Fertility problems in the 21st century

[MinDonner]

I don't think it's really about encouraging women to have children earlier it's just about making sure women realise that if they want to have children it's far easier to do so at a younger age. That isn't really an issue for society it's an issue for women who want to have children.

I'd disagree with that on two counts - 1, women who want children are part of society so of course it's an issue for society, and 2, it's arguable that producing children is a vital job for the continuation of said society.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lyanna,

It is a trade off. As a result though we might want to have one more child we have chosen to limit ourselves to two children. It would be a financial stretch to have a third and caring for an infant in our early forties would be something of a challenge.

[ljkeane]

I think most women are very well aware of this fact. The simple fact is that society is set up to make it much harder for women to do this, and the media encouragement to men not to have children earlier again adds yet more difficulties into the mix.

Sure I appreciate there are a lot of obstacles but the impression I get from the coverage of this issue I've seen hasn't been that women have some obligation to be having children earlier but that many women who want children are unable too because they have tried to have children later.

I don't think the financial realities are going to change anytime soon and if someone wants to have children they have to recognize the biological difficulties. That's not a statement about whether choosing to have children later is the wrong choice simply that if having children is a priority then waiting reduces your chances. :dunno:

[Minaku]

I find this interesting. Having children during the 20s seems to be the best time and many women would like to have their first child before hitting 30, both for their health and the health of the child. At the same time, we want to be financially stable and settled in (dare I say nested?) before even thinking about reproduction. Well, some of us do, others just want babies.

Instead of encouraging women to reproduce earlier, perhaps the better thing to do would be to encourage men to be men, and tell them it is not a significant loss to be a responsible member of society. Am I straying off the path here? Maybe I need to start a thread on re-empowering men.

[ljkeane]

I'd disagree with that on two counts - 1, women who want children are part of society so of course it's an issue for society, and 2, it's arguable that producing children is a vital job for the continuation of said society.

I don't think I was very clear with my post, what I meant was I don't think it's about "encouraging" women to have children at any time, it's simply about making sure women who do want children realise that waiting may mean that they are unable too (which I'm sure many women are already aware of).

To be perfectly honest I don't think it makes a massive difference to society as a whole if some women who want to have children are unable too, on the other hand it can be very important to some women so this is a decision were they should be aware of all the facts when they make it.

[Datepalm]

I don't think the financial realities are going to change anytime soon and if someone wants to have children they have to recognize the biological difficulties.

I think thats a rather reactionary position. Theres nothing farfetched in passing a law requiring paternal leave for example, which could close to halve many of the burdens faced by women having kids who financially can't afford to, and personally don't want to give up their careers.

[Silverstar]

Instead of encouraging women to reproduce earlier, perhaps the better thing to do would be to encourage men to be men, and tell them it is not a significant loss to be a responsible member of society. Am I straying off the path here? Maybe I need to start a thread on re-empowering men.

If what you mean is, encouraging men to grow up a bit earlier, instead of still trying to act like adolescents in their early/mid-thirties (which is all too common amongst many of the guys I know), then I'd back that all the way :)

[Silverstar]

To be perfectly honest I don't think it makes a massive difference to society as a whole if some women who want to have children are unable too, on the other hand it can be very important to some women so this is a decision were they should be aware of all the facts when they make it.

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't necessarily a 'decision' that a lot of women make ... it's their only option, if we want to discount the 'getting pregnant accidently-on-purpose' or 'finding a sperm donor' options with regards to the argument I was making, and the 'completely give up on trying to forge a successful career' option with regards to Lyanna's points.

[Minaku]

If what you mean is, encouraging men to grow up a bit earlier, instead of still trying to act like adolescents in their early/mid-thirties (which is all too common amongst many of the guys I know), then I'd back that all the way :)

Right. Because isn't that the mark of a man? Someone who is financially independent and stable, responsible for his actions and his words, and carries himself with dignity and integrity? That's the kind of person I want to be the father of my children. By re-empowering men I don't mean we should return to the wife-beating days of yore, but rather that those good qualities that women have come to value and desire in themselves should likewise be found in men. Egads, an egalitarian society.

