Your favorite knight of the Kingsguard?

[Baratheon_bastard]

Just thought it'd be a fun topic. My rundown (no particular order, except my favorite is last):

Ser Barristan Selmy - Basically the closest we see of the living KG to a true knight. However, when we see him, he is old, arguably a traitor, and confused about what his true purpose as a knight is. He kinda wears on me a bit, though hopefully he'll redeem himself as an awesome adviser to Dany.

Ser Jaime Lannister - A little hard to judge for this question, since we know so much about him through his PoVs. An obviously conflicted person as the story unfolds, and even though he's slowly inching closer to 'true knight' status, he's doesn't win my vote for favorite KG knight.

Ser Preston Greenfield - I'm mostly just mentioning him because he was a living KG for part of the story, but there's so little we know about him that he obviously isn't my favorite.

Ser Meryn Trant - An interesting character, one of the few KG to be there the entire time. Apparently a decent enough warrior and loyal to the crown, though he seems to be lacking in any real morals. If this character was exactly the same but a sellsword instead of a KG knight, I'd completely buy it.

Ser Mandon Moore - The most sociopathic member of the KG for sure, never trusted this dude and his 'dead eyes'. Cheered when Podrick killed him, that's for sure.

Ser Boros Blount - I like to consider him the 'comic relief' of the KG, especially when Jaime names him the official food-taster for Tommen. Not even close to my idea of a knight.

Ser Osmund Kettleblack - Heh, another joke of a knight that thinks with his libido more than anything else. Hate him and his brothers.

Ser Balon Swann - One of the more 'normal' members of the KG. Has a decent amount of honor and loyalty, while sticking to his own moral code. A good fighter AFAIK, and one of the more decent human beings in all of Westeros.

Ser Sandor Clegane - A lot of people's favorite character, and far more conflicted than Jaime could ever hope to be. He almost won as my favorite KG knight just because of how complex and layered his character, but I'm hesitant to make him #1 until his identity as the grave-digger can be confirmed or not. He's one of my favorite characters to be sure, but as far as the KG, probably not - especially since he didn't last long in it.

And so, my favorite KG member...

Ser Arys Oakheart, the Soiled Knight. I admit, I was a bit annoyed with his inner conflict when he was humping Arianne, but his charge into death against Hotah and his archers was just plain unexpected to me, and the definition of tragic - he wanted death to escape the 'trap' of honor, which is something I can understand after seeing all these other characters and their twisted definitions of honor.

[Fireball07]

Ser Sandor Clegane????

What is this????

You also forgot Loras Tyrell

[Baratheon_bastard]

What is what? He was an anointed knight, wasn't he?

Oh yeah, I did forget Loras. Well I don't like him, haha.

[SamTheSlayer]

Hands down, Barristan The Bold. The only one with any semblance of honor, duty and courage. Jaime maybe later on in the story. Loras is all about glory. The other ones don't even deserve to be knights let alone the Kingsguard.

[Fireball07]

From 11th to 1st

11. Loras Tyrell- I really don't like him at all. He is kind of like Jaime in the first book, but I don't think he has half the skill at arms, sword in particular. Jousting is great in tourneys but in real battles it is little or no use. I hate his arrogance and him in general.

10. Preston Greenfield- I don't hate him, just we have very little information about him.

9. Boros Blount- He's basically useless at this stage, and I'd love to see him killed. The one good thing about him is that he could end up getting Cersei killed.

8. Osmund Kettleblack- Another person that's easy to hate. Skill-at-arms makes it easier to like someone, and again Kettleblack is too cocky for what he's really worth.

7. Meryn Trant- Not that much information about him apart from he's past his best and simply doesn't care about anyone really. Better than Blount at fighting, but not a nicer personality. Wouldn't be surprised if he's the sole KG of the current one left at the end.

6. Arys Oakheart- Struck me as a bit of an idiot really. DId nothing to make me like him, apart from proving how badass Hotah is.

