang:

I have a lot of "incoherence-about" questions ^^ I'll post them when I have the time to translate them into english >___<

[Werthead]

A couple of thoughts after flipping through AFFC:

Do we know who Ser Morghil is? Or what he accused Naerys of that caused Aemon to champion her in a trial by battle?

I'm thinking (for possible RPG-Blackfyre campaign purposes) maybe he was a knight who accused Naerys of sleeping with Aemon. Aemon 'proved' Naerys innocent by killing this Morghil, but the accusation stayed with Aegon IV. Might explain some of his later attitude towards Daemon Blackfyre and his apparent reluctance to have Daeron II follow him.

Also, do we know who replaced Gyles Rosby on the small council as treasurer after his death?

[Evrach]

Do we know who Ser Morghil is? Or what he accused Naerys of that caused Aemon to champion her in a trial by battle?

No,We don't know :Only occurrence in AGOT - Sansa 16 if my memory's good.

Also, do we know who replaced Gyles Rosby on the small council as treasurer after his death?

I don't think. Didn't Cersei said she wanted to restore Littlefinger in his fonctions after the lord déclarant would have chase him away from the Vale? but... :rolleyes:

[Ran]

Morghil is mentioned in Cersei's last chapter in AFfC, as well. But no more information than his name and that he fought Prince Aemon when Naerys was accused.

I don't think Cersei ever got around to appointing a new master of coin. I assume some functionary was carrying out the task at the time of her arrest.

[lordberry]

Is it normal that the capital letters are taken in consideration when i do researches or redirections?

[The hairy bear]

Is it normal that the capital letters are taken in consideration when i do researches or redirections?

Yes, the wiki software distinguishes capital leters with only one exception: the initial letter which is always treated as a capital letter.

To clarify: typing "aegon" will get you to the article "Aegon", but "aegon targaryen" wouldnt lead you to "Aegon Targaryen".

[lordberry]

on this page we can see that the Ashford Tourney has been given many different names, is "Ashford Tourney" the right one?

[Werthead]

on this page we can see that the Ashford Tourney has been given many different names, is "Ashford Tourney" the right one?

There's also two, just to be a bit more confusing. The one in The Hedge Knight and the one in A Clash of Kings (or was that Bitterbridge? Crap, I need to do a reread). The one in The Hedge Knight seems to be referred much more to as the 'Tourney at/of Ashford Meadow'.

[Evrach]

In the page "House Darry"; There is this sentence :

For unknown reasons, Lord Raymund Darry is called Ser Raymund Darry during A Game of Thrones. However, his lordly rank is mentioned once.

Is this so obvious that Raymun is really lord ? the sentence where his lordly rank is - supposedly - mentionned is very ambiguous.

[Ran]

The Darry situation is all quite confused. For example, in ASoS we're given the list of Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, and young Lord Darry. Sounds like three people there. If it weren't for that, I'd say that Ser Raymun inherited the title of lord, but then had it stripped away by Robert (along with much of the Darry wealth and lands, no doubt), but people still often refer to him as Lord Darry.

[Evrach]

They are notified in the list of people Lannisters kill ; Ser Raymun Darry is first, then Lord Darry, and then the young lord Darry.

If Raymun is not lord Darry & if Raymun is killed before lord Darry, then Lyman, his son, become the new lord Darry (mentionned as young lord Darry here), isn't it ?

Raymun is clearly mentionned as Ser in the book & in the appendix, Ser but master of Castle-Darry.

The only possibility I see is that lord Darry is too old or too sick to rule the house, so Raymun is leading the House de facto.

But never in the books Raymun is named "lord Darry"...

Furthermore, in The Citadel (that you said it come from GRRM own notes), it is said "The house is ruled by Lord Darry, with his heir being Ser Raymun Darry and his heir in turn being Lyman Darry, a boy of about 8 or 9 years" ; On tower of the hand, Lord Darry & Raymun are listed as two different characters. I think we have to make a choice and write the page with good notes & refs to be coherent. No ?

Edit : Another ref in ASOS last chapter, Merret Frey is said to have marry Lord Darry's Daughter, refering to Mariya Darry. So I really think the lord Darry referenced in the books is the father of Raymun, Willem & Jon Darry, that he's still alive in AGOT (probably in his 90's) ; that he's killed during the Riverlands sack, making the young Lyman lord Darry.

[Ran]

Well, that bit was my speculation. The only thing George provided us were the arms, all the write ups are my own work for the most part.

The problem is that we're told that before the war, the castle belonged to Raymun Darry, and then later he is referred to as "his lordship", and "the lord's chambers", and so on and so forth. If there is a Lord Darry who was Raymun's father, he does not reside at Castle Darry and is entirely out of the picture until we have it mentioned in passing that he's one of those killed by the Lannisters.

