The "new" definition of Racism or

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Do I have to wave my 'I am a Jew' flag or someone has to pop in their 'I'm part Native American', 'I'm Hispanic' or 'I'm Asian' to be able to engage in debate on ethnic attitudes in this country?

You have to go back in time and not make that post about 'omg the dirty blacks are thieves and I want to use racial slurs but I'm not racist so I won't'.

Failing that, you have shut the fuck up. Failing that, you have to be prepared to be a laughingstock.

[IheartTesla]

I remember dating a black girl a few years ago, and visiting her family for the first time. I got quite a few odd looks from her parents. They seemed rather surprised about me, and unsure.

They already made a movie about this, Ashton.

[Trencher]

Here is the audio of Beck explaining why he said what he did.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/28574/

[Mad Monkey]

This is a little petulant, but could you please summarize what he said? I don't think I'll be able to sleep at night if I spent 5 minutes listening to Glenn Beck on the Internet, while there are people starving to death in Queens.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

They already made a movie about this, Ashton.

True. Here is a segment of the hell i went through.

[aghrivaine]

I always love hearing Sword's point of view on stuff like this. Sometimes he seems like a wise elder, sometimes he seems like a crazy old coot (vis. his spying on his daughters!) - but it's always interesting. Especially coming from a guy who did something few black men did back before it was ok; which is to say, be a Ranger.

(Also, Sword - get help. You should be fat dumb and happy by now. Lord knows I am, if I got called up to fight, I'd be a far greater menace to myself than to any enemy.)

I've been thinking about how Beck and Limbaugh are quick to accuse people of color of being racists, and I think it has to do with rhetorical power, and not particularly their own racism. I'll give both of them credit for being clever enough not to be overtly racist; certainly Limbaugh has crossed the line and suffered for it sometimes. His comments about Donovan McNabb's race got him fired from football commentating, after all.

Here is what I suspect - throughout their careers Limbaugh and Beck (and other conservative white talking heads) have been constrained from making a lot of arguments or saying a lot of things because it would be racially insensitive. They know, on some deep lizardy level (that's the level where Stego lives) that they can't mouth off about race because it will give their opponents way too much power to discredit the rest of their arguments. Fundamentally they are professionally making an argument - one in favor of various facets of conservative ideology. Anything that undermines their ability to make that argument also undermines their rhetorical power - which also equates to career success.

But to make it even more unfair (in their minds, on that lizardy level) - their opponents, or not really all liberals but especially liberals of a minority - are not so constrained. THEY can talk about race, and raise race as an issue. This gives them a rhetorical advantage in making the argument, one that guys like Beck and Limbaugh have been bumping up against forever and ever. Minorities can talk about race, but if white guys - especially conservative white guys - talk about race, they are racists. On the face of it, this isn't fair ...but of course it's a more complex issue than that, which Sword and others have made mention of here. But the complexity of the issue doesn't make it any less galling for Limbaugh and Beck - so they are only too happy to shift the focus of the debate to not be about issues of race...but rather to be about the *rhetoric* of issues of race. They deflect substantive discussion by accusing their opponents of the same thing that has stymied them forever...thus taking away that rhetorical leverage-point that minority liberals had. When they "level" the playing field in this regard, they give themselves a vast advantage, since NOT discussing race greatly favors the majority.

So I'm just asking folks - conservative and liberals - to pay attention to the actual issues of race, and not be distracted by people trying to make the discussion about the discussion itself. Race and racism are very much an issue in America, if they weren't, no one would have said anything about Obama being the first black president - he'd just be a president like any other. Things are getting, I think - but they're getting better because guys like Sword are speaking up about genuine issues that need to be addressed. Maybe Prof. Gates is wrong, or maybe he's right - but he's certainly right to raise the issue for discussion. The worst thing he could have done is be silent, as Beck or Limbaugh would have him be. Make your judgment as your reason and conscience dictate, but please, don't dismiss all matters of race out of hand before you think it over for yourself.

[Ocean of Notions]

You know what I'm sick of? People telling me that racism in the US is dead (mostly comes from white people). It sure as fuck isn't. It's just not as prominent as it used to be, which makes it rather dangerous in its own way. Sure, a person with darker skin probably wouldn't be lynched by an angry mob just for being born, but it does mean that plenty of people (esp. the people of the race of former oppressors) think that the battle is over and you're just being uppity.

