Jeyne Westerling, escaped?

[xDestructionx]

I might have just been the way I read the passage or something, but it seemed to me that Jaime's description of Jeyne after the surrender of Riverrun differed from previous descriptions by Catelyn and other POV's. One point that sticks out in my memory is that Jaime described Jeyne as having narrow hips, while Catelyn described her as having wide hips. Is this subtle foreshadowing, or a simple inconsistency? Or did I read it wrong? I do not have a copy of the book, so it would be appreciated if someone checked up on the exact narratives from the books.

[DomDayne]

I think a lot of people think that his wasn't an error or just differing views of her, one a mother and one a soldier, this could well be a classic Martin swicheroo, to save the legitimate Stark Heir... But i don't have the passage either so there could be people in the scene that would have known Jayne by sight im not sure, and thus redering this theory void.

[VorianGR]

Her mother was there the hole time and she is certainly a Lannister supporter

[xDestructionx]

But the only people that would have recognized Jeyne at Riverrun would have been the Westerlings themselves, Tullys, and any guards, all of them loyal to Robb Stark. Remember that the Westerlings are from the Crag, which i on the very western coast of Westeros, and Riverrun is in the middle of the riverlands.

edit: Her mother is not a Lannister supporter. Remember that the only person that Grey Wind sensed ill intent from was Jeyne Westerling's uncle, who was sent away on some mission of sorts.

[Blackthrone]

Her mother planned the whole thing.

[Ser Howsmelly]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=28885

[Dreadwolf]

Her mother planned the whole thing.

While this is arguable I'd vote for Grey Wind with both my hands.

Remember Rob said to Bran I think when they were attacked by the wildings near Winterfell earlier in the book (quote as from my memory)

"I sometime think they (direwolves) sense things, they do knew things..."

Then Grey Wind abilities were proved. Still this may be arguable too as it is possible for direwoves to have only a bit of restricted ability to foresee the Human attitude and intentions in the long run since Grey Wind didn't show any negative prejudice to Freys on Rob's first vistit at Twins. And the Ghost IIRC first reaction on Tyrion at the Wall was not very friendly.

In spite of all that the direwolves are shown to have excellent six sense especially when we are talking about imminent dangers.

By the time Grey Wind encountered for the first time with the Westerlings he should have had his abilities fully developed.

So its interesting to think about..

As it was just have been done - I would also recommend http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=28885

(Very Good staff there and - it was not too late when it was still hot a thread)

Edit: too many typos

[Guest Other-in-law]

While this is arguable I'd vote for Grey Wind with both my hands.

It's not arguable, it's flat-out proven. She confessed! When she spoke to Jaime she told him of the agreement with Tywin, how Jeyne was not to become pregnant, and how they were promised joy (which Jaime appears to have misinterpreted as referring to his bastard cousin Joy Hill).

[xDestructionx]

Posts 11 and 14 are interesting.

But lets get back on topic.

I think the real Jeyne Westerling escaped and is carrying the Stark heir, and an impostor has replaced Jeyne. However, this is purely based on the different POVs of Catelyn and Jaime. Catelyn described Jeyne as having good hips early on, but then after the surrender of Riverrun Jaime described her as having narrow hips. However, some people think that Jeyne was not switched, and her mother made sure that she did not become pregnant by giving her moon tea; however, this does not explain the difference in descriptions.

Jamie turned to the daughter. "I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seised her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me.

Could it be possible that Jeyne was switched, and Jeyne's mother was in fact only saying that she gave Jeyne moon tea? And that Jeyne's mother only made it seem like she was conspiring with the Lannisters, when in fact she was on Robb's side all along? This would explain both the difference in descriptions and Jeyne's mother's apparent 'betrayal.' Remember also that Grey Wind did not sense any ill intent from Jeyne's mother.

[arek]

edit: Her mother is not a Lannister supporter. Remember that the only person that Grey Wind sensed ill intent from was Jeyne Westerling's uncle, who was sent away on some mission of sorts.

That is inaccurate I have a copy of ASOS open in front of me & it says Greywind bears his teeth whenever Rolph Spicer is around & that her mothe was terrified of him (with good reason it seems).

The passage said Jeyne was anxious around him but thats understandable as Robb explains Greywind killed a knight at the crag that Jeyne knew her whole life.

Greywind didnt seem to have a problem with Jeyne (as we learn in AFFC she genuninely loved Robb) nor with her younger brother Raynald (Jeynes mother mentions in AFFC that Raynald didnt know about the understanding between her & Tywin), The fact that Greywind didnt snap or bare his teeth at Raynald proves this.

