MMA 2009 III

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm looking forward to someone knocking Lesnar down a few. Along with ham-fisted stand-up, this opponent will have a devastating leg-kick, mark my words. Lesnar's knees look weak enough to really capitalize on.

Lesnar's wrestling and punching power might be too strong for anyone to attempt leg kicks without preternaturally long legs.

Is there a way Stephen Neal can be drafted into the UFC?

[JGP]

I don't know. Most leg-kicks have a fair amount of snap to them. It's more the take-down you're opening yourself up to, but timed right most are pulled off witout reprisal and to great effect. Someone as weak knee-d looking as Lesnar, bearing that much weight... [shrugs] ...like to see how they'd weather it.

Anyways, good night of fights. GSP surprised me, yet again.

[Ken Stone]

Thought I'd post this funny exchange between Rampage and "King Mo". I love Rampage so much!

Rampage Imparts Wisdom To King Mo

[Oorag]

Rampage Imparts Wisdom To King Mo

Haha, nice, though subtitles would have helped. Mo does have a ways to go before he can start calling out top names. I do wonder how long he'll go in Japan before he makes the transition into the states. I recognize Lashley sittng next to Mo, but who's the Kumbaya guy?

[Stego]

I love the talk that there are no talented heavyweights, when in reality weight divisions were invented because light. middle, welterweights, no matter how talented, could never hope to compete with large men.

I'm a huge Machida fan. I love watching GSP. But the real champ is the heavyweight champ. Same with boxing. Everything else is 'worlds tallest midget.'

[GSP]

Gotta disagree Stego. The lighter the weight class, the more the fighters give er. WW and LHW have always been far more stacked in talent the HW. Heavies are big, and often incredibly boring, just like in boxing (countless rounds of hugging way too often).

I'd rather watch GSP, Machida, or Silva over literally any heavy weight by a long shot. When's the last time you saw a HW fighter land a spectacular flying knee, or tie someone up in a submission a fraction as slick as Maia? HW are impressive in their bigness, but not much else compared to the crazy raw skill being displayed in other weight classes. They got the big one punch knockout hands, but in the time they go to throw one, fighters in lower weightclasses have thrown a dozen and been to the ground and back in crazy transitions two or three times.

Think I'm talking pure shit? Watch the WEC sometime closely, you can't help but notice what I'm getting at.

I haven't heard it mentioned here, but in other MMA forums I'm hearing all about Bisping's 'glass jaw'. I guess Wanderlei has a glass jaw too, seeings it was an identical punch put him down? Who in MW has a jaw that could have shrugged off that strike?

[ljkeane]

I haven't heard it mentioned here, but in other MMA forums I'm hearing all about Bisping's 'glass jaw'. I guess Wanderlei has a glass jaw too, seeings it was an identical punch put him down? Who in MW has a jaw that could have shrugged off that strike?

My issue wouldn't be that he didn't shrug it off but that he got hit by it in the first place. It was pretty clear what was coming, if Bisping wants to challenge the best fighters it has to take more than that to beat him.

[Stego]

Maybe they're more exciting to watch, GSP. I did not say they weren't. But they are still little guys and not in serious contention for anything if there were no weight classes. What I'm saying is that weight classes exist for little guys and for promoters to make more money. Otherwise they would just get killed over and over again.

The heavyweight champion is the real champion. Lesnar Vs. Penn? Come on, now.

Female fights are fun to watch too, but we don't consider them a threat to a male fighter.

[Gilgamesh]

Maybe they're more exciting to watch, GSP. I did not say they weren't. But they are still little guys and not in serious contention for anything if there were no weight classes. What I'm saying is that weight classes exist for little guys and for promoters to make more money. Otherwise they would just get killed over and over again.

The heavyweight champion is the real champion. Lesnar Vs. Penn? Come on, now.

Female fights are fun to watch too, but we don't consider them a threat to a male fighter.

Eh? When is it ever about how big you are? Mike Tyson was 5"10, Joe Frazier 5"11 generously. Both fantastic champions who scared the **** out of their opponents. By contrast, Primo Carnera, Nikolai Valuev were 6"6 and 7"2 respectively, but Carnera got crushed by Joe Louis, and Valuev is a joke.

In real fights size is less important than attributes. Skill counts. Speed kills.

e.g.

[BLU-RAY]

Eh? When is it ever about how big you are? Mike Tyson was 5"10, Joe Frazier 5"11 generously. Both fantastic champions who scared the **** out of their opponents. By contrast, Primo Carnera, Nikolai Valuev were 6"6 and 7"2 respectively, but Carnera got crushed by Joe Louis, and Valuev is a joke.

In real fights size is less important than attributes. Skill counts. Speed kills.

e.g.

I think Stego would point out, far less politely that I am (:P) that boxing isn't really comparable as a fighting sport, because of the level of rules in place and the fact that it only really accounts for one aspect of fighting. But even still: Manny Pacquiao vs. one of the Klitschkos, dyou think PacMan has a shot? Skill and speed account for a lot in fights, but if there were no divisions, the smaller fighters would be at a really significant disadvantage.

