It doesn't make any sense for Jon to be at the Tower of Joy

[Ran]

No. GRRM's never identified where the tower of joy is located. The closest he's come is telling us where it's not located -- he said the tower was not a part of Summerhall.

[SFDanny]

We do know that it is somewhere along the red mountains of Dorne - on either side of the border. Add that to Ran's comment and you still have an awful lot of territory in which the tower could be located.

[Jon Targaryen]

If he allows Jon to go into the Night's Watch without telling him who his parents are, including the rather HUGE secret that he is the rightful heir to the throne of Westeros, it casts Ned's conduct in a very different light than if he believes Jon is Rhaegar's bastard. If so, he knowingly allows Jon to take a vow, something Ned has taught him to view as sacred, that gives up his birthright without any knowledge of what he is doing. I understand that at the time Ned must think any rebellion to put Jon on the throne would be treason and suicidal to boot, but it is a type of conduct I don't see Ned doing - or perhaps it is only that I hope it is something he wouldn't do. I've gone back and forth on this one, but that's where I stand on it at the moment. Perhaps you two can convince me I'm wrong.

Nah, probably not. It's a legitimate objection and the only thing I can think of is what you already mention, that any drive to claim the throne by Jon would be suicide and Ned doesn't want to give him the temptation, at least until he's older. But by agreeing to a career in the Watch, Ned is putting it out of bounds before Jon is of age to decide for himself. However, I still feel it's hoping against hope here that Ned didn't know or figure it out at the least. He had to ask, as we have, "why were all of Aerys' remaining Kingsguard here instead of at Dragonstone?"

If it were revealed that the ToJ was geographically located very close to Starfall (less than a day's march, say), would that piece of information resolve this problem in your eyes? If the life of the child were at stake, they would have marched to the nearest available city to find a wetnurse, and perhaps sought after Ashara Dayne, known to still be on good terms with Ned, for sanctuary?

It would make the case stronger but Ned would have to be on good terms with Lord Dayne as well, seeing as how he was probably calling the shots, being Lord and all. Lord Dayne, presumably a Targaryen supporter, and Ned would have had to reach an agreement to raise Jon in hiding, instead of for the throne. Or maybe that was not necessary at that time.

Either way, the Daynes would be a problem. If Jon is brought there with just Howland they could take the babe away. If Ned arrives to take Jon, they could keep Jon. So I guess it's a non-starter. Something worked in any case and it has to satisfy both theories. Oh well, good exercise. :)

Some very tenuous speculation is that the tower of joy is on the northern side of the mountains of Dorne as Ned rides up to the tower and the KG have the mountains at their backs. With Ned coming from Storm’s End, that would fit. However, Ned could have easily wheeled about.

[Edward the Great]

It would make the case stronger but Ned would have to be on good terms with Lord Dayne as well, seeing as how he was probably calling the shots, being Lord and all. Lord Dayne, presumably a Targaryen supporter, and Ned would have had to reach an agreement to raise Jon in hiding, instead of for the throne. Or maybe that was not necessary at that time.

Some part of the army that was brought south to break the siege of Storm's End was brought very near to Dorne. Remember Cersei asking Ned about how many keeps he had destroyed in Dorne or some such? I don't know if Martin has filled us in on any details of the fighting, but I think it is safe to assume that Ned has an army strong enough to crush Dorne beneath his heel if it comes down to it.

[SFDanny]

Nah, probably not. It's a legitimate objection and the only thing I can think of is what you already mention, that any drive to claim the throne by Jon would be suicide and Ned doesn't want to give him the temptation, at least until he's older. But by agreeing to a career in the Watch, Ned is putting it out of bounds before Jon is of age to decide for himself. However, I still feel it's hoping against hope here that Ned didn't know or figure it out at the least. He had to ask, as we have, "why were all of Aerys' remaining Kingsguard here instead of at Dragonstone?"

I would add that Ned has seen one member of the Kingsguard kill his own king, and may have already seen another pledge his sword to Robert rather than support Viserys's claim. So, it is possible he thinks these three reached a similar conclusion. Not something I buy, but it would have to be considered. You're right, of course, Ned certainly wonders why the trio are there preventing him from getting his sister. That's, in essence, the thrust all of Ned's questions to them in his dream. Anyway, ask me next week and my answer may be the opposite. As I said I've gone back and forth on this one.

It would make the case stronger but Ned would have to be on good terms with Lord Dayne as well, seeing as how he was probably calling the shots, being Lord and all. Lord Dayne, presumably a Targaryen supporter, and Ned would have had to reach an agreement to raise Jon in hiding, instead of for the throne. Or maybe that was not necessary at that time.

Either way, the Daynes would be a problem. If Jon is brought there with just Howland they could take the babe away. If Ned arrives to take Jon, they could keep Jon. So I guess it's a non-starter. Something worked in any case and it has to satisfy both theories. Oh well, good exercise. :)

Some very tenuous speculation is that the tower of joy is on the northern side of the mountains of Dorne as Ned rides up to the tower and the KG have the mountains at their backs. With Ned coming from Storm’s End, that would fit. However, Ned could have easily wheeled about.