Growing up in a rather racially homogenous area of the United States (Nebraska: how white can you get?), I actually spent the first portion of my life rather ignorant of racial issues. It wasn't until I got older, understood more, looked back and realised just how many racial issues I had actually dealt with, or rather were thrown at me. I grew up wanting to fit in and tried my best to mentally shove reality into the mold I wanted it to. I didn't understand race then, and never ever thought I was a victim of racial prejudices or bigotry. Now I know that it never was the case and it still isn't.

For the Americans, remember this rhyme from elementary school? "Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these." I won't bother describing the rude hand gestures while repeating parts of the rhyme. I remember a little boy, whom I didn't even speak to often, running up to me, calling me out from a group of people to repeat to me this rhyme. Everyone laughed and thought it was funny. Me without realising exactly what the little poem actually meant or insinuated laughed with them. I'd even go around repeating these words along with the other children.

When I was in middle school, struggling to fit in because I was a rather awkward child, I got made fun of quite often. On a certain occasion, a kid came up to me and said, "Is that soy sauce I smell?" He then made a nasty face and all his friends laughed. Again, I laughed with them, trying my best to not offend anyone when it should have me who was offended. A couple of my friends told a school teacher, who questioned the bully. The bullies friends then cornered me and wondered why I had tattled. Being the coward that I was, I told them that I didn't tattle and blamed it on those friends of mine (what a lousy thing to do).

To this day, I think back and feel shame. Not only do I feel shame for reacting the way I did - thinking that nothing was wrong - but for the longest time, I actually felt shame that those things even happened to me, as if it was somehow my fault. No, I don't think that all those children in my elementary school were racist or even grew up to be racists. And I even doubt that that boy who asked that insulting question was and is a racist. I doubt that any of them even understood, especially at that time, the significance of what they were saying. But it still remains that what they said are incredibly racist and not okay. Even if the perpetrators didn't quite understand all the implications of their words, it doesn't negate that their words were racially hateful. And since these are children, where are they getting these words? Children, who don't understand race, don't think of this stuff on their own.

I'm not saying that no Whites in the US ever feel racial prejudices against them, but I doubt many ever feel it on the same levels most minorities do. When the dominant culture/dominant race that is present in your current society is not your own, but are of the people who attempt to bring you down it can be quite an overwhelming feeling, especially if you've been experiencing it your entire life.

(Btw, my stories come from the mid 90s - only a short while ago.)

[Ocean of Notions]

And you know what I find interesting? Racist people get really pissed off when you point out their racism. I have a friend (used to be pretty good, but I'm getting kinda pissed off with his bigotry) who definitely has issues with Muslims/people of Middle East and Central/South Asia), but you can't tell him that. He once used a racial slur to describe them and another friend of mine called him out. At first, he didn't think he did anything wrong at all. Then he became incredibly offended and angry. I also think this friend has issues with other races, such as Blacks, but don't tell him that! Apparently, Asians are a non-offensive race (that and I've been here long enough to become pretty Americanised) so I'm all right. :rolleyes:

What racists hate more than the race they hate? Being called a racist, it seems.

[Kat]

For the Americans, remember this rhyme from elementary school? "Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these." I won't bother describing the rude hand gestures while repeating parts of the rhyme. I remember a little boy, whom I didn't even speak to often, running up to me, calling me out from a group of people to repeat to me this rhyme. Everyone laughed and thought it was funny. Me without realising exactly what the little poem actually meant or insinuated laughed with them. I'd even go around repeating these words along with the other children.

...

And since these are children, where are they getting these words? Children, who don't understand race, don't think of this stuff on their own.

Probably from their childhood idols, who no one ever told off for their racist gestures. :thumbsdown:

[DanteGabriel]

I think either sword or Dante should switch sides on this debate in the spirit of being fair.

Well I don't know what side I could argue with that would be relevant to what tempra's been saying, but I'll present a way to explain away Sword's numerous cases of being treated suspiciously against the comparatively lower number of reported cases of anti-white oppression:

The percentage of white people who hate black people is no higher than the percentage of black people who hate white people. It's just that the 67% of white people are going to have higher raw numbers of racists out there to oppress the heavily outnumbered 11% of blacks.

