So what is this "Meereenese knot" Martin is referring to on his "not a blog"

[Werthead]

I don't think Margaery and Cersei will be rescued together, in any case. I suspect Cersei's salvation will come by some other fashion.

GREGOR SMASH!!! :)

This is my main problem with the way AFFC/ADWD was handled. We know that nothing too world changing has happened to the other characters, at least not until the very end of ADWD. Else word would have reached at least kings landing by the end of AFFC. Which means as you say, Dany will mostlike be embarking on her journey to Westros at the end of ADWD. But how exactly does that fit? If Victarion left for Mereene near the end of AFFC, as did the archmaester, it would seem to fit that they will be reaching her before she reaches Westros. Why have them go at all if they entirely miss Dany.

From the sound of it ADWD will take place over a notably longer period than AFFC, at least by several months. That to me suggestst that plenty of big events can happen later in ADWD (maybe even from halfway through the book onwards) without contradicting events in AFFC. The sheer amount of time it takes for news to travel from Meereen to Westeros also factors in: slightly more solid and reliable information about events in Qarth in ACoK is only just reaching King's Landing in AFFC, for example.

I'd expect Marwyn and Victarion to arrive in Meereen towards the end of ADWD and their actions may very well trigger Dany's return to Westeros one way or another.

[Alexia]

Margaery's described as pretty, rather than as stunningly beautiful (that's Loras).

Tyrion thought Margaery was a stunning beauty; Cersei was the one who called her pretty and she was jealous.

I don't think Margaery and Cersei will be rescued together, in any case. I suspect Cersei's salvation will come by some other fashion.

I think they have to be, no? No matter how much her former allies hate her now, the High Septon has to be slapped into his place and hard for political reasons. I rather envision Kevan and the Tyrells partnering to get both ladies out and disciplining the High Septon - and Kevan having Cersei shipped to a padded cell under Casterly Rock immediately after she comes out.

[Padraig]

They know, Varys told them. Cersei chose to dismiss it, like the stories about krakens and other supernatural phenomena. Of course, Varys didn't really phrase it so it would be taken seriously, then or after.

I know. But if that is the best level of info that can reach KL then I think it would be entirely consistent for news of other events to reach KL slowly.

At the same time, i'm not sure why i'm arguing this since as Werthead pointed out, aDwD will probably go beyond the timeline in aFfC. So its all immaterial.

[Gaston de Foix]

Margaery's described as pretty, rather than as stunningly beautiful (that's Loras). I don't really know that she's more beautiful than Cersei at this stage. However, later on, will Cersei still be a great beauty? That's a question.

I don't think Margaery and Cersei will be rescued together, in any case. I suspect Cersei's salvation will come by some other fashion.

I think the whole point of the Margaery-Cersei rivalry is misdirection. Cersei risks everything to destroy Margaery in order to avoid fulfilling the prophecy, which she unwittingly does by destroying the Lannister-Tyrell alliance and weakening Westeros sufficiently. Dany's the more beautiful queen of course, but she comes onto the scene much later. Which means Cersei will survive until Dany's invasion. Which kind of makes sense anyway, since the Valonqar is far, far away.

[Edward the Great]

What if Dany becomes queen, is killed by Loras, and then Margaery weds whoever claims the throne afterwards? That woudln't be cliche, and it would mean Margaery WAS the queen in the prophecy.

[Artas]

Which kind of makes sense anyway, since the Valonqar is far, far away.

Or merely far away, depending on who you think it is. ;)

[Alexia]

What if Dany becomes queen, is killed by Loras, and then Margaery weds whoever claims the throne afterwards? That woudln't be cliche, and it would mean Margaery WAS the queen in the prophecy.

Marriage to Margaery is beginning to look more and more like a death sentence. :P Besides, after the accusations against her its going to be pretty tough to find someone willing to marry her.

Which means Cersei will survive until Dany's invasion. Which kind of makes sense anyway, since the Valonqar is far, far away.

That's not a given; prophecies don't always come true in Martinland.

[Edward the Great]

Marriage to Margaery is beginning to look more and more like a death sentence. :P Besides, after the accusations against her its going to be pretty tough to find someone willing to marry her.

For most women who are not beatiful, wealthy, or powerful, I'd agree. But let's think like men, here. There are plenty of them who would still be willing to marry her. And if you want to secure the Iron Throne, you just might need her, whether you like it or not. With what's left of the other Great Houses, how do you expect to muster an army strong enough to bring Highgarden to heel?

[Alexia]

For most women who are not beatiful, wealthy, or powerful, I'd agree. But let's think like men, here. There are plenty of them who would still be willing to marry her. And if you want to secure the Iron Throne, you just might need her, whether you like it or not. With what's left of the other Great Houses, how do you expect to muster an army strong enough to bring Highgarden to heel?

