Jeyne Westerling, escaped?

[thotk]

Yes, as it was set in motion before Jaime was released.

Is that true? Jaime was freed a good little while before Robb returned and if I understand Lord Frey didn't know until Robb had returned...

[Errant Bard]

Roose Bolton talks to Jaime about how he's going to give his salutation to Robb, he knew, and the messages, as seen in Arya's PoV came way before, when news of Robb's oathbreaking reached Harrenhal. Also, of course, in that Tyrion PoV just after Robb sleeps with Jeyne, we have Tywin smiling smugly (well, almost smiling), corroborated by Sybel Spicer later, they had an agreement.

The plan was set in motion. At the exact moment Tyrion saw his father writing letters. Before Jaime's release, and certainly before his safe return.

[natxavier]

Is it possible that Jeyne's mother, foreseeing the potential danger for her daughter, sent Jeyne safely away before the siege ever began, thereby avoiding the whole "escaped with the Blackfish" theory?

Honestly, there are some rather complicated theories about this whole matter, but I do not think that the differing views from Catelyn & Jaime are accidental. Admittedly, mistakes are sometimes made in the writing / editing process, but not here. The Jeyne we meet in AFfC is not the real Jeyne.

I saw earlier where someone mentioned that maybe Jeyne lost weight from being distraught over Robb's death. "Child-bearing hips" are due to bone structure, not flesh.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Is it possible that Jeyne's mother, foreseeing the potential danger for her daughter, sent Jeyne safely away before the siege ever began, thereby avoiding the whole "escaped with the Blackfish" theory?

Escaped to where? The countryside ravaged with bandits and broken men, Bloody Mummers, Karstarks, Gregor Clegane's merry batch of monsters, and Nymeria's feral wolf pack? Yeah, that would be so much better than comfortable confinement in a cushy tower cell for a year or so.

Honestly, there are some rather complicated theories about this whole matter, but I do not think that the differing views from Catelyn & Jaime are accidental.

Jaime and Cat having differing standards by which they judge hip girth would hardly be "accidental". It would be nothing more than yet another example of people with different perspectives seeing things differently....which the POV structure of the books hammers home again and again and again.

[Edward the Great]

Jaime and Cat having differing standards by which they judge hip girth would hardly be "accidental". It would be nothing more than yet another example of people with different perspectives seeing things differently....which the POV structure of the books hammers home again and again and again.

You are overly dismissive of the importance of this issue. Catelyn is obsessed with hip girth. It is one of the first things she notices about Jeyne and the girl that Edmure weds. She is obsessed about their ability to give birth and even interrogates the Frey physician on the family history. It is simply not believable that Catelyn and Jaime could perceive the same girl so differently. It would be on par with "Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the Night" for bad writing.

[Silent Brother Clegane]

I must say, this whole thing (the entire swooning of Robb whilst he sits the throne of the castle he's just conquered.) is way fishy. I'm almost thinking that Jeyne was pushed into that room to get Robb's monkey barking, her mother having the shrewd foresight to realize that he was like to marry whatever he first put his Ossifer Plumm into. If sybel had in fact been giving Jeyne the moon tea then her ass had been lying to Robb the whole time. Also the "He gave it to me(the crown)" line was rather devoid of any of that good ol' true love sentiment, sounded more like a bratty girl who wanted to keep a trophy of her first great deceit.

[Guest Other-in-law]

You are overly dismissive of the importance of this issue. Catelyn is obsessed with hip girth. It is one of the first things she notices about Jeyne and the girl that Edmure weds. She is obsessed about their ability to give birth and even interrogates the Frey physician on the family history.

Is Jaime equally obsessed about childbearing capacity? Why no, as a matter of fact he isn't. He doesn't particularly give a shit. His concerns as far as they exist on the subject, are whether the T&A arouse him. The end.

[Silent Brother Clegane]

Is Jaime equally obsessed about childbearing capacity? Why no, as a matter of fact he isn't. He doesn't particularly give a shit. His concerns as far as they exist on the subject, are whether the T&A arouse him. The end.

also the only hips he has ever really had to judge from are(soon to be were, they ain't feedin girl so well in the the Sept of Bealor) quite ample...

[Edward the Great]

Is Jaime equally obsessed about childbearing capacity? Why no, as a matter of fact he isn't. He doesn't particularly give a shit. His concerns as far as they exist on the subject, are whether the T&A arouse him. The end.

Which is why Catelyn would hold much higher standards for what she would consider wide hips. These facts don't lead to the conclusion you think they do.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Which is why Catelyn would hold much higher standards for what she would consider wide hips. These facts don't lead to the conclusion you think they do.

Uh...no, that's just a garbled mess. Cat having high standards doesn't mean that someone else can't prefer something more curvy and voluptuous than what she considers adequate for child-bearing.

[Alexia]

Uh...no, that's just a garbled mess. Cat having high standards doesn't mean that someone else can't prefer something more curvy and voluptuous than what she considers adequate for child-bearing.

I have to agree. A woman does not need visibly wide hips to safely give birth to children. There is a certain range that is simply too narrow (particularly in a small, slight woman paired with a large man) but there is plenty of variation within the "safety" range. Frankly, I simply don't believe the theory that Jeyne is an imposter and the real one fled, pregnant with the Stark heir. The other Starks are not likely to react well if she shows up in the North, claiming their inheritance for her child.