5. Barristan Selmy- Didn't really care for him as a KG, but now that he's with Dany we get to see him clearly. We hear about his feats continuosly, he is still probably one of the best fighters in the world, despite his age. And his stories about the past (Aerys, Jaehaerys and Rhaegar etc.) give crucial insight into the world. The first of the KG I actually like.

4. Mandon Moore- Yeah, I like him. Always seemed dangerous, I always liked the "dead eyes" description. If he had killed Tyrion I mightn't have liked as much but he was always a bit of a mystery and his skill was apparently much more than Blount, Trant and even Oakheart.

3. Balon Swann- Well what can you say, he's almost the perfect knight. Skilled with numerous weapons, he's brave, he's honourable and loyal. He doesn't lie, and he seems to stick up for what is right. Sansa would be better off having him as the basis of the perfect knight rather than Loras Tyrell.

2. Jaime Lannister- He mightn't be the best guy, but his POVs are fantastic, I love his character, the insight that he provides into numerous different characters is great. The way he deals with people like Red Ronnet, Osmund Kettleblack and Ryman Frey really makes him someone to admire. He was also hugely skilled, one of the top 3 fighters in Westeros without a doubt. And he's become a much better person since losing his hand that I actually feel sorry for him having lost it.

1. Sandor Clegane- The one and only for first place. My second favourite character, and by far my favourite KG. I hate the way that he's getting blamed for Rorge's atrocities at Saltpans because whatever about how hard he was, Sandor was never cruel. Essentially he was a good person, he obeyed orders, and while he might have murdered people, he was never evil like Joffrey, Vargo Hoat or his brother. Another exceptionally skilled swordsman, his fear of fire and many faults just make him more realistic to the reader and he is definitely one of the most complex characters. His blunt manner and contempt of most knights is something I like as well as his brutal efficiency in battle, particularly when he killed Polliver and had the Tickler on the back foot.

[Fireball07]

What is what? He was an anointed knight, wasn't he?

Are you being serious?

[Adz of CCAA]

IIRC Sandor Clegane was never an anointed knight, he had only disdain for them. And he wasn't/isn't of the Kingsguard. Or was/is he? :huh:

[The hairy bear]

Sandor wasn't a knight and had a disdain for them. But he entered the kingsguard without being a knight in an unprecedented move. He filled the gap left when Barristan left.

ETA: BTW, my favourite is Balon Swann by far. Anyone who has knelt to an usurper, fleed during battle, beaten a naked girl, or specially killed the king shouldn't even enter into the lists.

[Fireball07]

IIRC Sandor Clegane was never an anointed knight, he had only disdain for them. And he wasn't/isn't of the Kingsguard. Or was/is he? :huh:

He was in the KG, but isn't anymore having been replaced by Loras Tyrell after the Battle of the Blackwater.

[Adz of CCAA]

Sandor wasn't a knight and had a disdain for them. But he entered the kingsguard without being a knight in an unprecedented move. He filled the gap left when Barristan left.

He was in the KG, but isn't anymore having been replaced by Loras Tyrell after the Battle of the Blackwater.

Ah, thank you both. :)

Completely forgot about that! :leaving:

It IS time for a reread. :read:

ETA

On topic:

My favourite KG is Jaime. Followed by Sandor (now that I again know that he belonged ;)) and, I am afraid, Loras. ;)

I like Barristan the Bold, too, as he really seems to be the epitome of a knight. :)

[Baratheon_bastard]

Are you being serious?

I know he obviously had a disdain for knights, I guess I just forgot that Joff didn't knight him when he entered the KG (in my wrong memory it was a forced knighting).

[Fireball07]

I know he obviously had a disdain for knights, I guess I just forgot that Joff didn't knight him when he entered the KG (in my wrong memory it was a forced knighting).

They were trying to force knight him, but he said he'd kill anyone that tried. And everyone was scared of him because he's about twice the swordsman of the best of them.

He hated knights. With a passion.

