It doesn't make any sense for Jon to be at the Tower of Joy

[Angalin]

If you assume that Lyanna was pregnant by Rhaegar, that Ned didn't know it, and that he went to Starfall to get the baby and figure out a cover story, it's also possible that Ned took one look at a dark-haired infant Jon and said, hey, this is going to be easy. If the baby had little hair and it was hard to tell what colour, it would have been a few months of crossed fingers that Jon's colouring would be more Starkish.

[Edward the Great]

I haven't a clue what you mean about Ned's desire to send Lyanna into hiding. Where do you get this? Is this just speculation about his possible response if he knows Lyanna doesn't want to go marry Robert? If so, you might be right, but I see no real evidence that shows us that's Ned's course of action.

We can see Ned intended to send Lyanna into hiding because he didn't even bring an honor guard with him. Ned was sent south at the head of an army large enough to lay siege to Highgarden, if necessary, and he shows up at the Tower of Joy with 6 fanatically loyal, high ranking bannermen? What other explanation could their possibly be?

I accept complications from Lyanna's pregnancy being the reason that the Kingsguard remained at the Tower. They probably wanted to go into exile but couldn't just leave the queen by herself to die.

he went to Starfall to get the baby

I can't buy that. The fact that all 3 Kingsguard are at the Tower tells me that Jon is at the Tower.

[Angalin]

I can't buy that. The fact that all 3 Kingsguard are at the Tower tells me that Jon is at the Tower.

Makes it even easier for Ned, then. :) He can see right away whether or not he needs to co-opt Ashara to help him with his cover story, although she might not be too keen on helping Ned given that he's just killed her brother.

[Shewoman]

I have trouble understanding the title of this thread. If we assume that Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's baby (which isn't proven but does explain why three of the Kings Guard would be with her, as does the comment one of them makes to Ned, explaining their presence with "We swore an oath", it makes sense for her to be somewhere that doesn't attract a lot of tourists, somewhere close to the Daynes' seat of power, since they are friends of Rhaegar's.

My impression is that Rhaegar installed Lyanna at the Tower of Joy fairly soon after he and she fell off the Westerosi radar, but was killed before he could move her elsewhere. In any case, If Lyanna is Jon's mother, which we don't know for sure, it makes sense that he is where she is or in the general vicinity. It also explains the KG's continuing presence.

[Jon Targaryen]

Miriel,

Since I was not explicit enough before I will be extra explicit here--pardon me if I am stating the bleeding obvious! But if the whole goal of Lyanna and Ned was to save Jon from Robert's irrational hatred of all things Targ, then for Ned to show up anywhere with a baby looking even a little Targ-like sees too risky to me. Risky in the sense that someone might have put two and two together and came up with the idea that the baby was not the honorable Ned's at all but Lyanna's.

Perhaps I am just laying too much emphasis on the whole possibility of the baby looking like the Targs though...

It is indeed risky but if had turned out that way ... well that's the way the cookie crumbles. Sansa pleaded as Lyanna had pleaded once, in other words for someone's life - Lyanna for baby Jon under the theory. Some hazier speculation is that Lyanna wanted Ned to ensure the safety of the babe, no one else could do it. So Jon wouldn't be going off to Braavos with Ashara. It truly might have been safer but Lyanna wants her brother to care for the child under the speculation.

I'm sorry if I missed it already but is there some alternative you think Ned and Lyanna should have taken?

Edward the Great,

We can see Ned intended to send Lyanna into hiding because he didn't even bring an honor guard with him. Ned was sent south at the head of an army large enough to lay siege to Highgarden, if necessary, and he shows up at the Tower of Joy with 6 fanatically loyal, high ranking bannermen? What other explanation could their possibly be?

I think there is something you are not explicitly stating, assuming the reader knows it, that I am not grasping. The usual explanation for bringing six men with him is that Ned suspects some funny business went on and he will probably want to keep it secret.