[alguien]

Why do so many people think whites never experience any sort of racist ('prejudice' would be so much more accurate in this thread) behavior or actions? Ever. Are we in some contest or something? Do I have to wave my 'I am a Jew' flag or someone has to pop in their 'I'm part Native American', 'I'm Hispanic' or 'I'm Asian' to be able to engage in debate on ethnic attitudes in this country? Or the world? We've all seen it and were not so dumb that we can't grasp what it is and what it feels like or even what it would feel like if someone hasn't ever experienced it. Do I have to wave my 'Racism is pretty fucking prevalent in Yemen to Jewish people so I understand' to be able to jump in? Just because Sword is black and he says he has experienced this painful and hurtful discrimination... every single day of his life, doesn't make him an authority on racism or prejudical behavior. He needs to give 'white' people more credit than he does and you need to stop assuming that you know white people have piped in without having the wealth of knowledge you possess on the matter.

Oh for fuck's sake. That wasn't my point at all. Jesus I wish EHK were still around. First of all, are we in Yemen right now? No, we're talking about the US. White people are the fucking majority. Always have been. This isn't rocket science. Have you been profiled, numerous times in the US because you were white, Jewish, or whatever?

Sword, and many others, have been racially profiled. Many times. Its extremely common in the US. So when someone who's experienced that shit numerous times all of sudden suspects it in a case where it is reasonable to do so, all of sudden they're the racists oppressing the poor white police officers?

Please. This kind of approach, whether being deliberately disingenuous or actually born out of sincere lack of understanding, just makes me want to scream.

ETA: and I wish I could say this with the eloquence and cool-headedness of aghrivaine

Also ETA: toned down at moderator's request. Apologies.

[Annelise]

Good stuff in that post, aghrivaine.

What racists hate more than the race they hate? Being called a racist, it seems.

That's very true, in my experience. Well I don't know about hating being called a racist more than the race they hate, but I agree racists don't like to be called as much.

[Lord O' Bones]

The grossest thing somebody threw was a used condom. I was 10 when that happened. My little brother was with me, and he actually picked it up and slung it back before I could stop him. Hit the front window of another car, and before they could stop and get out, we booked it.

Man, can you imagine being that guy? Just driving down the road, about to pass two little kids walking, and what the? ...is that a, a used condom!?

Anyway, Sword may seem like he's out looking for discrimination, but we don't know that. Besides, never has 'just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean there not out to get you' ever been more true.

You don't need a single racist present to experience racial discrimination. In my time in Japan, far more irritating to me were the generally lovely and nice people who were obviously discomfitted by my presence, when given the chance to know me, invariably began to react to my arrival with heartfelt greetings and smiles. It sucked to know that every time I moved into a new neighborhood I would have to go through that process again. Were they racists? I don't think so.

Now, that guy on the train that said those awful things about me becuase he didn't know I could understand him? Racist. But you know what, fuck him. He's the one upset by my mere presence; he gets to be bitter, and I get to continue corrupting their women (9 times out of 10, that's what those bastards were upset about.)

I feel like this thread is trying to flip a coin and land it on it's edge, but it keeps coming up heads or tails every time.

[Shryke]

And since these are children, where are they getting these words? Children, who don't understand race, don't think of this stuff on their own.

The question usually isn't "Where did they get it from?". Kids pick up shit from all over the place, including other kids.

The question is "Do they know WTF they are even saying?". Cause sometimes they do (like in your case) and sometimes they are just saying shit cause they know it's bad, but don't know wtf it means.

I remember we ran around in Grade .... 6 I think it was, calling each other "Chinks!" all the time. There were no Asians in my grade. Someone picked up th word from somewhere, and it spread around, but no one actually knew wtf it meant. I mean, we also called each other "Masturbators!".

Sometimes kids just hear the word, know it's bad because of the way adults say it, and use it without knowing shit about what it actually means.

And sometimes they know exactly the right context to use it in, but still aren't exactly aware of it's implications. Which doesn't seem bad at first glance, but years of this often build up into people spouting racist shit because it's acceptable among their piers.

Kids using nasty words is complicated.

[Horza]

Good stuff in that post, aghrivaine.

That's very true, in my experience. Well I don't know about hating being called a racist more than the race they hate, but I agree racists don't like to be called as much.

Of course they hate it, they just went out of the way to assure you they weren't racist with "I'm not racist but..."

[Ocean of Notions]

Hate to say it, but most Jews pass as "white", therefore they tend to be treated as such.