In a fight, your absolute capability of inflicting and absorbing damage is what matters, not the relative. GSP might be capable of inflicting more damage and taking more punishment than Brock for his size, but it's incredibly unlikely that he'd actually have a shot to win a fight between the two of them.

[Stego]

Just so folks know I'm taking nothing away form GSP and Penn and all those folks I love to watch. Tough motherfuckers. But strength kills just as much as speed.

[Logan]

Just so folks know I'm taking nothing away form GSP and Penn and all those folks I love to watch. Tough motherfuckers. But strength kills just as much as speed.

I get the gist of this and I agree in principle, with the rules as is the heavyweight champion would beat the champion of any other division in a fight. Having that freak Lesnar on the scene distorts things though. I don't know that I would totally discount GSP against Couture, or glass jaw Arlovski, or clumsy Sylvia or even Mir for that matter. Saying fighter A could beat fighter B because fighter A is much bigger ignores the fact that fighter B can gain weight. I know it usually goes the other way, but if Joe Riggs can fight from between 300 and 170 pounds, its logical to assume most other fighters could change weights and still retain their basic skills. If there was only one division and you gave Machida or Anderson Silva enough notice and enough monetary incentive I'm sure they'd bulk up enough to contend with Lesnar. Right now being Middleweight or Welterweight champion is just as legitimate as being Heavyweight champ so there's not much incentive to change from the weight they're best at. Until recently those belts were worth more considering the weakness of the division.

I don't think its so very black and white. It wasn't that long ago that Royce Gracie showed everyone what skill without size can do. The money has progressed enough to change things but still, Choi Hong-man is huge and athletic enough and gets beat by much smaller men. Like I said having Lesnar there now distorts things, but if he gets bored in a couple years and changes to professional car throwing or whatever the next craze is, things open up again.

[Oorag]

I don't understand the point of this discussion. Sure a larger champion would beat a smaller champion if we ignored weight classes. And a man with a gun would beat a man without a gun if we let people bring weapons into the ring.

[TheHalfman]

Gotta disagree Stego. The lighter the weight class, the more the fighters give er. WW and LHW have always been far more stacked in talent the HW. Heavies are big, and often incredibly boring, just like in boxing (countless rounds of hugging way too often).

There are exceptions, but yes, the lighter fights can deliver a lot more. The problem with some is (especially the UFC LW division) that no one can finish. This is why I would like to see what Dana wants the ACs to do, 5x5 round regular fights and 7x5 round title fights. As for HWs that are (usually) always involved in barn burners (be it technical or sluggin); Shane Carwin, Nog, Fedor, Barnett, Yvel, etc. There are always exceptions.

[Analu]

It's not true that weight classes were invented because lighter guys couldn't compete with the heavyweights. They were put into place because that's part of what the ACs demanded in order to legally sanction MMA fights.

As pointed out earlier, Royce proved way back in the time of NHB facing guys like Severn, Kimo, etc. that it wasn't about size, when no one except the Brazilians trained in BJJ. But the sport's evolved a lot since then, and now you get a freak athlete the size of Brock who's turning everything upside down. I've never hidden my dislike for him, but that's a good thing, IMO. There won't be as many tweeners between LHW and HW, and HWs will be forced to adapt and evolve their own game to deal with Brock's.

The fanatical MMA purists despise the weight classes and timed rounds, and don't really like modern MMA. They want it to be like how it was when MMA first started, where you pitted one fighter against the other, no matter the disparity in size and weight. I'll admit that the brutality and sheer unpredicability of the early UFCs/Shooto/PRIDE fascinated me, but I still much prefer today's version of MMA.

And Brock's not indestructible and really doesn't like to get hit, from what I've seen. In the Couture and then the Mir fight, he got tagged a few times and was noticeably affected by it. He's just able to use his size and wrestling ability to overcome that. Heavy-handed, wrestling-centric HWs like Carwin and Velasquez have a decent chance against him, but if I had to guess, I'd say it'll be someone with a unique style who eventually beats him. Someone who has the natural stance to avoid his takedowns like Machida, or someone superb in the scramble and with excellent hips like Fedor.

There are exceptions, but yes, the lighter fights can deliver a lot more. The problem with some is (especially the UFC LW division) that no one can finish. This is why I would like to see what Dana wants the ACs to do, 5x5 round regular fights and 7x5 round title fights.

I dunno. The current 3-round, 5-round for title fight system seems fine to me. You get into 5-round, 7-round fights and you'll see fighters conserving their energy and not giving it their all, which would make for some pretty boring fights. And the UFC'll probably have to purchase a 4 hour PPV timeslot to accomodate that, which is why I'm puzzled why DW wants it. That guy would probably cheat his mom to save a buck or two.

As an aside, I was browing thru Forrest Griffins' new book at Barnes & Noble today, and he listed "Firefly" as his favorite TV show. Had to smile at that.

[Stego]

It's not true that weight classes were invented because lighter guys couldn't compete with the heavyweights. They were put into place because that's part of what the ACs demanded in order to legally sanction MMA fights.

