Your favorite knight of the Kingsguard?

[dragon wolf]

They are both from the Stormlands.

I just rechecked, we could be both wrong. Barristan was born in the Dornish Marches and squired for Lord Swan of Stonehelm (not sure if that is a Stormland house).

[Markus]

I just rechecked, we could be both wrong. Barristan was born in the Dornish Marches and squired for Lord Swan of Stonehelm (not sure if that is a Stormland house).

Swann is a House in the Stormlands. So is House Selmy. The Dornish Marches include lands ruled by Storm's End. The appendix of AGoT also lists both Houses as among those who are sworn to Storm's End.

[dragon wolf]

Swann is a House in the Stormlands. So is House Selmy. The Dornish Marches include lands ruled by Storm's End. The appendix of AGoT also lists both Houses as among those who are sworn to Storm's End.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Would love to see a map of Westeros w/the houses overlaid.

[Ran]

Don't think there's any such map (yet -- the closest we get are OiL's very cool regional maps, but those feature the shields and not the house names, so you have to be up on those), but the Citadel breaks down the houses by region.

As to favorite Kingsguard, for me there's no question that it must be Barristan Selmy. He has made some mistakes and has some minor faults, but his virtues very much outweigh them.

[dragon wolf]

Don't think there's any such map (yet -- the closest we get are OiL's very cool regional maps, but those feature the shields and not the house names, so you have to be up on those), but the Citadel breaks down the houses by region.

As to favorite Kingsguard, for me there's no question that it must be Barristan Selmy. He has made some mistakes and has some minor faults, but his virtues very much outweigh them.

Thanks Ran, you run a very cool site!!! And I agree with you on Selmy.

[MojoJojo]

He murdered a young boy in cold blood and thought it was funny ...

The thread is who is your favorite, not who you think is the most morally pure.

Sandor is a great character. He isn't one of the good guys, but he isn't entirely one of the bad ones either.

[Kimera757]

Barristan Selmy - badass.

Mandon Moore - a great bodyguard for a villainous king. He didn't outlive Joffrey, but as long as Joff was alive, I wanted him around.

Ser Sandor Clegane - Also badass, but seems to have loyalty issues.

Jaime Lannister - Not only badass, but capable of being a hero (killing King Aerys - yes, I said hero!) and a villain (treason, incest, child murder all at once!). I have to say no to him, though. Treason is too much!

I have to vote for Arys Oakheart. I don't know why the celibacy rules are there; to keep them from being seduced by villains? I don't really care.

[dragon wolf]

Sandor hasn't really turned into a hero yet. Until he recently "died" he was still the Hound. Since then he has simply stopped being the Hound but not yet done anything to declare him a hero.

The Hound is no hero in my eyes either. But he's become such a fan favorite, some are even hoping he ends up with Sansa (who is a child). I know his POVs and his actions since GoT has made him less of a monster, but he needs to do much more to redeem himself IMO. And I really cannot honestly say I want him in a romantic relationship w/one of the Stark kids, heck, ANY kids.

Why was he attracted to Sansa? She was beautiful, innocent, vulnerable and still believed that knights were necessarily heroic, chivalric figures like in songs. Perhaps she reminded him of his own dead sister or she reminded him of his own dreams and vulnerability when he was young or he may simply have been attracted to her unspoiled and naive beauty which needed to be protected by a figure out of songs he may have wanted to become once. Perhaps some combination of these factors.

That's what I mean, there really was no tipping point for his affections for Sansa, its all speculative. It is only Sansa's nearness/relationship w/Joff that seems to catch the Hounds' attention, at least at first. What is the difference w/the Hounds attraction to Sansa, and Littlefinger's? Both are horrific to me, and it seems, to Sansa as well.

[Jon Targaryen]

I also responded based off the idea of favorite character.

Just want to respond to this:

I've always felt that the high regard Arthur Dayne is held in -- in particular by Ned -- was down to Dayne not only being a great warrior but also to his representation of the chivalric ideal. It's where he distinguished himself from other great fighters like Robert or Jaime.

I think Arthur Dayne distinguished himself from other great fighters like Robert or Jaime by being a better fighter. The "pissing and slaying" comment by Jaime is obviously hyperbole but is there for a reason. Dayne was super-damn deadly.

He was also a better representation of the chivalric ideal.

[Markus]

dragon wolf,

What is the difference w/the Hounds attraction to Sansa, and Littlefinger's? Both are horrific to me, and it seems, to Sansa as well.

There seems to be some connection from Sansa to the Hound. She remembered that Sandor kissed her although he never did in reality. She also kept his discarded White Cloak and even slept in it for a time. She wondered once if she was wise not to flee King's Landing with him as he had wanted and wished he was with her.