Shewoman,

I have trouble understanding the title of this thread. If we assume that Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar's baby (which isn't proven but does explain why three of the Kings Guard would be with her, as does the comment one of them makes to Ned, explaining their presence with "We swore an oath", it makes sense for her to be somewhere that doesn't attract a lot of tourists, somewhere close to the Daynes' seat of power, since they are friends of Rhaegars'.

My impression is that Rhaegar installed Lyanna at the Tower of Joy fairly soon after he and she fell off the Westerosi radar, but was killed before he could move her elsewhere. In any case, If Lyanna is Jon's mother, which we don't know for sure, it makes sense that he is where she is or in the general vicinity. It also explains the KG's continuing presence.

It appears the OP feels the same way now. I also agree that all three KG at the tower makes it implausible Jon is not there.

[Miriel]

Miriel,

It is indeed risky but if had turned out that way ... well that's the way the cookie crumbles. Sansa pleaded as Lyanna had pleaded once, in other words for someone's life - Lyanna for baby Jon under the theory. Some hazier speculation is that Lyanna wanted Ned to ensure the safety of the babe, no one else could do it. So Jon wouldn't be going off to Braavos with Ashara. It truly might have been safer but Lyanna wants her brother to care for the child under the speculation.

I'm sorry if I missed it already but is there some alternative you think Ned and Lyanna should have taken?

Other than taking the baby out of Westeros, no.

My point was really more along the lines of that I see this as a potential argument against R+L=J. For Ned/Lyanna to take the chance of raising Jon at Winterfell prior to them knowing he would not look like the spitting image of Rhaegar just seems a trifle idiotic to me.

I like the "hazy speculation" of Lyanna wanting Ned to keep the baby with him as opposed to just ensuring the baby's safety--I had missed that particular bit of speculation. Thanks!

[Ser Greguh]

The "risk" of the plan to raise Jon as Ned's bastard in Winterfell (due to the possibility of him having Targaryen features) does not strike me as problematic for R+L=J whether Jon was at the ToJ when Ned arrived or not. If he was there, then Ned would have been able to see the babe for himself and see that he had Stark, and not Targaryen, features. If he wasn't, then presumably Lyanna would have gotten a look at the kid and been able to confirm what she looked like.

Personally the version of the story that I prefer is that Jon was there and that Ned's promise to Lyanna was quite generic; along the lines of "Keep my child safe." I credit further developments to improvisation on the part of Ned and Howland Reed.

[Jon Targaryen]

Personally the version of the story that I prefer is that Jon was there and that Ned's promise to Lyanna was quite generic; along the lines of "Keep my child safe." I credit further developments to improvisation on the part of Ned and Howland Reed.

It is my opinion that it was probably more than that as Lyanna was pleading to Ned, crying out for Ned to promise her something. Then, when Ned gave his word, she visibly relaxed. A simple, "keep the child safe" would seem to be taken for granted and would not warrant relief on Lyanna's part when Ned agrees. However, I concede it very well could have happened like that because of Robert's hatred of the child's father; I just find it a little ... anti-climactic.

[Mezeh]

Jon – Lyanna apparently knew that she was dying and there are few things that dying man (or woman) would be afraid of. The welfare of her child is one of them for dying mother and Lyanna also knew that she was asking Ned a lot – lot enough to be afraid then he may refuse even her death wish. To ask to rise Rhaegar’s son and his own definitely fit’s and I could not think about something else that would fit as well.

[Maia]

Wanted to throw in a couple of things:

Concerning "broken promises", Ned also thinks about Jon with the sense of deep shame in his penultimate or ultimate chapter and fervently wishes to talk to him. This makes me think that Ned didn't fulfill his promise to Lyanna fully and that in particular sending Jon to NW in ignorance of his true parentage went directly counter to this promise.

IMHO, Lyanna wanting her son to live out his life as a Stark bastard is highly unlikely, given the norms of their society. Maybe she wanted him to grow up that way - safe, in her own childhood home, with the brother whom she loved and trusted. But robbing her son of his birthright and condemning him to a "lesser" existence? Not IMHO.

