Your favorite knight of the Kingsguard?

[King Nobody]

ETA: BTW, my favourite is Balon Swann by far. Anyone who has knelt to an usurper, fleed during battle, beaten a naked girl, or specially killed the king shouldn't even enter into the lists.

Every one of the Kingsguard who has been in the books from the start of AGoT has knelt to a usurper.

He followed an order from his King, and killed a common boy who attacked the heir to the Iron Throne, and a person who he had sworn to protect with his life...

On the other hand he didn't strip a young girl naked in the middle of a practice yard punch her in the stomach, beat her with the flat of his sword, and slink away from the threats of a lowly sellsword???

Sorry, no comparison for me here...

No comparison? So are you saying ser Boros wasn't following orders when he beat Sansa? Did Joffrey not order him to do it? You can't say that Sandor was just following orders then attack the rest of the Kingsguard for doing the exact same thing, following orders. And do you really count assault as a greater offense than murder? And IIRC, Mycah never even attacked Joffrey, Arya did.

[DomDayne]

He still laughed about it, after chopping him in half.

I'm not saying it negates everything else he does. I'm just pointing out that Sandor isn't a beacon of goodness, as so many people seem to like to portray him as :P

I never meant to portray him as the perfect knight... I know he's far from it. I merely said that IMO he is the most KNight-worthy person out of Kingsguard... a little ironic that he is the only un -annoited one of them...

With regards to the laughing at Mycah thing... I think at that time he was still just the uncaring Dog of Joff, but what I think changed him was him meeting Sansa.

[The hairy bear]

He followed an order from his King, and killed a common boy who attacked the heir to the Iron Throne, and a person who he had sworn to protect with his life...

On the other hand he didn't strip a young girl naked in the middle of a practice yard punch her in the stomach, beat her with the flat of his sword, and slink away from the threats of a lowly sellsword???

Sorry, no comparison for me here...

As you say, no comparison:

Boros beated a twelve years old girl.

Sandor killed an ten years old boy.

Boros followed an order from the King, the ultimate power in the realm.

Sandor followed an order from the King's Heir. The order could have been reversed by the King, the Hand, or anyone in the Small Council at least. And it's debatable that the position of being the King's Heir alone wntitles to order death sentences.

Boros never showed any sign of having fun while beating Sansa.

Sandor said "He run, but not very fast", and laughed.

Besides, Sansa was guilty of what she was being accused of (being a sister to a traitor, and wishing Joffrey's death), while Micah had never atacked Joffrey.

[DomDayne]

Boros beated a twelve years old girl.

Sandor killed an ten years old boy.

Touche :)

As far as I remember the guys sent out to catch Mycah weren't ordered to kill him but bring him back... but when Sandor found him he ran. Also, no one at this point knew that Mycah didn't attack Joffery, threaten his life, and aid the attack with a wild Direwolf.

Boros followed an order from the King, and order from the Kings Hand, with the King present, and was frightened by a mere sellsword. Seems to me like he wasn't following the King but the fear of what the other KG would do to him (a full grown man, rather than a 12 year old girl, and Joffery's betrothed) if he didn't...

And as a said in a later post at this point I think Sandor was as rabid as any wildling, but it was meeting and knowing Sansa that made him change

[Markus]

As to the question who are/were the best knights of the Kingsguard, I would argue that there are two primary criteria knights have to be measured against:

1. Martial prowess, in particular skill-at-arms and horsemanship
   
   
2. Representing respective upholding chivalric resp. knightly virtues which can include faith, courage, loyalty, honour, justice, mercy, generosity, nobility, hope, strength, humility, prudence, temperance, fortitude, compassion, courtesy, devotion, purity, peace and endurance
   

As far as the first criterion is concerned, Loras Tyrell, Arys Oakheart, Barristan Selmy, Mandon Moore, Balon Swann, Jaime Lannister and Sandor Clegane (who isn't actually a knight) could probably be regarded as good or great knights.

With regard to the second criterion, I'm not sure there is anybody who doesn't fail at least once.

Selmy may be the closest to the ideal and may actually pass when one grants his desertion of Dany and Viserys and subsequent service to Robert may have been justified or at least arguable.

Balon Swann may also pass. Though one may argue that it doesn't speak in his favour that he took the Lannister side in the war. Still, he may simply believe that his duty lay with Joffrey and now Tommen as Robert's heirs.

Loras Tyrell suffers from his killing outburst against Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy and probably failed the purity aspect while he was sworn to Renly. His trick against Gregor at the tourney of the hand was also more clever than honorable and he is certainly not humble. Otherwise he seems to be a fine example of chivalry though.

Arys Oakheart, although less than humble, had some slight early promise despite Varys' suspicions but his actions in Dorne (sex with Arianne and crowning Myrcella) count against him.

It's not really much known about Preston Greenfield but he was among those who fully hit Sansa and Varys had no confidence in his loyalty either.

The rest of the KGs can't be described as upholding the chivalric ideal for more or less apparent reasons. Though in Sandor's case it has to be said that he doesn't claim to be a knight upholding chivalric values. While Jaime is presently reforming himself.