I was going to throw something in my original post about the current generation of white Americans having inherited white privilege, but I thought that might be too much... so... apparently I left it for this post. Again, hate to say it, but white people have totally inherited this thing called white privilege. Before you tell me it doesn't exist, let me explain. White is the majority race and has been the majority race of our country for quite some time. More importantly, the "white" (more or less Western European, heavily Anglicised) culture is also the dominant culture within our society and the dominant culture in power. Insitutionalised racism has also existed for a long time within this country, actively keeping many racial (and at times ethnic) minorities disenfranchised, undereducated and economically oppressed. Even if our current society isn't oppressive like its predecessors, it's still built upon this foundation of ignorance and bigotry (both politically and societally enforced and reinforced). I'm not saying that this generation of white people are mostly racists - in fact, a good portion aren't. I'm saying that it's going to take quite some time and quite some work (on both sides) to make racism go away. Perhaps, it may never fully go away. Who knows.

As for a more recent anecdote in "racism", a coworker of mine - who happens to be Kenyan - was on a project a couple of years ago. The crew went out for lunch at a local pub. As soon as the crew walked in, the bar tender looked up and said, "You guys can stay, but we don't serve his kind." Needless to say, the entire crew chose somewhere else to have lunch. This happened in a small college city (not town, but big enough to be a city) in Upstate New York.

[Shryke]

To be fair, it was upstate New York.

[Ocean of Notions]

To be fair, it was upstate New York.

It's not like the college city isn't racially diverse at all! But at the same time, when you drove about 15 minutes outside city limits into the hills, one could find quite a few houses with Confederate flags painted on their walls. It was a little scary when this minority drove those roads alone at night.

In response to various responses to my first post, it really says a lot about how deeply racism has permeated our society if children can so nonchalantly spout such hate speech. The kid in grade school who ran up to me, specifically, and repeated that awful rhyme obviously knew enough to direct that little poem at one of the only (if not the only - don't quite remember) East Asian in the entire school. And what kills me about that incident from middle school is that only two people (the friends who told the teacher) thought that the situation was clearly wrong enough for reprimand. Most people either thought it was no big deal or there wasn't anything wrong with it at all. His posse of friends actually confronted me and acted as if I was in the wrong and should be the one apologising. Even just thinking about that incident makes me both embarrassed and angry all over again and it was years ago.

[Annelise]

Of course they hate it, they just went out of the way to assure you they weren't racist with "I'm not racist but..."

That is a popular precursor. I've also heard that living in x or working at y made them racist - so it's that race's own fault, not theirs.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Hate to say it, but most Jews pass as "white", therefore they tend to be treated as such.

I was going to throw something in my original post about the current generation of white Americans having inherited white privilege, but I thought that might be too much... so... apparently I left it for this post. Again, hate to say it, but white people have totally inherited this thing called white privilege. Before you tell me it doesn't exist, let me explain. White is the majority race and has been the majority race of our country for quite some time. More importantly, the "white" (more or less Western European, heavily Anglicised) culture is also the dominant culture within our society and the dominant culture in power. Insitutionalised racism has also existed for a long time within this country, actively keeping many racial (and at times ethnic) minorities disenfranchised, undereducated and economically oppressed. Even if our current society isn't oppressive like its predecessors, it's still built upon this foundation of ignorance and bigotry (both politically and societally enforced and reinforced). I'm not saying that this generation of white people are mostly racists - in fact, a good portion aren't. I'm saying that it's going to take quite some time and quite some work (on both sides) to make racism go away. Perhaps, it may never fully go away. Who knows.

As for a more recent anecdote in "racism", a coworker of mine - who happens to be Kenyan - was on a project a couple of years ago. The crew went out for lunch at a local pub. As soon as the crew walked in, the bar tender looked up and said, "You guys can stay, but we don't serve his kind." Needless to say, the entire crew chose somewhere else to have lunch. This happened in a small college city (not town, but big enough to be a city) in Upstate New York.

How are you going to 'make it go away'? Its never going to happen. You can't 'outlaw racism'. It's an ideology, and will always exist among the lower IQ bracket while our societies have differences in appearance. I don't understand what a minority expects 'white people' to do about white racists. So long as they don't break the law, we can't touch them. We aren't responsible for their actions, and insinuating we are is akin to that 'Eurabia' bullcrap.

To put it simply, I DON'T CARE about Professor Gates getting arrested. I DONT CARE about how a girl asked Sword if he needed any help while in a bookstore. Why? Because they are miniscule events, which have no influence on me, have nothing to do with me, and have nothing to do with my skin colour. I refuse to be responsible for the 1% of America who happen to be extremely stupid and deluded individuals. Thats why i'm tired of reading about this in the news. Lets talk about something MORE IMPORTANT.