It's not clear what exactly Sansa sees in the Hound though. A protector? Somebody who needs her help? Or something else?

Jon Targaryen,

I think Arthur Dayne distinguished himself from other great fighters like Robert or Jaime by being a better fighter. The "pissing and slaying" comment by Jaime is obviously hyperbole but is there for a reason. Dayne was super-damn deadly.

And earlier Jaime thinks that while Dayne was stronger than him his own speed and skill would allow him to defeat Dayne. I wouldn't give either assessment too much weight. In the one situation he wanted to impress the rest of the Kingsguard with the legendary knights he learned from to put them in their place and establish his authority, now that he couldn't enforce it with his sword skills anymore. In the other, his evaluation is filtered through his arrogance.

He was also a better representation of the chivalric ideal.

I would think that the possible difference in fighting ability between Dayne on the one hand and Robert and Jaime on the other is significantly smaller than between their respective chivalry.

[Ser Howsmelly]

Jaime would definitely be my member of the KG based on a choice from the original 7 at the start of AGOT. Before you scratch beneath the surface of his famed gilt plate armour Jaime appears to be the pre-eminent knight of Westeros. The two most famous knights in the KG of that time would definitely be Jaime and Ser Barristan. Of those two, Selmy is old so I view him as the most deadly of the KG at the time. Plus Jaime's just a bad ass, minus the incest and misplaced judgment of non-inherent flying abilities in 8 yr olds.

Selmy second. Screw the rest (of that 7), non-entities in my opinion. It would be interesting to see how Robert allowed Trant and Blount to be installed as his KG as there would have been five slots to fill following the end of the Rebellion.

[Fireball07]

^Well in fairness it can be hard enough to fill the KG spots. You have to have someone who is loyal, someone who isn't married or doesn't want to get married.

Trant was probably a good fighter in his time. Everyone says Blount was never more than ordinary.

You'd think that there would be better choices available, but it's hard to say unless we are given more information about the time.

[The hairy bear]

Yeah, I agree that probably it was difficult for Robert or Jon Arryn to choose five new members in the KG after the rebellion. To begin with you need knights, unmarried, and unwilling to marry. They should have some renown and survived the war. And most important: they had to fight on your side. At the beginning of Robert's reign he was considered an usurper but many and you wouldn't want someone who couldn't be trusted watching your back.

Since there are virtually no knights in the North, he picked Meryn Trant from the Stormlands, Mandon Moore from the Vale, Preston Greenfield from the Westerlands and Boros Blount from the Blackwater area, plus someone else we don't know about. Given that this was done in a hurry, I guess it could be worse.

[Fireball07]

^He picked Arys too.

[Markus]

^He picked Arys too.

Arys was however not picked directly after the rebellion. Apparently he had been in the KG for ten years or less before AFfC.

One may speculate that he replaced some KG who was killed in Greyjoy's Rebellion.

[Fireball07]

must have missed that. i suppose he's younger than the rest

[Jon Targaryen]

must have missed that. i suppose he's younger than the rest

And a bit better too, imo.

[Markus]

And a bit better too, imo.

Tyrion didn't distinguish between the skill of Mandon Moore and Balon Swann when he saw them fighting back to back in the Battle of the Blackwater and Jaime stated that Moore was the most dangerous man in the Kingsguard except himself. So I'm inclined to believe that if there was an edge between Oakheart and Moore it lay with Moore.

Oakheart may have been the better jouster though if his boast that he would win the tourney at Joffrey's name day was more than arrogance.

[Fireball07]

Arys might have been good but I would think that Balon Swann was better. Everyone proclaims his skill-at-arms.

And Arianne thought it would be close between Darkstar and Arys, and people say that Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne.

I personally disagree with that. I would put Areo Hotah as one of the top 10 in the series, he totally outclassed Arys, I'd say he'd deal with Darkstar easily too and would possibly even overcome the Red Viper who defeated Gregor Clegane who was regarded as almost invincible.

After Jaime, Barristan and Loras, Balon was probably next in skill.

[Jon Targaryen]

Jaime stated that Moore was the most dangerous man in the Kingsguard except himself.

Jaime said that because Moore gave away nothing with his face. Do you think Moore was a better fighter than Barristan, who would have been in the KG when Jaime made his comment to Tyrion? Still, Barristan being better than Moore does not mean Oakheart was. I did not fully take Moore's skill into account.

That's partly because this time I was referring to the chivalric ideal when I said "better." Oakheart fell in love with Arianne and slept with her, true, but he balked at hitting Sansa unlike Moore. Although Oakheart also betrayed his king while Moore probably obeyed Cersei or Joffrey when he tried to kill Tyrion. Eh, Oakheart just feels more like the "true knight" from Sansa's stories to me.