Thrice wed, thrice widowed, and still a virgin. :lol: I'm skeptical and I have the benefit of reading the books.

And...you forgot about the Vale. They have a strong, fresh army and fully stocked granaries.

[Edward the Great]

And...you forgot about the Vale. They have a strong, fresh army and fully stocked granaries.

Highgarden mustered nearly as many men to support Renly's claim as Robert and Rhaegar brought to the Battle of the Trident combined. The Vale is not enough.

[Alexia]

Highgarden mustered nearly as many men to support Renly's claim as Robert and Rhaegar brought to the Battle of the Trident combined. The Vale is not enough.

Don't forget that Highgarden is currently under attack by sea and is focusing its military strength at KL and Margaery - and this after having fought one bloody war. They aren't operating at full strength.

Also, the Vale isn't planning to act alone.

[Ran]

Alexia,

Cite for where Tyrion calls Margaery "stunningly beautiful", or words to that effect? I can find him saying she looked lovely.

It's Cat who calls Margaery pretty, BTW, in ACoK. I don't think Margaery's supposed to be a stunning beauty -- that's more Loras's line.

[Alexia]

Alexia,

Cite for where Tyrion calls Margaery "stunningly beautiful", or words to that effect? I can find him saying she looked lovely.

I can't swear that he used those exact words (and I'm at work with no access to my books :P) but I did interpret it to mean the same thing. Plus, he compared her and Sansa and I think Sansa is supposed to be one of the great beauties of the book - and Tyrion thought Sansa was stunningly beautiful.

Doesn't Ned call her a doe-eyed beauty or something similar when he's looking at her portrait in AGOT?

It's Cat who calls Margaery pretty, BTW, in ACoK. I don't think Margaery's supposed to be a stunning beauty -- that's more Loras's line.

I'd forgotten about Cat. I'm open to being wrong on this score, of course, but she and Loras are supposed to look as much alike as Jaime and Cersei, no?

[Gaston de Foix]

Alexia,

Cite for where Tyrion calls Margaery "stunningly beautiful", or words to that effect? I can find him saying she looked lovely.

It's Cat who calls Margaery pretty, BTW, in ACoK. I don't think Margaery's supposed to be a stunning beauty -- that's more Loras's line.

Tyrion's appreciation of Margaery's beauty is likely to be in ASOS rather than anywhere else. And he calls her lovely in his POV which concerns Joffrey's wedding.

But I agree she isn't more beautiful than Cersei who is described even by Ned as "Her curling blond hair moved in the wind, and her eyes were green as the leaves of summer. It had been a long time since Ned Stark had seen her beauty, but he saw it now".

I would like to point out, that the prophecy regarding Cersei seems kind of misunderstood IMHO. It's a three part prophecy, and that quite a bit of it has come true is strong evidence that all of this prophecy will come true.

Let's break it down. Old hands at this board will roll their eyes at the obviousness of all I say, but what the heck.

The first question Cersei asks is when she will marry the prince(meaning Rhaegar). Never comes the answer, you will marry the King (meaning Robert). She persists, asking "I will be Queen though?" and the answer is "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear...” (AFFC)

So given what we know to have happened already, I take big chunks of information from this of the prophecy as predictions of future events.

1) Cersei will continue to be Queen of Westeros until the younger, more beautiful Queen comes along. So in terms of prediction, I think Cersei's life and status as Queen of Westeros is safe until Dany comes along. "Queen you shall be...until there comes another" gives us something more however in terms of timing. Dany will take everything from Cersei when she arrives or at least will begin the process immediately upon landing. This works to disprove the Margaery thesis because Margaery has already come to King's Landing and hasn't taken everything from Cersei, indeed she hasn't taken anything from her. The next thing I take from this line of prophecy is the "all that you hold dear" part. Clearly Cersei holds power dear, and her children dear. So I interpret this line to mean Dany will have one of Myrcella or Tommen killed. I believe it will be Myrcella for reasons I give below. The death of one of her children also makes sense because Cersei's power as Queen is derivative from the claim her children have to the throne of Westeros. She is the Dowager Queen, properly speaking.

I'm skipping over the number of children part of the prophecy because everything about that is clear. The next crucial part of the prophecy is:

“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

2) "Gold shall be their crowns" - suggests they shall all formally rule Westeros in turn. This suggests that Tommen will not continue to be King, and Myrcella will become Queen at some point although I don't think we are at that part of the story yet. "Gold their shrouds" - obviously means that each in turn will die, and they will all predecease Cersei.