*sigh*

Those rules were put in place to protect little men form big men. Don't fool yourself.

Royce Gracie had no competition. Those guys were big but did not know how to fight. Gracie was the best in the UFC at the time, but there wasn't much in the UFC. And Royce Gracie can't even compete at his own weight class these days.

I KNOW that most folks don't want to admit to themselves that big men would have no problem tying them up like a pretzel. I know this is hard for the average height/weight man to accept. But it's fact. And if the UFC were like it used to be without weight classes, it would be a dman shame. Because we'd never see talent like Penn or Florian or GSP or Serra. Because they'd be laughed out of the arena after their first 10 second loss.

[Analu]

Um, what? It has nothing to do with me not wanting to admit that a bigger man could beat me. No idea where you're getting that from.

But to continue...

Those rules were put in place to protect little men form big men. Don't fool yourself.

And again, that's not true. Or not entirely true, I should say. It was partly why the rules were put in place, but not the sole reason. A bigger fighter obviously has an advantage over a smaller one. It poses definite limits on a smaller fighter, and narrows the window of what they can and can't get away with. But my point is that that while it probably played a big part, it wasn't the only reason why athletic commissions made weight divisions and legally sanctioned fights.

And it wasn't until recently that this was decidedly noticeable. Put Lesnar in against Penn or GSP, and he'd steamroll them through sheer size and strength, regardless of technique and skill. But he's an anomaly (at least for now). Aside from him and maybe a couple other HW exceptions, I'd say that the lighter weight champs could make a fight out of it against any other HW. Even Couture admitted that he couldn't keep BJ down when they were training together.

It wasn't all that long ago that BJ was fighting and beating guys at 185 and held his own against Machida at LHW. Yeah, he probably had delusions of grandeur of fighting anyone, at any weight class, at any time (and that's partly why I love the dude), but he believed that technique > size. And I'm also firmly in that camp, though Brock has changed things some.

[ljkeane]

I KNOW that most folks don't want to admit to themselves that big men would have no problem tying them up like a pretzel. I know this is hard for the average height/weight man to accept.

Mate, I'm a hell of a lot bigger than probably the majority of the guys fighting below heavyweight, I'm still fairly confident that they would have little difficulty tying me up like a pretzel.

Of course size factors into the equation, Lesnar is a clear example of that. That doesn't mean we can't talk about the relative pool of talent at heavyweight and at the moment that's pretty bad. If Machida, Silva or GSP were anywere near Lesnar in size I'd be fairly confident about predicting that they'd beat him. It doesn't say good things about the talent in the heavyweight division if it's champion's major attribute is just that he's bigger than everyone else.

[Ser Aardvark]

Can we take a time out to talk about the Belcher/Akiyama fight? When my dad, father in law, and I watched it we were like the judges: split. Dad thought it would go to Belcher, my FiL Akiyama, I said draw. With all the arguments back and forth, we recently rewatched the fight with a pen and paper to score it and I still say it was a draw and my FiL agrees with me (my dad still insists Belcher won it though).

Regardless, it was an amazing fight that completely deserved Fight of the Night. And the extra $100,000 that Belcher got softens the loss he got I'm sure. Still, its one of those fights that's fun to argue about...what do you think?

[Ken Stone]

Can we take a time out to talk about the Belcher/Akiyama fight? When my dad, father in law, and I watched it we were like the judges: split. Dad thought it would go to Belcher, my FiL Akiyama, I said draw. With all the arguments back and forth, we recently rewatched the fight with a pen and paper to score it and I still say it was a draw and my FiL agrees with me (my dad still insists Belcher won it though).

Regardless, it was an amazing fight that completely deserved Fight of the Night. And the extra $100,000 that Belcher got softens the loss he got I'm sure. Still, its one of those fights that's fun to argue about...what do you think?

I just rewatched that fight last night and gave it to Akiyama, 30-27. The first round the both had a knockdown, but Akiyama had the better strikes. The second round Akiyama had a take down and GnP'd 3 minutes away, before they stood and stalemated on the feet the rest of the round. The third could of went either way, but I still had it for Akiyama.

Eh? When is it ever about how big you are? Mike Tyson was 5"10, Joe Frazier 5"11 generously. Both fantastic champions who scared the **** out of their opponents. By contrast, Primo Carnera, Nikolai Valuev were 6"6 and 7"2 respectively, but Carnera got crushed by Joe Louis, and Valuev is a joke.

When we talk about size we are talking weight, not height. That is why they have weight classes instead of, you know, height classes. :P

As of right now in the UFC I think Stego is correct. However not to long ago it wasn't the case. A few years ago Liddell was the the LHW champ, terrorizing his division, and Sylva was the shambling joke of a HW champion. There is no doubt in my mind that a superfight between those two would have seen Sylva KTFO, pretty quickly. To demonstrate the point more clearly after Couture/Liddell 3, Couture asked White if he could move up to HW, because he knew he was outclassed at LHW. He moved up, and took out the giant, then ruled the division until Lesnar. IOW there was a time (not to long ago) when the HW champ had lost two fights, in devastating fashion, to the LHW champ.