BTW, it is a great idea that Rhaegar ordered Hightower to stay at ToJ in order to avoid his opposition to "changing things" as regards Aerys. Hightower wasn't with Rhaegar from the beginning - he was sent to bring the Crown Prince back to KL after several big setbacks to Targ cause.

Re: baby Jon, I always thought that Jon was no longer at the ToJ when Ned and Co arrived, but has been there very recently. I mean, the KG seemed to be forewarned about Ned's coming _and_ they seemed to be on foot. I realise that it was a dream, but still. My guess would be that the plan was to wait until Lyanna was well enough to travel or died, but when they saw Ned coming, they sent the baby together with Wylla and perhaps Ashara and whoever else to Starfall, with all the horses for speed. This way they could ride much quicker, leaving exhausted horses behind, and outpacing Ned even if KG didn't manage to permanently stop him. When the group arrived as SF, Wylla claimed baby Jon as her own to people living there. But something went wrong - maybe the expected ship wasn't there or they couldn't move as quickly as they hoped with a newborn. In any case, when Ned followed them to SF, Jon was still there and the current Lord Dayne or maybe even Ashara herself caved to Ned's pressure and handed Jon to him.

Ned going into enemy territory through the mountains with a newborn in tow and just Howland Reed and Wylla to back him up in order to return a sword never made any sense to me. That would be putting baby's life at a great risk.

Re: Ashara's suicide, she knew about Ned's marriage for close on a year and while Ser Arthur's death at Ned's hand would have been very sad, the man's job was to risk his life and death is an ever-present reality for everybody in Westeros anyway.

Unless Ashara was just a completely unbalanced girl there had to be a stronger reason, IMHO.

Maybe something she has done helped Ned to find ToJ? We never heard how Ned knew where to find this supposedly secret retreat. In this case she'd feel directly responsible for what happened there and logically feel tremenduous guilt.

[Mezeh]

Don’t forget that no one seen lady Ashara dead and Ned never expressed any feeling of guilt towards her. Taking his character into account it is unlikely if he was direct or even indirect cause of her suicide. This could actually mean one of two things – either her reason to commit suicide has nothing to do with Ned’s actions or she is still alive and Ned knew it.

[Last Valyrian]

But robbing her son of his birthright and condemning him to a "lesser" existence? Not IMHO.

According to the common theory, Jon has no birthright at all, since he is a bastard.

Or are you also supporting the "Rhaegar and Lyanna were married" scenario?

If this is the case, this would rather produce more open questions than it would solve.

[Mezeh]

As far as I know there is no common theory on the case. Targaryen’s practiced polygamy from time to time to Rhaegar was able to marry Lyanna. We don’t know if he did so if R+L=J theory is true Jon may be both bastard and trueborn son of Rhaegar.

[Grim Shady]

While rereading GoT this time around I'm almost 99.997% convinced that Jon is Ned's son. There were a couple red blinking lights that are hard to ignore and when the series is all done and if it turns out that he is Rhaegar's son some of those red blinking lights aren't going to make sense. All of the red blinking lights are in Eddard chapters.

I used to buy the R+L=J theory. I had thought about the possibility when reading the books the first time. But at this point if it turns out to be true I'll be surprised.

Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had a kid and that would certainly explain the 3 KG being present at the ToJ but I don't think Jon is that kid.

[Happy Ent]

Targaryen’s practiced polygamy from time to time to Rhaegar was able to marry Lyanna.

That claim can also be formulated in an extra-narrative way: “GRRM festooned the fictional history of House Targaryen with legally accepted polygamy so that Rhaegar was able to marry Lyanna.†After all, otherwise the Targaryen marriage custom would be in the books only to add colour, but serves no plot purpose. Depending on one’s priors, one may view it as more parsimonious that GRRM put that detail in there because he needed it as a central cog in the pivotal scene of the hole epos.

[Ser Greguh]

IMHO, Lyanna wanting her son to live out his life as a Stark bastard is highly unlikely, given the norms of their society. Maybe she wanted him to grow up that way - safe, in her own childhood home, with the brother whom she loved and trusted. But robbing her son of his birthright and condemning him to a "lesser" existence? Not IMHO.