3) "when your tears have drowned you"- I think that's entirely metaphorical. I don't think a close reading gives us any clues. The next part however revealing "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat". Well a few points here. First, consonant with my belief that Dany is the younger, more beautiful Queen, I think Tyrion is the Valonqar referred to here. The alternative prospect is obviously Jaime, and given the early mis-direction I've attributed to Martin I understand that point of view. Here's why I think it's wrong though. First of all, Jaime gives us a very good reason on his part for not killing Cersei,- Tommen will hate him. That remains true if any of his children are on the throne. No.2, as Tommen's Lord Commander, Jaime's loyalties are to the present regime, whatever his greivances against Cersei and his conquest of the Riverlands shows us that pretty clearly. Now the position might be different after their deaths; and that brings me to the second point. "The valonqar shall wrap his hands". Well Jaime only has one hand, and even if he bring his golden hand in play, wrapping his hands around her throat (plural) is a quality that's pretty hard for him, see for instance his difficulty holding a wine glass in AFFC.

Just a note about method; I believe, having read a good deal of Martin's work, that his work sustains the sort of close reading I have attempted, and that's partly why I enjoy it to the extent that I do. I should also add that my sense of the story, and of the style of his writing generally has played a role where choosing between two possible interpretations of this prophecy. But I do believe that I'm correct about everything I've said. Y'all take a shot at showing me how I am wrong.

[Lummel]

I wouldn't take the same approach to the prophecy.

In the spirit of 'the king is dead, long live the king' Cersei stopped being Queen when Robert died, at which point she became the Queen Mum. Once Margarey married Joffrey and then Tommen she became the Queen. OK we can regard her a dowager queen, but she will retain that role until she dies

I don't recall offhand if Joffrey's shroud was literally made of gold or even cloth of gold, possibly the meaning is figurative simply that they will have expensive funerals, or in a general sense that Cersei will live to see their deaths. Even if the golden crowns don't refer to the golden Lannister hair of the children it could still be argued that this condition has been met; Joffrey and Tommen have been crown and Myrcella was honoured as a Queen by Arianne and her gang in Dorne.

There are lots of candidates for the role of Valonqar, why limit ourselves to Tyrion and Jaime there are also Kevan and Loras who are younger brothers and on the scene. Does the prophecy mean she will be murdered by the younger brother? If it isn't meant to be understood literally then it could refer to somebody removing her from power, or imprisoning her rather than killing her.

Prophecys are tricky, doesn't one of the Maesters at the citadel tell us that? I don't see why this one should be any different.

[Ran]

Don't recall Tyrion comparing Sansa and Margaery. Yes, he thinks Sansa is very beautiful. Saying she's more beautiful than Margaery, however, would not mean Margaery herself is very beautiful. In any case, I've always taken her to be quite pretty, but not breathtakingly beautiful. Mileage clearly varies. :)

[Alexia]

Don't recall Tyrion comparing Sansa and Margaery. Yes, he thinks Sansa is very beautiful. Saying she's more beautiful than Margaery, however, would not mean Margaery herself is very beautiful. In any case, I've always taken her to be quite pretty, but not breathtakingly beautiful. Mileage clearly varies. :)

I'll pull up the exact quote for you when I get home tonight.

Off the top of my head, it's in the chapter after they are leaving Joffrey's wedding ceremony. He looks at Sansa and thinks: She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. He then proceeds to admire Sansa in the most objectifying way possible, but he wouldn't be Tyrion if he didn't do that. :P The implication for me, anyway, was always that he considered Margaery and Sansa to be equally beautiful, not even that Sansa was more beautiful than Margaery. I believe there's another, similar quote in the wedding chapters but I would have to look. This might be the quote that formed my supposition that she's a beauty.

That being said, I agree with the overall point that Margaery is probably not the queen come to cast Cersei down (Sansa or Dany, IMO) and she may or may not be more beautiful. Totally agree that mileage varies though.

[Ran]

Okay, found it. Pretty much that quote. In his next chapter, he's calling Sansa the most beautiful girl in the room. Anyways, I don't think it's a beauty pageant. Pretty, beautiful, whatever. They're good looking young women. ;)

[Alexia]

Okay, found it. Pretty much that quote. In his next chapter, he's calling Sansa the most beautiful girl in the room. Anyways, I don't think it's a beauty pageant. Pretty, beautiful, whatever. They're good looking young women. ;)

Haha, yeah, I agree. When you get into the whole thing of who is the most beautiful it really gets much more into personal taste than anything else. :P

[Gabriele]

Considering that beauty, to some extent, is in the eye of the beholder, and that the definition of 'queen' is a bit open to interpretation (Dany isn't technically a queen at this point), we could also add Jeyne Westerling to the mix. She was married to the King of the North, after all, and Cersei's fate does begin to go down about the time Robb marries.

Or, to have even more fun, whhat if Stannis' wife dies (one way or the other ;) ) and he marries Melisandre, would that not make her a queen as well?

Both scenarios would mean that Cersei has it coming already, and having the kids dying before her won't pose so much of a problem. Nothing dramatic like with Joffrey, just a fall off a horse at quintaine or something.

Just food for thought. I have a few suspicions about the prophesy meaning Dany because that's so obvious. :) Martin may surprise us here.