[ljkeane]

I think thats a rather reactionary position. Theres nothing farfetched in passing a law requiring paternal leave for example, which could close to halve many of the burdens faced by women having kids who financially can't afford to, and personally don't want to give up their careers.

Regardless of the amount of paternal leave etc having a child is going to be a significant financial burden which many people wouldn't want to take on. There are some things that could be done but financially I would imagine it's always going to be easier to have a child a later age.

The point I'm trying to make is that this isn't necessarily a 'decision' that a lot of women make ... it's their only option

I appreciate that but I don't see a realistic way that is going to change anytime soon, having a child represents a significant financial burden which is easier to bare at a later age but waiting represents a reduced likelihood of being able to have a child. That doesn't seem likely to change so women will have to make difficult choices.

[Datepalm]

To be perfectly honest I don't think it makes a massive difference to society as a whole if some women who want to have children are unable too, on the other hand it can be very important to some women so this is a decision were they should be aware of all the facts when they make it.

First of all, it makes a massive difference to society. Birth postponement isn't somethign affecting someone here and there, its a farily massive trend thats been impacting birthrates across Europe for decades with some predictions of the consequences being nigh apocalycptic. (Aged hoardes of the selfishly unchildbearing going unsupported by their spoiled single offsprings, ranging zombielike through the emptied streets of former nations bankrupted by pensions and healthcare.)

Secondly, its not a biological choice. Theres nothing biological at work here at all. Its shaped by society and finance in a way that negatively impacts young couples, and women in particular.

[Lyanna Stark]

To be perfectly honest I don't think it makes a massive difference to society as a whole if some women who want to have children are unable too, on the other hand it can be very important to some women so this is a decision were they should be aware of all the facts when they make it.

Well, yes it does, because if women decide to have children later in life, or not at all (due to not being able to afford it) the birthrates will drop and we cannot cope with financing pensions for current pensioners and future pensioners.

Birthrates are very important for macro economic calculations and a severe drop in birthrates, or a large "delay" in women giving birth with all that entails affects the tax paying population.

I doubt there are any women over the age of 25 who don't know the dangers of being an older mother, so pointing this out to women will not do anything to change reality. Why would women's behaviour suddenly change because Downs Syndrome or other genetical defects are more common in older mothers? It is a cross a lot of women already bear and worry about. Stigmatising older mothers is not the way to go, imho.

The facts women are very aware of are clear: combining children and worklife is hard; the hit to your income will be difficult to deal with; the career options will be fewer and the career may very well take a turn for the worse.

I have nightmares about living on one incoming for 9 months and we're still in a position where we can most likely manage without too much pain (hopefully), yet most people aren't in as good a situation.

Biology isn't really a factor here, or at least a much smaller one. In my own case, I would have LOVED LOVED LOVED to have a better job, a larger house a more stabile economy etc etc. but as I am lethaly afraid of genetical defects, I decided it was now or never and we had a stab at it.

[Datepalm]

Regardless of the amount of paternal leave etc having a child is going to be a significant financial burden which many people wouldn't want to take on. There are some things that could be done but financially I would imagine it's always going to be easier to have a child a later age.

Er, no. It has been so recently. I dont want to become too much of a ranting marxist here (oh, who am I kidding.) and derail the thread, but thats becuase society is shaped that way now, and theres nothing that says it needs to stay that way, except entreched power structures backed by ingrained social perceptions.

[Silverstar]

Right. Because isn't that the mark of a man? Someone who is financially independent and stable, responsible for his actions and his words, and carries himself with dignity and integrity? That's the kind of person I want to be the father of my children. By re-empowering men I don't mean we should return to the wife-beating days of yore, but rather that those good qualities that women have come to value and desire in themselves should likewise be found in men. Egads, an egalitarian society.