To quibble with this point, by the time of the events at the ToJ, Robert had already won. He held KL and was murdering Targaryens left and right. Presuming R+L=J (legit remix), the only way Jon is going to come into his birthright is via another rebellion. This plan is fraught with problems: for one, it means life as an exile ala Viserys/Dany with the uncertain hope of returning to Westeros with an army capable of defeating Robert; for another, that's stepping on Viserys's plan, and what are you going to do? Head to Braavos, knock on the house with the red door, and say, "Yo, Uncle, I hate to break it to you but my mom married your elder brother in secret and had me before she died, so I'm the rightful King, not you. Wanna join my army"?

So, if Jon's not coming into his birthright by any plausible means (and I think it quite reasonable that Lyanna, on her deathbed, with Ned's news as to how the war had gone, would have seen this), then the choices are very limited. Whatareya gonna do? Acknowledge that he's Rhaegar's son and tell Robert, trusting that his professed love for Lyanna and Ned will outweigh his hatred for all things Targaryen and the pragmatic whispers from his advisers who will point out that any spawn of Rhaegar's is a potential threat to his rule?

My guess would be that the plan was to wait until Lyanna was well enough to travel or died, but when they saw Ned coming, they sent the baby together with Wylla and perhaps Ashara and whoever else to Starfall, with all the horses for speed. This way they could ride much quicker, leaving exhausted horses behind, and outpacing Ned even if KG didn't manage to permanently stop him. When the group arrived as SF, Wylla claimed baby Jon as her own to people living there. But something went wrong - maybe the expected ship wasn't there or they couldn't move as quickly as they hoped with a newborn. In any case, when Ned followed them to SF, Jon was still there and the current Lord Dayne or maybe even Ashara herself caved to Ned's pressure and handed Jon to him.

Personally I just don't see how it makes any sense for the the Kingsguard to still be at the tower after Jon has left. Lyanna would have been nothing to them. Hightower made it clear (vis a vie his conversation with Jaime as Aerys II raped Rhaella) where his priorities were when it came to protecting the King vs. the Queen. If they sent Jon away, I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that at the very least one, if not two or all three, wouldn't have gone with him.

This posits the coincidence of Ned & company arriving essentially just as Lyanna is giving birth, but that is the sort of coincidence that in my mind is permissible in fantasy literature. It's echoed, albeit in a somewhat perverse sense, when the Night's Watch arrives at Craster's keep in ASoS just in time for Gilly's son to be born, and just before the shit goes down there, as well. I pause to note that that sequence of events also involves a woman pleading for her son to be kept safe from a "king" (as Craster believes himself) that will murder the child if he remains where he is.

Ned going into enemy territory through the mountains with a newborn in tow and just Howland Reed and Wylla to back him up in order to return a sword never made any sense to me. That would be putting baby's life at a great risk.

The baby's life was at great risk in any case; the mountains of Dorne are not exactly near any "friendly" strongholds. We don't know the exact geographical location of the ToJ but it's entirely possible that the decision to go to Starfall was out of simple pragmatism if it was close at hand. If it's more equidistant with, say, Highgarden to the North and Oldtown to the West, Ned may have chosen Starfall anyway as he felt he could have the best chance of a friendly reception there due to his history with Ashara.

Re: Ashara's suicide, she knew about Ned's marriage for close on a year and while Ser Arthur's death at Ned's hand would have been very sad, the man's job was to risk his life and death is an ever-present reality for everybody in Westeros anyway.

Unless Ashara was just a completely unbalanced girl there had to be a stronger reason, IMHO.

Maybe something she has done helped Ned to find ToJ? We never heard how Ned knew where to find this supposedly secret retreat. In this case she'd feel directly responsible for what happened there and logically feel tremenduous guilt.