I'd only add that if Jon is the heir to the throne, he is the most dangerous child in all of Westeros. Dangerous for anyone who would protect him from Robert, if Robert ever finds out the truth. It could be the Daynes, while willing to help support Ned's story and hide the Targaryen heir, don't particularly want him raised in Starfall. The prospect of Robert laying siege to their city can't be something they would forget to consider.

[Mezeh]

I would add that Ned has seen one member of the Kingsguard kill his own king, and may have already seen another pledge his sword to Robert rather than support Viserys's claim.

Not likely with the last part. Selmy was gravely wounded at Trident and he admitted betraying Viserys not Aerys so Robert didn’t offered him job until Aerys was dead. And after KL fall Ned immediately went to Storm End and then to the TOJ.

[SFDanny]

Not likely with the last part. Selmy was gravely wounded at Trident and he admitted betraying Viserys not Aerys so Robert didn’t offered him job until Aerys was dead. And after KL fall Ned immediately went to Storm End and then to the TOJ.

Not exactly. Ned and Robert are together at King's Landing for Robert's coronation. We know Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys are pardoned, and we know Tywin presents the bodies of Elia and her children - leading to a heated argument between Ned and Robert. All of this takes place after the sack and Aerys's death. So, when does Selmy agree to betray Viserys? I don't know, which is why I put it the way I did. It is possible he arrives in King's Landing with the similarly wounded Robert and agrees to serve him then. It's possible he doesn't do so until later when he learns the fate of his brothers at the Tower of Joy. I don't know for sure, and if you can pinpoint when it does take place with a text reference that would be great.

[Errant Bard]

Doesn't Selmy tell Dany that he woke up after Tywin laid the children's corpses before Robert and so there was nothing left to fight for?

[SFDanny]

Doesn't Selmy tell Dany that he woke up after Tywin laid the children's corpses before Robert and so there was nothing left to fight for?

I don't remember that, EB. If you have a page reference that would help a lot, thanks.

It is interesting that Selmy is not pardoned along with Jaime, Varys, and Pycelle. Not that couldn't mean he is just thought to be too important to be done in the same group and has his own moment at the coronation. I think it likely however, that it means he accepts his pardon at a all together different time.

[Shewoman]

Edward the Great, in your opinion where does it make sense for Jon to be?

[Edward the Great]

Edward the Great, in your opinion where does it make sense for Jon to be?

The tenuous conclusion has to be that he was at the Tower of Joy, but until Martin reveals the exact location of the Tower, and preferably we know where Ned's army was camped with details about what fighting ocurred, you can't draw a final conclusion. If Ned brings Jon back to camp, Jon's cover is blown. Willa may have been at the Tower, but people think Jon was Ashara's kid, not Willa's. Traveling a long distance unescorted with an infant would be extraordinarily dangerous. How far did Ned have to travel to Starfall? We don't know. Martin hasn't given us sufficient information.

As to Barristan - he may have been waiting until Jon was a "man grown" (Martin's most overused phrase) before supporting his claim.

[Grim Shady]

I think what Grim Shady is getting at is that it should have been impossible to think of Lyanna without thinking of Rhaegar, if R+L=J, yet we know that Ned thinks of Lyanna weekly and hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years.

Ding! That's one.

In fact, he thinks of the lusts of men and thinks of Jon and how much Jon looks like him (Ned). Then I think it is two pages later where he thinks of Rhaegar and how he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years. He's moved on at this point. The same thing has not generated both thoughts.

Now say you just finished reading the big reveal from Howland Reed in book 5 or 6. Reed: "Hi, I'm Howland Reed. People call me Howland Reed. I'm a shrimp boat captain. Boy do I have a whopper of a story to tell you folks! Whee doggy!" Holy monkey balls! Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son!!!? That's unpossible!!!1!

So you run over to your bookshelf and grab GoT and reread it again. Everyone knows GoT is the ASOIAF Bible. Forget the volumes between GoT and the one where the reveal is. If GoT is wrong, you might as well stop there considering that it is the first volume afterall. Two people survived the ToJ, so we got 50% of them as a POV in GoT. You start reading things like Robert asking just how many bazillions of times Rhaegar must of raped Lyanna. You keep seeing the haunting "promise me, Ned. promise me" popping up. You know that Jon was around Ned right up until he heads south with the King.

And yet!

And yet!

Ned has not thought of Rhaegar in years.

How in the 666 Hells does he not think of Jon's father? Even when Robert mentions him? Even when he thinks of the lusts of men? Even when he thinks of Lyanna? Don't you think there'd be a connection if it were true? How do you see Jon day after day and not think of his real parents? Both of them.

Jon is either Ned's bastard or Ned has some serious mental blockage.

About the only thing I'll accept at this point if Jon is Lyanna's boy, is if she was raped by Aerys and he's Aerys' kid, not Rhaegars. Maybe Rhaegar saved her from Aerys. I dunno. I just can't believe he is Jon's father when Ned doesn't even seem to think of Rhaegar. Rhaegar just doesn't seem to be a part of Ned's memories other than the Trident.

