"Under Heaven", the new Guy Gavriel Kay

[pat5150]

Kanlin are smatterings of women and men among many millions of men and women. Why does their population have to be exactly reflective of the much larger population? In fact, it'd be weird if it was precisely reflective.

I agree. . .

Didn't have any problem with this aspect of the book, and I fail to see why it should be an issue in the greater scheme of things. :unsure:

Patrick

[pat5150]

I almost feel compelled to post a pic (I'm generally reckoned not that bad looking)

Tease! :P

Patrick

[Liadin]

KoolKat I am not sure its just the market, I find female Authors are usually much better at producing female charecters who are nuanced and cogent with the worlds they live in and they are still successful. Hobb, Mckillip, Leguin, Jones all turn out lots of female charecters who do not fall into those two stereotypes of sex objects or men in tits, while having great success as authors.

Well sure. Female SFF authors aren't going to write crappy female characters just because they can get away with it. But many male authors, who for some reason I've never quite understood have a hard time writing female characters, aren't going to make that extra effort to write good ones if nobody's pushing them to. (And notice how often even the authors you mentioned go for male main characters.... but that's a discussion for another thread.)

As far as Arya and Brienne, I don't have any problem with their characters. I like the occasional warrioress just as much as anybody else. What I don't like are the people (I don't recall ever seeing this here, but elsewhere online) gushing about how Arya is their favorite female character ever. Really?? So I'm not criticizing Martin for including them, since he also included a variety of non-warrior women who are equally interesting--but that's not the norm, and the reader reaction is telling.

[Volsungr]

Chataya my point was not that all female athletes are masculinized some are indeed very feminine but that it tends to be an advantage, the woman I posted is not a body builder she is the 145 pound weight class strikeforce MMA champion. Combat plays to male physical skills and women who excel at it are more likely to be masculinized.

Pat150 I don't expect most people will be bothered by it. I think most people have grown used to the portrayal of female charecters who are largely indistinguishable from male characters aside from physical charecteristics this is what's expected in politcal correct writing. However for me as someone who trains athletes male and female and who has a background in biological and cultural anthropology and an interest in historical cultures this type of portrayal rankles me because it is contrary to the reality I see everyday. Its all about your priors this is pet peeve for me for the same reason SCA geeks freak out about edge on edge parrying in movies, or kilts on a lowland scots in braveheart.

I am not asking you change how you feel about the book just expressing stuff that came up for me. I think its an interesting dicussion though, how to portray women in fiction based on societies oppressive to women in positive light while staying true to the setting.

Koolkat agreed.

[Guinevere Seaworth]

I regret being this late to the game but I thought Under Heaven was superb. It was a return to G.G.Kay's work like Lions of Al-Rassan, Song of Arbonne or the Saratine Mosaic. I think this novel will be the best fantasy novel for me this year.

Reading this makes me realize how little I know of Chinese history, and how rich that history is.

I do have a question. There are several references to a rising power to the west. Are they refering to the rise of Islam? Holy Roman Empire?

Secondly:

Who or what was the fox-woman? I didn't see the point of that at all.

[Liadin]

Now that this topic has been revived, I feel compelled to say that (having read A Song for Arbonne since I last posted, and thinking back to Tigana) Kay has done a pretty good job from what I've seen of avoiding the pitfalls often associated with male authors writing female characters. In both Tigana and Arbonne, a) he has them b} they're not whores c) they manage to be strong characters without a single warrioress and d) they actually have positive relationships with each other! I was impressed, actually, by Arbonne. He even had a positive, sympathetic female ruler as of the beginning of the story, and I can't remember when is the last time I've seen that....

[Ashara]

I finished it yesterday night, took two sessions from the library with the wait in between to get through it. Very enjoyable read, though I find Kay to become formulaic. I didn't mind Song, even though she seemed to be closer to the Forgotten Realms type than Kay's own stereotypes; I doubt any reader missed from the moment of her showing up on the stage that she is going to be the protagonist's True Love. Li Mei on another hand was interesting, but her best part was cut down to the epilogue and to be honest, I was puzzled by her ending. Wen Jian definetly ended up as my favorite character. Rain started strong, but I was dissappointed with her conclusion, though I thought it very fitting. Sweet read, wonderful installment for me from Kay, after Ysobel that I didn't get sucked in. Wondering what's next from him?

[williamjm]

Wondering what's next from him?

Since he's just done China, I wonder if he'll do India next?