This is a possibility, but so too is the supposition that she was not in on any of it, and that when Ned came to Starfall with a baby in tow, claiming that he'd fathered it off one of her retainers, she believed him. Presuming she had loved him, that would mean that the war had changed him and that the man she had fallen in love with was worse than married; he was dead, as the Ned she knew would never have done such a thing. Combined with the fact that Ned had just killed her brother and had the sword to prove it, and the level of grief is more than enough to cause her to throw herself off a cliff.

[Edward the Great]

According to the common theory, Jon has no birthright at all, since he is a bastard.

Or are you also supporting the "Rhaegar and Lyanna were married" scenario?

If this is the case, this would rather produce more open questions than it would solve.

Most people seam to accept that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

It would solve the key issue of why all 3 kingsguard are at the Tower. Either Martin has dodged the question, or he is guilty of atrocious writing. I also don't believe they could have sent Jon away just before Ned arrives because all 3 are at the Tower.

If they could have sent Jon away to Ashara, they would have a long time ago. They are bound by their oaths to be with Jon at all times, and they can't just abandon the queen-mother. If it weren't for those restrictions, they could have sent Jon into hiding in the free cities long ago.

Jon's "birthright" as a son by a 2nd wife is a bit dodgy at best. The Kingsguard and Dorne may have accepted him, but who else?

Grim Shady, your post is for another thread, not this one. This thread is about why Jon was or was not at the Tower of Joy and closely related issues. You are disputing the very premise of the thread. You should start your own.

I think there is something you are not explicitly stating, assuming the reader knows it, that I am not grasping. The usual explanation for bringing six men with him is that Ned suspects some funny business went on and he will probably want to keep it secret.

What am I not explicitly stating? And it seams to be you are making a distinction without a difference. There was some funny business Ned wanted to keep secret. Well, we agree about that.

[Winterfail]

From Maia:

Ned going into enemy territory through the mountains with a newborn in tow and just Howland Reed and Wylla to back him up in order to return a sword never made any sense to me. That would be putting baby's life at a great risk.

They didn't plan it; Ned just dealt with the reality of the situation (stuck with a baby in hostile territory with only Reed and a wetnurse) the best way they could with the resources available to them at the time, and Ned probably felt that Ashara was a resource, despite recent developments.

[SFDanny]

Wanted to throw in a couple of things:

Great post, let me throw in my response.

Concerning "broken promises", Ned also thinks about Jon with the sense of deep shame in his penultimate or ultimate chapter and fervently wishes to talk to him. This makes me think that Ned didn't fulfill his promise to Lyanna fully and that in particular sending Jon to NW in ignorance of his true parentage went directly counter to this promise.

IMHO, Lyanna wanting her son to live out his life as a Stark bastard is highly unlikely, given the norms of their society. Maybe she wanted him to grow up that way - safe, in her own childhood home, with the brother whom she loved and trusted. But robbing her son of his birthright and condemning him to a "lesser" existence? Not IMHO.

I fall to the side that Ned doesn't know Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne. It depends, of course, on how long Lyanna has with Ned before she dies, and whether or not there are others at the Tower who know this part of the secret and are willing to tell Ned about it. My take is that Ned has very little time with Lyanna before she dies (based on the "they found him" description) and that the others there, Wylla at least, have no reason to tell him of this fact - assuming they know it. I think Ned has a tremendous amount of guilt towards Jon because he hasn't told Jon the truth all these years. He has let Jon assume he is his father his whole life and has refused to tell him his mother's name. That explains much of his guilt, but I think he also regrets letting Jon take his vows without full knowledge of who he is. Not because he thinks Jon should be sitting on the Iron Throne, but because such vows should be taken when one is older and more experience in life. He knows Jon chooses the Night's Watch because he has never been able to fully fit into life at Winterfell, as much as Ned has tried to make it possible. Anyway my take on it.

BTW, it is a great idea that Rhaegar ordered Hightower to stay at ToJ in order to avoid his opposition to "changing things" as regards Aerys. Hightower wasn't with Rhaegar from the beginning - he was sent to bring the Crown Prince back to KL after several big setbacks to Targ cause.