Like I said, if it weren't for that listing in ASoS, the obvious solution is that references to Raymun Darry as a lord, indirect and direct, are referring to a status he once held but no longer does thanks to the results of the war. It's something I hope to get clarified for the world book.

[Evrach]

That is not obvious that "the lord's chambers" refers to Raymun's when you read the paragrph. Raymun is mentionned twice as "ser" Raymun in the same time we talk of the lord's chambers. So don't think we're talking about Raymun's chambers.

I agree with the fact that lord Darry does not reside at Castle Darry.

there is 3 Darrys in the BwB's list ; a lord Darry often noted that seems quite different from ser Raymun... like Sherlock Holmes says, the easier answer is often the right one. Hope too it will be clarified for the world book.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I see it the same way as Evrach; that possibly Raymund's father was living up to the start of the war but was infirm or senile and kept out of sight, possibly at some septry elsewhere even. Though Jaime's reflection of 'the Lord's chamber' suggests that it was kept for him. It seems like a Hoster Tully situation, only maybe even more extreme.

[Ran]

Well, the easiest answer is that the BwB aren't census-keepers and aren't founts of irrevocable knowledge. ;)

As to the matter of the lord's chamber, the lord's chambers=Raymun's chambers:

The lord's bedchamber had changed since his last visit, and not for the better. Old stale rushes covered the floor in place of the fine Myrish carpet that had been there previously, and all the furnishings were new and crudely made. Ser Raymun Darry's bed had been large enough to sleep six...

So, when people are talking about his lordship and the lord's bedchamber, they're talking about Raymun, not his father or grandfather or what have you.

The lord of the castle is said to be Raymun in AGoT, BTW, and the lord's seat is also said to be Raymun's.

I don't really see any room for it here. I think the easiest solution is the one that I've said: that Raymun was a lord for a brief point at the end of the war (remember, three older brothers died, so he could have assumed the lordship), had it stripped from him (when the Darrys were punished by Robert for being Targaryen loyalists), but everyone still referred to him as Lord of Darry. The BwB's list than has to be taken as some kind of error, or maybe it's ungrammatical and it could have been: "Ser Raymun Darry, (who was) Lord Darry, (and) young Lord Darry."

[Evrach]

It's still a possibility, of course, but I also remember that Riverrun's men call Edmure "lord" as lord Hoster is still alive ; so if Raymun assures the lordship since a long time, it's not surprising some people talk about his lordship. I think if he had been stripped from the lordship when the Darrys were punished by Robert, it had been mentionned at some point in the book. Moreover, Robert isn't the kind of man to punish people like this, he was more the kind of people to become friend with his ex-ennemies...

[Ran]

Of course Robert was the sort to do that. He did that to the Conningtons, in fact, only restoring them as knights rather than as the lords they were; which he didn't have to do, of course, but still, he chose to restore them only part way.. He did it in part to the Merryweathers, emptying their treasury when he handed back their castle and title (see here for more information). The Darrys were unrepentant Targaryen loyalists, as Jaime tells us in AFfC; why should Robert treat them differently?

In any case, in the epilogue to ASoS, we're told that the Darrys lost half their lands, most of their wealth, and almost all of their power when Robert assumed the throne. Clearly, he punished them, and "almost all of their power" sounds to me like a reference to their losing rights and privileges that they had held.

[Evrach]

Yes I know all of this (think I read all the SSM so many times I lost counet) Robert made it with the Conningtons but not with the Merryweathers ; 50%-50% , hard to be sure of what Robert did with the Darrys... & Robert was more the kind of man to befriend than to punish like said Stannis. Also, Jon Connington was a special case, he was the only known friend of Rhaegar, & Robert still wanted revenge against Rhaegar, even after killing him, it explains the very hard treatment given to the Coningtons I think. After all, half of noble houses were "loyalists until the end".

OMHO, the two cases are possibles, and that's driving me crazy not to know ^^ hey, give me a rope please ^^

[Guest Other-in-law]

One difference with the Conningtons is that they were Robert's personal bannermen before the war...sworn to Storm's End. So their siding with Aerys was much more of a betrayal than Darry or Merryweather. Of course, he didn't strip the lordships from Cafferen, Fell, or Grandison either, but they were different in that they personally submitted to him during the war. Jon Connington never did, just some cousin seeking advancement.

"Almost all of their power" could also refer to the Darrys no longer being able to put nearly as many men into the field after they lost half their lands (especially if the half he kept were less populated than those he lost, which apparently included the crossroads inn and it's nearby village of 50 houses and a market).

It would seem odd for Raymun, and Raymun alone, to lose his Lordly title for life, but for his son to immediately regain it, even though Robert himself was dead by then and the Lannisters would hardly reinstate a family currently in rebellion.