[Jon Targaryen]

Barristan Selmy would be high up there but he gets minus points for hanging around with Robert and Jaime for so long. He didn't know Viserys was dead when he ditched KL so he was going after him. News-flash: Viserys had been struggling to rule the Seven Kingdoms for years. As Barristan himself says, if they hadn't booted his butt out of there he would still be there. But at least he went to Dany and is now advising and guarding her.

Balon Swann is a good man, he stood tall for Tyrion, he's a good knight and an excellent archer (iirc), but he's not well-rounded enough for my taste. Too goody-goody. Iirc, he made a joke about how many kings there were in the realm. As Tyrion thought when Varys told him, big deal. If GRRM gives him more texture he might go up.

Jaime Lannister is certainly not goody-goody. Killing his king, throwing a kid off a high balcony, screwing the king's wife - baby done some bad, bad things. He is kind of tragic too, thrust into a situation he was too young and inexperienced to deal with. He wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne and turned into the Smiling Knight. And he has done some good. Saving Brienne more than twice and trying to do something with the KG. Though the last is mostly just intent and I don't really care too much what people intend. He also saved KL from the inferno though he did it sloppily, left the danger there, and I'm just not entirely convinced his action wasn't motivated in large part by self-preservation. He asks Catelyn, "You think I fear death?" My answer: well, yes, at least a bit. Still, that just makes him a better character. Definitely not my favorite person but a GREAT character. Only not my favorite KG because I like my favorite more.

Loras Tyrell was just supreme skill and arrogance for most of the series. His young love for Renly was touching but that's about all except well-deserved hubris. When he volunteered to storm Dragonstone however, he took it to another level. It was only to protect his family's lands and people, not to help the King, but it was still a noble motive. And he's not stupid; he may believe he's the best but he also must realize the danger. When he kneeled before Cersei to beg for the command, that was his finest hour. I guess that's part of the reason I don't want the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy Theory to be true.

Then there is Sandor Clegane, my favorite. I love his brutally honest take on the world. His talk with Sansa before the Battle of the Blackwater ("I'm honest. It's the world that's awful) was good and his speech to the BWB was rolling on the floor laughing my ass off high-larry-us (I was never a fan of the BWB). He has some real emotional scars; you just have to look at and know the story behind his physical ones. And that led to him never trying to be a knight. I love it how he doesn't get knighted when he joins the KG, almost as if part of the reason he joined was to stick it to the people that loved knights. LOL. That's just my perception though. But the quote is great.

Boros: The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights.

Sandor: Until now.

Heh. The thawing impact of Sansa is great to watch and the song scene has a haunting beauty. He did kill Mycah but that was off Joffrey's word and was his duty. That doesn't make it right but Sandor doesn't pretend to be right and I can admire that where I can't really say the same for Jaime, even if it's mostly just in Jaime's mind (not his talk) that he feels it's "the finest act I've ever done."

ETA: Forgot the rest of em, lol. They don't register much for me.

[Kingslayer]

Jaime, followed by Sandor. Barristan is okay, too, but the rest are trash.

his speech to the BWB was rolling on the floor laughing my ass off high-larry-us (I was never a fan of the BWB).

:agree: They're a pack of scumbags who make themselves feel better about their thievery by providing scraps of paper in return. They lie like knights do, though. ;)

[Markus]

Fireball07,

Loras Tyrell- I really don't like him at all. He is kind of like Jaime in the first book, but I don't think he has half the skill at arms, sword in particular. Jousting is great in tourneys but in real battles it is little or no use.

Loras has clearly distinguished himself in battles. GRRM himself has said that Loras "fought gloriously" on the Blackwater and he also fought impressively when Dragonstone was taken.

As to his swordsmanship in particular, we have Hyle Hunt -- who has trained against Brienne and so presumably has a good grasp of Brienne's skill with a sword -- not believing that Brienne could kill Robar Royce because Royce was "twice the swordsman" Brienne is, whereas he had no such doubts about Loras' ability in this regard.

Loras mayn't be as good a swordsman as his brother Garlan but when he is anywhere near twice as good as Brienne then he is still a superb swordsman.