I agree

Re: baby Jon, I always thought that Jon was no longer at the ToJ when Ned and Co arrived, but has been there very recently. I mean, the KG seemed to be forewarned about Ned's coming _and_ they seemed to be on foot. I realise that it was a dream, but still. My guess would be that the plan was to wait until Lyanna was well enough to travel or died, but when they saw Ned coming, they sent the baby together with Wylla and perhaps Ashara and whoever else to Starfall, with all the horses for speed. This way they could ride much quicker, leaving exhausted horses behind, and outpacing Ned even if KG didn't manage to permanently stop him. When the group arrived as SF, Wylla claimed baby Jon as her own to people living there. But something went wrong - maybe the expected ship wasn't there or they couldn't move as quickly as they hoped with a newborn. In any case, when Ned followed them to SF, Jon was still there and the current Lord Dayne or maybe even Ashara herself caved to Ned's pressure and handed Jon to him.

Ned going into enemy territory through the mountains with a newborn in tow and just Howland Reed and Wylla to back him up in order to return a sword never made any sense to me. That would be putting baby's life at a great risk.

I don't think Ned has a choice really, and I've argued, as Ser Greguh does, that the presence of all three kingsguard at the tower means the heir is still there when Ned arrives. If so, Ned has a newborn Targaryen child he must account for in some way. He can't go back to his troops and just show up with the kid. He has to develop a cover story and he has to get the child out of Robert's reach until he does. At the time, that means Dorne, as the Reach and every other part of Westeros has already bent the knee, and his best bet in Dorne is not at Sunspear where he not only knows no one he can count on, but where Lyanna's child would also be looked at with hostility as the spawn of Rhaegar's "other" woman. At Starfall he at least knows Ashara, and by going there he allows the gossip mongers to add her name in the mix of who is the mother of the child he now claims as his own. It is not a course without great risk, especially for Ned himself, but as long as he has a wet nurse with him - Wylla in all likelihood - the child has a good chance at surviving the journey. What he does is essentially by doing an honorable thing - returning Ser Arthur's sword to his parents and asking them for help in sheltering a Targaryen child - he also purposefully uses Ashara as a cover, likely without her consent to begin with, in order to safeguard Lyanna's child. Just the kind of thing that would tear Ned up with guilt for years to come.

Re: Ashara's suicide, she knew about Ned's marriage for close on a year and while Ser Arthur's death at Ned's hand would have been very sad, the man's job was to risk his life and death is an ever-present reality for everybody in Westeros anyway.

Unless Ashara was just a completely unbalanced girl there had to be a stronger reason, IMHO.

Maybe something she has done helped Ned to find ToJ? We never heard how Ned knew where to find this supposedly secret retreat. In this case she'd feel directly responsible for what happened there and logically feel tremenduous guilt.

Yes, I agree and have argued for this scenario before. I think Ned likely finds out Lyanna's location at the lifting of the siege of Storm's End. I think his source is likely from Ashara, but why she would be with the besieging forces I don't know. As an emissary from Dorne to the last loyal forces outside of Dorne? I don't know, but I think if she tells Ned where Lyanna is and her brother dies from that knowledge, then it is more than enough to explain her suicide. It would also help to explain Martin's insistence that Ashara was not "nailed down" in Starfall.

[Shewoman]

Grim Shady, what are the "blinking lights" that make you think Ned must be Jon's father? If he is Jon's father, why not tell Jon and Catelyn that? His refusal to name Jon's mother hurts Catelyn. Ned loves her; why wouldn't he relieve her of her belief that his silence about his bastard's mother means he loved that woman more than he loves his wife? Why would he use Jon's bastard status as an excuse not to take him to Kings Landing with him if Jon isn't actually a bastard? If you believe that Lyanna is Jon's mother, then you're talking about incest. That doesn't sound very Ned-like to me--and in any case, I'm not sure when Ned and Lyanna were together after Harrenhal and before her disappearance (which led to Brandon and his men going to Kings Landing)--and, as others have said, no child conceived at Harrenhal could have been born after the end of Robert's Rebellion.