And hopefully you have one :)

I know I'm probably stereotyping horribly here, but it's certainly the case amongst the vast majority of men my age that I know. The only male friends I have, that have children became fathers in their late thirties/early forties. Most of the guys my age would label any women who actively wanted to have a relationship which involved having children in the near future, as 'desperate' and someone to be avoided.

I'd love it if this wasn't the case in general, and that I was just hanging out with the wrong people, but I'd say the prevailing trends don't indicate that that is the case.

[ljkeane]

Birthrates are very important for macro economic calculations and a severe drop in birthrates, or a large "delay" in women giving birth with all that entails affects the tax paying population.

Sure, but as far as I'm aware that's not a problem at the moment. The UK population is still growing and I've have seen a number of people suggest that UK already has exceeded it's optimal population, although admittadly I think you're right that a falling population would present some economic problems.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sure, but as far as I'm aware that's not a problem at the moment. The UK population is still growing and I've have seen a number of people suggest that UK already has exceeded it's optimal population, although admittadly I think you're right that a falling population would present some economic problems.

Well, the question is of course how the population is growing? The UK has a lot more pensioners now than it used to, which means more younger people are needed in order to finance an older, sicker population.

A lot of the UK's population growth has also been due to immigration and not high birthrates per se.

[Chaldanya]

Lyanna,

Laura and I both have commented that having two young children would have been easier in our twenties simply based upon our energy levels as compaired to our children. That, I acknowledge, is completely anicdotal.

And on the other side you have my mother who had me at 20 and frequently said that she would have been better prepared and more patient at 30+ for a child...

As always YMMV

N

[Minaku]

And hopefully you have one :)

I know I'm probably stereotyping horribly here, but it's certainly the case amongst the vast majority of men my age that I know. The only male friends I have, that have children became fathers in their late thirties/early forties. Most of the guys my age would label any women who actively wanted to have a relationship which involved having children in the near future, as 'desperate' and someone to be avoided.

I'd love it if this wasn't the case in general, and that I was just hanging out with the wrong people, but I'd say the prevailing trends don't indicate that that is the case.

There are a number of factors contributing to this, and since it is linked with the thread topic I suppose discussion of it can stay here. All too often that kind of responsibility only comes to men when they are older (does this mean we should seek out sugar daddies?). It didn't used to be that way - a man in his mid-twenties would be considered a man, not a boy, and would be expected to rise to all the responsibilities being an adult entailed.

I'm just stream-of-consciousness-ing it today, this isn't some well-constructed, well thought out post. I also find myself scatterbrained more often nowadays, and unable to keep a serious thought in my head for very long. At any rate, I wonder if the push for powerful women has somehow disenfranchised men, and sent them into this Peter Pan state that a lot of them are in now. We see a great deal of it in the media - the Stupid Dad stereotype, the Bachelor stereotype, the Dude stereotype, the Man-Child stereotype, none of which are desirable to women seeking a good mate. This leaves women competing for a smaller population of men who are mature by the time they're in their late twenties.

Considering the differing maturity rates of males and females, can we really expect men to be capable of embracing responsibility by the time they leave college and strike out on their own? And is that a legitimate factor to attribute to the reason why women are conceiving later and later?

[ljkeane]

Well, the question is of course how the population is growing? The UK has a lot more pensioners now than it used to, which means more younger people are needed in order to finance an older, sicker population.

A lot of the UK's population growth has also been due to immigration and not high birthrates per se.

There are some issues with an ageing population but I'm not sure the solution is a continually growing population in the UK, I think that there needs to be other methods used to address this issue.

I'm not saying there aren't difficult choices for women and I suppose men to make about when to have children I just don't see how that is going to change short of abandoning the capitalist system as Datepalm suggests?

[Silverstar]

Considering the differing maturity rates of males and females, can we really expect men to be capable of embracing responsibility by the time they leave college and strike out on their own? And is that a legitimate factor to attribute to the reason why women are conceiving later and later?

I guess that partially depends on how much the different rates of maturation are simply biological, and how much it's down to culture and/or social factors.