[Silent Brother Clegane]

Uh...no, that's just a garbled mess. Cat having high standards doesn't mean that someone else can't prefer something more curvy and voluptuous than what she considers adequate for child-bearing.

Cat was also backpeddling to make the union ok in her mind as she got so flamboozled by robb that she couldn't really object to his choice of bride.

[Prince Bran]

I have to agree. A woman does not need visibly wide hips to safely give birth to children. There is a certain range that is simply too narrow (particularly in a small, slight woman paired with a large man) but there is plenty of variation within the "safety" range. Frankly, I simply don't believe the theory that Jeyne is an imposter and the real one fled, pregnant with the Stark heir. The other Starks are not likely to react well if she shows up in the North, claiming their inheritance for her child.

I don't buy the Jeyne escaped theory, but if it WERE true, and she had a son, I don't see why Bran/Rickon/Sansa/Arya would get pissy about it -- assuming they believe her. Rickon is the only one with a personality largely unformed, but the other three would, I think, respect the rights of Robb's potential son.

[Ser Selmy]

Well it seems like some of you want to sling insults more than discuss things, civil discussion is the point of this right? If I want to insult people I can do that face to face like an adult, I am here for the discussion. Of course there is no positives when it comes to my theory, as I said nothing is adamant. I just think it odd that GRRM would have such a difference when the main description we get from Catelyn is that she had wide hips. If Brienne suddenly was beautiful in someones eyes wouldn't that be a little off putting since her main descriptor is ugly? I can't believe it is just a matter of the POV, can you show me a single example of Jaime doing this before? Not just comparing things to Cercei but differing from another characters descriptor? I mean lots of characters are never named, just described, and you have to figure out who they are by their descriptions in this series. Also wide hips WERE necessary for EASY childbirth back in the medieval times many, many women died in child birth because of narrow hips. As I said before you can never be sure with an author that doesn't know where he is going with the story and uses his fans for continuity. He even put it in AFfC Acknowledgements (just before About the Author) that the founders of this website, Eliond and Linda, know the Seven Kingdoms better than him. And its true, he keeps hacking his outline to pieces and changing things so he uses them for continuity. Nothing will be known for certain until all is said and done... and then people will still argue. Have Fun!

[wakiki]

The basic problem I have with the "they just look at people differently" theory is that it has no point. So Jaime thinks she's thin and Cat thinks she's well-built. So what? That means that the whole situation is pointless and confusing to astute readers who would notice it. If it's a big red herring, why be so subtle about it? I bet that alot of people missed that detail on their first read-through. (I did.)

[Edward the Great]

The basic problem I have with the "they just look at people differently" theory is that it has no point. So Jaime thinks she's thin and Cat thinks she's well-built. So what?

What struck me after my first read through the story is that Martin rarely puts in anything without a point. Details that your mind just glosses over are actually meaningful. Of course, this means that the story has too many plotlines for Martin to finish before he dies.

That means that the whole situation is pointless and confusing to astute readers who would notice it. If it's a big red herring, why be so subtle about it? I bet that alot of people missed that detail on their first read-through. (I did.)

There was something in the back of my head that issued a warning, but I dismissed it. It took a thread here to bring it back to me.

[Dreadwolf]

Red herring or not - it engages pretty well our minds. I didn't actually predict such an ardent debate on a matter already discussed in details till one is sick and tired of it.

Perhaps we may re-consider discussions about 'Syrio Forell is alive' one more time too.:)

[Edward the Great]

If the whereabouts of Jeyne's sister were known explicitly, this line of argument wouldn't exist.

Didn't Tyrion say something at one point that indicated he didn't know there was a 2nd daughter?

[Prince Bran]

There have been some very confident arguments coming from either side, and I'm just not seeing ample justification for the surety. There's really not enough evidence here to be certain one way or the other.

Perhaps we may re-consider discussions about 'Syrio Forell is alive' one more time too.:)

Haha. OT, but what angers me about Syrio's death is that he has access to all of the swords of the men he just killed with ease -- so he's not unarmed. Therefore it doesn't make sense to me that Meryn Trant, who doesn't come across as anything special, is able to dispatch Syrio with ease whereas Lannister men failed so miserably.

[Ser Silly Cat]

yea. Honestly if Robbs storyline just ended at the Freys...that'd just be shitty. Oh look here is this prodigy military commander! Oh he fell in love and it cost him a powerful ally..who killed him. The end? C'mon no way. I really really hope Jeyne pops up with a baby Robb.

That said as much as I want it..I don't know. Whoever this impostor is she seemed to be good at keeping her cover. And other people know who Jeyne is and what she looks lke-and I have trouble thinking ALL of them would just go along with it.

Or it could be the Jeyne just isn't showing yet. Lets say it was 2 months between Robbs leaving and Jamie got there. Those loose mourning clothes would hide any stomach growth she had.

it would be nice, yeah, but i think grrm would lose some respect points from me if she happened to be pregnant and escaped...alot of what i love about his writing is that he's ruthless with his characters. unless she was found and killed with whatever baby i hate to say it but id be pretty disappointed. all i want is for the freys to get effed up.