When the two criterions are taken together, the best knight of the Kingsguard is arguably Selmy ahead of Balon Swann and Loras.

[Guest Other-in-law]

It's not really much known about Preston Greenfield but he was among those who fully hit Sansa and Varys had no confidence in his loyalty either.

Greenfield also carried on an adulterous affair with some merchant's wife, according to Oakheart; which is probably worse than the usual patronising of whores.

As for your twofold division (martial prowess and chivalric virtue) it's interesting that Oakheart also seems to feel that the latter elevates Arthur Dayne above other badasses...."He had a great heart".

[Restless]

. Anyone who has knelt to an usurper,...., or specially killed the king shouldn't even enter into the lists.

And IMHO, anyone who knelt to a king that burned people and had beaten his wife for pleasure and sexual excitement should not be in the list. Especially ones that were c00l enough to say "we had sworn to keep her safe but not from him", there's nothing knightly in executing orders given by a madman :P

For killing Aerys, Jaime should be very, very high in the list.

[Markus]

Other-in-law,

Greenfield also carried on an adulterous affair with some merchant's wife, according to Oakheart; which is probably worse than the usual patronising of whores.

This had completely slipped my mind.

As for your twofold division (martial prowess and chivalric virtue) it's interesting that Oakheart also seems to feel that the latter elevates Arthur Dayne above other badasses...."He had a great heart".

I've always felt that the high regard Arthur Dayne is held in -- in particular by Ned -- was down to Dayne not only being a great warrior but also to his representation of the chivalric ideal. It's where he distinguished himself from other great fighters like Robert or Jaime.

[Markus]

Restless,

For killing Aerys, Jaime should be very, very high in the list.

The problem with Jaime is not necessarily that he killed Aerys. He also told no one why he did it and didn't leave the KG after he had broken his vow to protect the king's life. Even if one were to grant Jaime that he may have acted primarily or partly in the pursuit of higher moral values, his subsequent actions further besmirched the kingsguard, the preeminent knightly order of Westeros, and knighthood in general. Furthermore, Jaime entered the KG to avoid being married to Lysa, to be near Cersei to continue their affair. So his values were also flawed from the start.

Then there are small things like continuing his incesteous affair with his sister after she had married Robert and although he served Robert as KG. This eventually led to a civil war which has cost a great many lifes. He also lied to Tyrion about Tysha being a whore which emotionally crippled his brother. Then there is the attempted murder of Bran to cover his and Cersei's affair. Jaime's order to murder Jory Cassel, Heward and Wyl is another situation which illuminated an ugly part of Jaime's character. These are all examples of why Jaime should not be regarded as a great knight if a great knight needs to uphold knightly virtues and not only be a great fighter.

[Restless]

in whole ASOIAF we see NO knight who acts as "Knight".

jaime did what supposedly great knights as Barristan and Arthur Dayne never thought about, so he is better than them. Obviously neither Barristan nor Dayne would never object killing or torturing innocent if ordered from Aerys, so what knights are they?

[Silverstar]

Is the question 'greatest knight' or 'greatest member of the Kingsguard'? Because you can't argue that Jaime was the greatest member of the Kingsguard for killing Aerys, because that is the exact opposite of the point of the Kingsguard. You could make the argument that it made him a great knight, however (though I'm not entirely sure I agree that he is).

[Markus]

Restless,

in whole ASOIAF we see NO knight who acts as "Knight".

Even if it were true that no knight actually meets the criteria of an ideal knight -- which is fairly difficult in a world with sometimes conflicting oaths, loyalties and values -- some knights certainly come closer in their attempts than others and some don't try in the first place. I feel confident in saying that there are worthier knights than Jaime at least when one looks at his numerous sins. Jaime sometimes acting in a knightly fashion doesn't make his various crimes suddenly go away.

jaime did what supposedly great knights as Barristan and Arthur Dayne never thought about, so he is better than them. Obviously neither Barristan nor Dayne would never object killing or torturing innocent if ordered from Aerys, so what knights are they?

We simply don't know what Selmy and Dayne thought or didn't think. I'm also not quite sure where you draw your assurance from that Selmy or Dayne wouldn't "object" to the killing or torturing of innocents even if ordered by Aerys. For all we know Selmy and Dayne were either absent when Aerys did his worst acts or they did object at least.

[Fireball07]

If I had to pick 7 of them to protect me, I would have Jaime on it. If I was king, I wouldn't be planning to roast people in their armour, or killing their fathers. And even if one of them had risen up against me, I would have put the son in a nice out-of-the way place.

My 7 would be:

Barristan (LC), Jaime, Sandor, Arys, Balon, Mandon and Meryn.

They all seem loyal enough, and Meryn is the only one who's skill is in question. I wouldn't have Loras and Boros, Osmund and Preston are also too risky IMO.

[Bubba]

Ser Arys Oakheart is my favorite. He also has in my opinion the best love scene with Arienne.

[The hairy bear]

If I had to pick 7 of them to protect me, I would have Jaime on it. If I was king, I wouldn't be planning to roast people in their armour, or killing their fathers.