Sybell Spicer Jeynes mother I wanted to slap when I read Jamies last chapter in AFFC

[xDestructionx]

^^

ok whatever...so Grey Wind bared his teeth whenever Rolph Spicer (Jeyne's uncle) was around so that probably means that he did not like Robb very much. However, it did not indicate that Grey Wind did the same when Sybell was around.

So, back to my theory:

Could it be possible that Jeyne was switched, and Sybell was in fact only saying that she gave Jeyne moon tea? And that Sybell only made it seem like she was conspiring with the Lannisters, when in fact she was on Robb's side all along? This would explain both the difference in descriptions (Catelyn and Jaime) and Sybell's apparent 'betrayal.' Jeyne could have easily escaped with the Blackfish.

[VorianGR]

Could it be possible that Jeyne was switched, and Sybell was in fact only saying that she gave Jeyne moon tea? And that Sybell only made it seem like she was conspiring with the Lannisters, when in fact she was on Robb's side all along? This would explain both the difference in descriptions (Catelyn and Jaime) and Sybell's apparent 'betrayal.' Jeyne could have easily escaped with the Blackfish.

Sybell is a woman of low ancestry that wants nothing but further advancement for herself and her kids. The depiction we get from Jaime's POV is of a ruthless woman. A person like that would not be loyal to Rob with him dead, his castle burnt, his kingdom gone. Your theory is more wishful thinking.

Explaining the difference in description of her hips is simple. Catelyn is a woman while Jaime is a tall and strong man that compares all women to Cersei. Jeyne is depicted as a young, fragile girl and delicate, while Cersei is totally opposite of that.

Of course there is always the case that GRRM forgot what she looked like

[Dreadwolf]

It's not arguable, it's flat-out proven. She confessed! When she spoke to Jaime she told him of the agreement with Tywin, how Jeyne was not to become pregnant, and how they were promised joy (which Jaime appears to have misinterpreted as referring to his bastard cousin Joy Hill).

Well I've heard also she might have had some old family debts to pay Lannisters backs.

People often do confes some thinks which might be not enirely true (i.e. lord Eddard Stark)

Edit: thinking twice - the Kingslayer white cloak (and his uncut hair probably) kinda reminds me of the Mother Confesors dress.

So you maight be right ... :)

[xDestructionx]

Explaining the difference in description of her hips is simple. Catelyn is a woman while Jaime is a tall and strong man that compares all women to Cersei. Jeyne is depicted as a young, fragile girl and delicate, while Cersei is totally opposite of that.

You cannot just say that it is simply the difference in POVs. There is clearly a difference between 'good hips' and 'narrow hips'...anyone would know the difference, regardless of gender-influence. In my opinion, it is more likely that GRRM forgot what she looked like...except that this is a really key character and description, so I do not think it likely.

@Dreadwolf

Well I've heard also she might have had some old family debts to pay Lannisters backs.

What are these family debts?

[Dreadwolf]

@Dreadwolf

What are these family debts?

Well just rumors, crack pot theories and gossips here and there of a kind.

I would reccomend for a start post nr. 10 in

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=37590

[VorianGR]

. In my opinion, it is more likely that GRRM forgot what she looked like...except that this is a really key character and description, so I do not think it likely.

I think you are mistaking Jeyne and Roslyn. Catelyn mentions Jeyne's hips once, while we have two pages about Roslin's

[xDestructionx]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=37590

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...rling&st=60

Interesting...thanks for the link Dreadwolf. I am not going to continue arguing about this, but only because there is too much to think about. Read for yourselves and reach your own conclusions.

edit: @VorianGR, no mistake. Jeyne was Robb's wife and could quite possibly produce a Stark heir, so she is definitely a character that GRRM would have been careful with.

[Guest Other-in-law]

You cannot just say that it is simply the difference in POVs.

I most certainly can. Watch:

It is simply the difference in POVs.

And it is.

[wakiki]

The Grey Wind clue could go either way. It could be that she's innocent, because Grey Wind frightens her and Jeyne, but bares his teeth at the uncle. Or it could be that GRRM threw Sybell in as being frightened, because he didn't want us to be too suspicious. The hips could be a red herring tossed our way that can be explained by Jaime's difference in POV (Cersei is getting fat), it could be a clue that tells us she's a fake Jeyne, or it could be simply a brain fart on GRRM's part. If it was a simple mistake, I hope that he would tell everyone. Maybe I should email him. :)

[arek]

Or it could be the fact she was described different because by the time Jamie saw her, she was depressed & grieving over Robb (was few weeks or months from RW) & lost weight because of it