If Jon is Rhaegar's son, every time I reread GoT, I'll get to these flashing red lights and see some puzzle pieces that DO NOT fit in their slots.

And there's still more than just his uncanny skill at not thinking about Lyanna's baby daddy. Doobie doobie doo...

[Miriel]

Willa may have been at the Tower, but people think Jon was Ashara's kid, not Willa's. T

The current Lord of Starfall (Squire Ned who is traveling w/ Lord Beric) tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother. He doesn't think Ashara is Jon's mother. And Ashara is his Aunt.

So, clearly there are lots of different thoughts out there (as well as on this board :) ) re: Jon's mum.

[Ran]

Well, mileage varies. I can easily see how someone would prefer to never think of the man who brought ruin to your family and your realm, while still thinking of the dead sister who had loved that man.

I would guess that Ned never blamed Rhaegar, per se. It was a tragedy, and Rhaegar "happened" to Lyanna and to his family, but it wasn't really about Rhaegar for him, if that makes sense.

Still, mileage obviously varies on the meaning of the fact that Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar as a person for years.

[Miriel]

I can also envision a scenario in which Ned, a very disciplined person, decides that in order to save Jon and fulfill his promise to Lyanna, he has to completely disconnect Jon from all things Targ. Even in his own thoughts. So, he never thinks about Rhaegar and that aspect of Jon's heritage. Because that would be too dangerous.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

It is interesting that Selmy is not pardoned along with Jaime, Varys, and Pycelle. Not that couldn't mean he is just thought to be too important to be done in the same group and has his own moment at the coronation. I think it likely however, that it means he accepts his pardon at a all together different time.

I find that persuasive. It seems probable that Barristan was pardoned earlier than the other three.

As to Ned not thinking of Rhaegar in years, I'm not sure why this affects only one theory and not the others. Rhaegar played an enormous role in Lyanna's life regardless of the exact details. Insofar as it's odd at all, it's just as odd for him not to think of the man who kidnapped and savaged his sister as it is to not think of the man who she willingly eloped with. He casts a huge shadow either way.

Also deliberately suppressing memories of Rhaegar makes sense too, to not just tell the lie but to believe it himself.

[Errant Bard]

I don't remember that, EB. If you have a page reference that would help a lot, thanks.

Checked it, it seems I was misremembering the scene, he makes no mention of the time he woke up or bent the knee to Robert. Sorry for that.

[Shewoman]

A close friend of mine was murdered years ago. For a long time I was so angry and grief-stricken that I couldn't even bring myself to say the murderer's name. My feelings about the killer were so strong that I almost couldn't remember my friend anymore--my anger and grief at his death almost eclipsed my memories of his life. I think Robert has lost Lyanna in the same way I lost my friend: He's fixated on her death to such an extent that he doesn't really remember her anymore.

I think that for Ned, the important thing about Jon (in addition to the fact that Ned loves him) is that he's Lyanna's child. In his mind, it's Lyanna's child he's protecting even if the child is also Rhaegar's.

Ned frequently focuses on the last time he saw Lyanna (just before she died at the ToJ). Both Ned and Rhaegar were at Harrenhal, but I'm not sure they met at any other time. Ned doesn't fly into rages at the mention of Rhaegar the way that Robert seems to (and Ned doesn't endorse Robert's rages on the subject). I think that's a clear choice on Ned's part. I don't think he feels about Rhaegar the way that Robert does. Perhaps Robert's obsession with the late Prince is one reason Ned doesn't go on and on about how awful Rhaegar was--that and the fact that he has a nephew to protect.

[Edward the Great]

Ned frequently focuses on the last time he saw Lyanna (just before she died at the ToJ). Both Ned and Rhaegar were at Harrenhal, but I'm not sure they met at any other time. Ned doesn't fly into rages at the mention of Rhaegar the way that Robert seems to (and Ned doesn't endorse Robert's rages on the subject). I think that's a clear choice on Ned's part. I don't think he feels about Rhaegar the way that Robert does. Perhaps Robert's obsession with the late Prince is one reason Ned doesn't go on and on about how awful Rhaegar was--that and the fact that he has a nephew to protect.

It's quite clear that Ned respected Rhaegar a great deal.

[Jon Targaryen]

OIL has a great point about the "lack of Rhaegar obsession" dilemma.

It's quite clear that Ned respected Rhaegar a great deal.

I wouldn't go that far or even close to it really. Robert says he kills Rhaegar every night in his sleep and that Rhaegar deserves to die many times. Ned has "nothing to say to that." Not an agreement or condemnation of Rhaegar but not a ringing endorsement or defense either. Ned thinks of Rhaegar very briefly as the guy who named the tower of joy. Ned remembers Rhaegar embarrassing his wife to give the laurel to Lyanna at Harrenhal. I don't detect much either way there either though on the face of it it would not speak well for Rhaegar. The best Ned can think for Rhaegar is that he would not frequent brothels. Lots of guys don't go to brothels but they aren't necessarily respected a great deal.

Other people respected Rhaegar a great deal. Jorah, Barristan, to a lesser extent Jaime. Ned is not clear.