I'm sure Robert had the very same thoughts. :P

[Tywin Lannister]

My Seven would be:

1. Balon Sawnn (Lord Commander)

Would have been my choice for Lord Commander. Skilled with variety of weapons (even though not to the same degree as Jaime, Loras and Barristan). Honorable, loyal and chivalrous. A man to set an example of what a Knight of the Kingsguard should be.

2. Loras Tyrell

Probably better then Jaime with a lance, and very good with sword and probably a number of other melee weapons. Can be counted on to be reasonably loyal. Popular with smallfolk, which will add to my popularity if he is seen as my sworn sword. Rash, arrongant and overconfident, but he will eventually either grow out of it, become 2nd Jaime or vacate a spot in Kingsguard.

3. Jaime Lannister (2-handed)

Number one swordsman in the Seven Kingdoms. Probably wouldn’t make a habit out of kingslaying without a good reason.

4. Barristan the Bold

An excellent fight despite his advancing age, honorable and loyal. He is a renowned knight, and does honor to any king he serves.

Note to self: should start looking for a good replacement for him in advance, and not among the sods who didn’t make it to this list, obviously.

5. Arys Oakenheart

Appears to be a decent knight: probably a good enough fighter, and at least tries to keep his vows. Chivalrous. Loyal. I could definitely do worse.

6. Mandon Moore

An excellent fighter, if nothing else. Probably would be loyal enough.

7. Meryn Trant

His combat skill is uncertain, and he is gaining years, but he is the best among the worst. At least, he isn’t known as “the Belly†and didn’t get killed by a common mob. Probably would be loyal enough, in the very least.

I won’t have Sandor Clegane despite his obvious combat prowess, for the reasons that should be obvious (unless you are looking at him through rose-colored glass).

Osmund Kettleblack is out of question because of his questionable loyalty, Preston Greenfield because of his questionable skill and Boros Blount for obvious reasons.

[Baratheon_bastard]

Ser Arys Oakheart is my favorite. He also has in my opinion the best love scene with Arienne.

Definitely agree there, considering it's one of the very few sex scenes we get where both people are actually attractive.

(Sam&Gilly and Tyrion&Shae come to mind in comparison :thumbsdown: )

Also, to answer the question a few people are having - I purposely worded the question to be your FAVORITE KG member, not necessarily the 'best' knight or the 'best' KG. It's intended to be subjective.

[dragon wolf]

My favorite KG is Ser Barristan Selmy. Not necessarily who he is now, but in toto. Entered a tourney as a mystery knight at age 10 (earned nick "the Bold"). Entered tourney as mystery knight again at age 16 and defeated KG Commander Duncan the Tall AND the Prince of Dragonflies (then knighted). Joined KG at 23. Took a "bullet" for his king, saved his king from kidnappers and avenged a fellow KG's death in the Defiance of Duskendale. Ended the War of the Ninepenny Kings after defeating Maelys the Monstrous in single combat. Saved Lady Jeyne Swann and slew Simon Toyne of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. Took a dozen men and near death from multiple arrow and sword wounds before they could take him captive at the Battle of the Trident. Former Commander of the KG, led Robert's forces in the Greyjoy Rebellion. Killed the Titan's Bastard w/a staff (in his 60's).

Barristan was considered the best sword in his youth. Even in his 60's, he is still a warrior supreme, but more importantly is widely considered to be the greatest living knight. Selmy is not perfect, but he is a true knight. So yes Sansa, true knights do exist.

Speaking of Sansa, what exactly did she do to transform Sandor from Hound to Hero? Joff's dog had a strange crush on her, but what exactly did she do specifically that triggered this change? It was certainly not "love" at first sight.

On another note, I think Ser Balon Swann's influence by Barristan is underrated, their histories intertwine and both come from Dorne.

[Markus]

Speaking of Sansa, what exactly did she do to transform Sandor from Hound to Hero? Joff's dog had a strange crush on her, but what exactly did she do specifically that triggered this change? It was certainly not "love" at first sight.

Sandor hasn't really turned into a hero yet. Until he recently "died" he was still the Hound. Since then he has simply stopped being the Hound but not yet done anything to declare him a hero.

Why was he attracted to Sansa? She was beautiful, innocent, vulnerable and still believed that knights were necessarily heroic, chivalric figures like in songs. Perhaps she reminded him of his own dead sister or she reminded him of his own dreams and vulnerability when he was young or he may simply have been attracted to her unspoiled and naive beauty which needed to be protected by a figure out of songs he may have wanted to become once. Perhaps some combination of these factors.

On another note, I think Ser Balon Swann's influence by Barristan is underrated, their histories intertwine and both come from Dorne.

They are both from the Stormlands.

[Scafloc]

Ser Balon Swann seams to be the one with the highest ethic. But ... he has not really been in a situation that his ideals can be compromised. So basically you don't know what he would do in a Jaime <-> Aerys situation, or Sandor <-> Mycah for that matter.

That he has not been in that situation makes him more gray and less interesting.

Something the same for Ser Baristan, great guy but compare him to Ser Duncan, who lied about his knighthood, then Ser Barristan is a bit too noble to have an interesting story.

Jaime and Sandor booth get a lot of perspective in the books. So if we are talking about favourite Kingsguards it has to be one of them.