Sandor Clegane- I hate the way that he's getting blamed for Rorge's atrocities at Saltpans because whatever about how hard he was, Sandor was never cruel. Essentially he was a good person, he obeyed orders, and while he might have murdered people, he was never evil like Joffrey, Vargo Hoat or his brother.

Sandor is a better person than the ones you compare him to and it's in his favour that he doesn't subsribe to the hypocrisy of claiming to be a knight when he doesn't act knightly at all. Neither of which makes him a good person though. Sandor was a butcher of men, women and children. They were all meat to him. His own words. He was in some ways just as brutal as his brother Gregor.

Does Sandor mostly following orders justify his actions on a moral level? I don't think so. A "good person" would simply find a lord who wouldn't give orders which led to the butcher of women and children.

One can understand where Sandor is probably coming from. When he was a small child he was horribly brutalized by his own brother and then cruelly disillusioned when neither his father nor those who represented an honorable ideal like Rhaegar punished Gregor for his various crimes but actually knighted him. Sandor's conclusions were that knighthood was a sham and that honour was just an empty word. To deal with these conclusions, his fear of Gregor and his feeling of vulnerability he fled his brother and prepared himself as good as he could so that he could always rely on his own martial abilities to defend himself because others apparently wouldn't.

Unfortunately, his experiences also turned Sandor into the Hound, a persona who had no moral objections to murder and killing even of women and children. In fact, one feels that the Hound even enjoyed all the killing because in those moments he felt totally in control and not vulnerable or afraid. And if there was some part of Sandor's personality which was opposed or even horrified at what he had become -- a lesser version of Gregor without the hypocrisy -- then this part was numbed with alcohol.

Understanding Sandor or feeling sorry for him to some degree still don't turn him into a good person though. Now that he has left behind the Hound persona Sandor may perhaps become one or at least approach one.

[DomDayne]

Has to be Sandor... He's my second or third favorite character, and by far the best of the Kingsguard... IMO he's probably the most knight-worthy character out of them all (excepting Barristan the Bold) He may not rush in to save the maids, not in the sense that Tyrion did when Joff was punishing Sansa for Robb killing Ser Stafford, or even Ser Dontos in the same scene (though I guess he did rush to save Loras the Maid during the Hands tourney :D) but he is always "not unkind" to her, even within his harsh orders...

He helps Arya get back to her family at Riverrun (though it didn't do much) and saved her from running in a getting herself killed. He helped her fight against Gregor's men at the inn...

[Silverstar]

He murdered a young boy in cold blood and thought it was funny ...

[The hairy bear]

He helps Arya get back to her family at Riverrun (though it didn't do much) and saved her from running in a getting herself killed. He helped her fight against Gregor's men at the inn...

Come on! He had kidnapped her and pretended to collect a ransom! An in the inn, Gregor's men were after Sandor, not Arya! :D

I frankly can't see how people consider Sandor a good member of the KG. Loras Tyrell has never fleed during a battle, or murdered an eight year old kid (and joked about it). His prowess in battle is at least comparable to the Hound's. He is loved by the commons, and cares for them. However, he is disminished and Sandor is praised just because his cynism makes him fun to read.

Sandor should have never enter the kingsguard, period. If you dislike how knights are beheaving nowadays, you should try to lead by example. Get knighted, enter the kingsguard, and show everyone what a true knight should be. On teh other hand, Sandor despises the false knights while beheaving just as they do.:tantrum:

[DomDayne]

He murdered a young boy in cold blood and thought it was funny ...

He followed an order from his King, and killed a common boy who attacked the heir to the Iron Throne, and a person who he had sworn to protect with his life...

On the other hand he didn't strip a young girl naked in the middle of a practice yard punch her in the stomach, beat her with the flat of his sword, and slink away from the threats of a lowly sellsword???

Sorry, no comparison for me here...

[Silverstar]

He still laughed about it, after chopping him in half.

I'm not saying it negates everything else he does. I'm just pointing out that Sandor isn't a beacon of goodness, as so many people seem to like to portray him as :P