[Calibandar]

Though in a way I'd also like him to do something more fantastical again, in the vein of Fionavar and Tigana. The semi-historical epics are superb, and he's clearly the best in the genre doing it, and most of his fans seem to want him to continue doing that. But I would actually not be appalled to hear him say he's next work is a return to epic Fantasy, because I am sure that he is an author who can do this really, really well. Even if you're critical of Fionavar, that was his first work, the man is 25 years further now.

[jurble]

Didn't enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Tigana or Lions of Al-Rassan. A lot of the characters seem copied from both books, though I think this is intentional on his part. He has some sort of archetypal character thing going. Like, it seems like the First Concubine and the Emperor are sorta like Brandon (I think that was his name) and his Tiganese Concubine in Tigana, what with Brandon mentioning how they'll love each other again in another life, and a similar comment pops or something in this book too, though I guess the Brandon-Tigana-chick paradigm works with Tai's sister and the Bogu dude.

Whatever, this book was way too Similarillion for me to enjoy.

Uh, some mysteries left over at the end of the book - Who was the third poet that wrote the poem near the end that wasn't supposedly that good but was friend with the Banished Immortal and the other famous poet. Was it supposed to be Shen Tai? Why was dude called the Banished Immortal? What else, who was Wei Song's father that so astonished Shen Tai? And Kitai is supposed to be China, I get that, but what is Targur supposed to be? Wikipedia says Tibet, but even at the height of the Tibetan Empire, China didn't have much to fear from a country whose population it outnumbered 1,000 to 1. And what would Sardia be? Armenia? The Caucasus? Do they even have horses there?

Like, I never really felt concern for any of the characters in this book. I never once wondered if Tai was gonna make it to the end, and shiz.

[Angalin]

Who was the third poet that wrote the poem near the end that wasn't supposedly that good but was friend with the Banished Immortal and the other famous poet. Was it supposed to be Shen Tai?

Yes, I thought so.

Why was dude called the Banished Immortal?

The Emperor or the First Concubine had him kicked out of the imperial city for one of his poems.

What else, who was Wei Song's father that so astonished Shen Tai?

He was one of the monks who'd trained him.

And Kitai is supposed to be China, I get that, but what is Targur supposed to be? Wikipedia says Tibet, but even at the height of the Tibetan Empire, China didn't have much to fear from a country whose population it outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

Artistic license?

And what would Sardia be?

Bactria, I'm pretty sure.

[Sis Who Swears]

I finally read this and I LOVE it.

I read it twice actually and loved it even more the second time.

One thing is really bothering me though... how did Meshag know who Li-Mei is? It seems she kind of asks him but he doesn't answer and if we ever found out I completely missed it.

[Angalin]

One thing is really bothering me though... how did Meshag know who Li-Mei is? It seems she kind of asks him but he doesn't answer and if we ever found out I completely missed it.

Ahhh... I'm going to have to think about that. If anyone remembers before I find my copy, chip in!

(Did he see her from a distance once before she left? hmm...)

[Sis Who Swears]

Thanks for the bump Ang. :)

Right now I'm kinda going with the very loose theory of Meshag/kanlin/magicky stuff. :lol:

[Angalin]

SWS, my copy was returned unprompted by a friend a few days after you asked your question. Serendipitous!

I think what happened was that the Kanlin monks, hearing that Li-Mei was going north, sent word to Meshag - possibly via the wolves - to ask him to retrieve her ("retrieve" isn't quite the right word, but "rescue" doesn't quite describe it either). The monks did so because of Tai and the work he was doing, and Meshag agreed because Tai had saved him. Does that make sense?

[Sis Who Swears]

Ahhh I was wondering about that. I just wasn't sure if the Kanlin's were that involved in the goings on of court life to have known or cared. But put the way you put it, it does make sense. Thanks Ang! :love:

Glad you got your book back! I am sooo loving GGK right now.

[TheDanish]

Bumping again. I read the free chapter on Guy's website, and I was blown away. He did his research. As a student of Chinese history myself, I can say he's nailed a lot of the fine points of Chinese culture and the empire's workings. I'm definitely going to pick this up.

And this may be reaching back too far in the thread, just for the purpose of offering what knowledge I can, but...

China didn't have much to fear from a country whose population it outnumbered 1,000 to 1

Tibet actually gave Tang China a good bit of trouble, and after the An Lushan Rebellion the Tibetans managed to march as far as Chang'an (the Tang capital), though to be fair, China had been severely weakened by the Rebellion.

But generally, yea, pre-Rebellion Tang China wouldn't have had much to fear beyond Tibet disrupting plans in the west.