Dinsdale! Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 According to the NY Times:http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...2/birther-boom/The Obama Birth Certificate conspiracy theory is growing. And I just can't understand it. Of all the things to have a conspiracy theory about!? Most things people make conspiracy theories about are complicated. They're things like wars and genocides which are huge and complex, or terrorist attacks and coups which by their nature involve a small number of people conspiring together.But a woman giving birth? That's very simple to keep track of. You only have to know where one person is during a time when she's not going to be moving much and there are multiple dedicated witnesses. I mean, if as the birthers claim, Barack Obama was born in Kenyan, I'm pretty damn sure you could find a dozen Kenyans who would remember the commotion and hundreds who remember there being a really pregnant white woman one day and a no longer pregnant white woman with a baby the next. Even by the low standards of conspiracy theories, this one makes little sense. Why in God's name would an American woman studying at the University of Hawaii travel to Kenya to give birth? Or live in Kenya for that matter? Or if she was living in Kenya, wouldn't she travel back to the United States to give birth?There's the added weirdness that the relevant clause in the Constitution is one whose purpose lapsed with the collapse of the monarchies in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denstorebog Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 The conspiracy theory doesn't have anything to do with the likelihood of what and whatnot, it all hinges on Obama's perceived failure to produce a birth certificate. I say 'perceived' because as someone only remotely interested in the case, I have no idea if he actually did and some O'Reilly type maniac decided to whip up something out of nothing. In any case, if he didn't produce a birth certificate, it's not so much a conspiracy theory as a legitimate question which should easily be rebuffed, right? I'm certainly ideologically opposed to the party affiliations of most birthers, but there isn't really anything to debate in terms of whether Obama should be able to produce a certificate *if it's a prerequisite for being president*. Is there anything more to it, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kouran Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Interestingly enough McCain would have had some of the same problem. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudFlare Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Even by the low standards of conspiracy theories, this one makes little sense. Why in God's name would an American woman studying at the University of Hawaii travel to Kenya to give birth? Or live in Kenya for that matter? Or if she was living in Kenya, wouldn't she travel back to the United States to give birth?It's almost impossible that Obama was born in Kenya. IIRC she was known to be in Hawaii till at least her 8 month of pregnancy. She would have had to travel by air, and it would have been unlikely to have been possible, for Obama to be born elsewhere, particularly Kenya. And it is incredulous that she would want to travel anywhere, particularly Kenya, to give birth.Of course, it is interesting that Obama hasn't actually produced a birth certificate. IIRC, he or his campaign have only produced something similar to it. There's the added weirdness that the relevant clause in the Constitution is one whose purpose lapsed with the collapse of the monarchies in Europe.When the Constitution was written the United States could have been invaded and the government overthrown. To prevent a foreign government from having sham elections and installing a foreign born president, the birth clasue was added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 The conspiracy theory doesn't have anything to do with the likelihood of what and whatnot, it all hinges on Obama's perceived failure to produce a birth certificate. I say 'perceived' because as someone only remotely interested in the case, I have no idea if he actually did and some O'Reilly type maniac decided to whip up something out of nothing. In any case, if he didn't produce a birth certificate, it's not so much a conspiracy theory as a legitimate question which should easily be rebuffed, right? I'm certainly ideologically opposed to the party affiliations of most birthers, but there isn't really anything to debate in terms of whether Obama should be able to produce a certificate *if it's a prerequisite for being president*. Is there anything more to it, really?It's not a prerequisite for being president. I know this because they're trying to pass a law making it a prerequisite for President. And most of the birthers I've met believe he's a foreigner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 It's almost impossible that Obama was born in Kenya. IIRC she was known to be in Hawaii till at least her 8 month of pregnancy. She would have had to travel by air, and it would have been unlikely to have been possible, for Obama to be born elsewhere, particularly Kenya. And it is incredulous that she would want to travel anywhere, particularly Kenya, to give birth.Of course, it is interesting that Obama hasn't actually produced a birth certificate. IIRC, he or his campaign have only produced something similar to it.Probably his political advisers told him not to, either to rope-a-dope or because they felt anything they put forward would not be believed and lower his dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Interestingly enough McCain would have had some of the same problem. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone.To be fair, McCain is white. I'm certainly ideologically opposed to the party affiliations of most birthers, but there isn't really anything to debate in terms of whether Obama should be able to produce a certificate *if it's a prerequisite for being president*.It's not yet a prerequisite. As far as I can tell, Obama has released his Certificate of Live Birth (whatever that is) but not the other one, the one that the "birthers" want. I don't think that any President in the 20th century has had to go this far to prove that he was born in the United States. I think I know why and it really bothers me because there are so many legitimate political reasons to disagree with Obama that just making up disturbingly racist crap like this seems like the sort of weak, feckless politics that might have worked back in the 50s.EDIT: It's important to note that the article mentions that "no prominent Republicans" believe in this theory. Certainly, none of them raised any objections in the Congress during the election. The "birther" movement consists of fringe activists and people like Lou Dobbs who encourage them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Obama's Birth Certificate is available right here:http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/wikialit...Certificate.gifYeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudFlare Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Probably his political advisers told him not to, either to rope-a-dope or because they felt anything they put forward would not be believed and lower his dignity.Eh, maybe. I think it's kind of silly that they would let the issue fester, like the silliness of The Contender. If they have the birth certificate, it's an easy STFU/FAIL that they can nail the right with. Of course, very few people on the right, and none of the mainstream rightwing press, have even raised the issue. Hawaii seems to have a strange birth certificate system. There is a birth certificate, which apparently anyone who was a resident of Hawaii for the year before their child was born, can get, even if the child wasn't born in Hawaii. The Certification of Live Birth is what is needed to prove the child was actually physically born in Hawaii.When some Philly lawyer filed the lawsuit during November of 2008, the head of Hawaii's public health system released a statement that while she couldn't provide the birth certificate due to privacy reasons, she had actually seen it in the flesh. Most everyone took this as evidence that Barack had produced the certificate and let it drop.Anywho, it's improbable that Barack was born on foreign soil. There are far more pertinent unanswered questions, such as his associate with Ayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denstorebog Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 It's not a prerequisite for being president. I know this because they're trying to pass a law making it a prerequisite for President. And most of the birthers I've met believe he's a foreigner.If that's the case, what the hell kinda case are the birthers trying to make? "Obama isn't born American, so ... he isn't born American!" Isn't the whole movement based on the notion that if they can disprove his American birth, he's ineligible for Pres? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watcher Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Of course, it is interesting that Obama hasn't actually produced a birth certificate. IIRC, he or his campaign have only produced something similar to it.No other president has ever provided as much proof of where there were born as Obama has. This is the typical bullshit lie the brithers idiots use. There are multiple lines of evidence showing that Obama was born in Hawaii. The first is the short form birth certificate which was provided during the campaign. That is the only form that Hawaii will send by fax or mail, it contains all the information most people need to prove their place of birth. Other people have travelled to Hawaii and looked at his long form birth certificate that contains additional details like weight and doctor and such. The State of Hawaii has confirmed that he was born there. And finally a local Hawaii paper has produce the announcement of his birth.http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 If that's the case, what the hell kinda case are the birthers trying to make? "Obama isn't born American, so ... he isn't born American!" Isn't the whole movement based on the notion that if they can disprove his American birth, he's ineligible for Pres?He has to prove that he was born here to judicial authorities, if such a challenge is made. He did that. He asked Hawaii to certify that he was born there and they did. There is no need for public disclosure of his birth certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Exactly. Obama has done everything to prove he was born in Hawaii except show video of his mother shooting him out of her vagina next to a palm tree.This is a stupid theory held by stupid people and no more effort should be done to appease their stupidity. If you see any merit in the position, you are stupid. End of story. No exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Kilimaro Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 It's the current way for fundamentalist fruitbat wingnut wackjobs to act like they've got some kind of legal goods to make up for the fact that no one sane supports any of their preferred policies, ever. It also gives elected Republicans a chance to engage in some dog whistle politics by acting like their supporting the "birther bill" now is "just in case" for a future president when they're really trying to get in a dig on Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Exactly. Obama has done everything to prove he was born in Hawaii except show video of his mother shooting him out of her vagina next to a palm tree.That could easily be staged. NASA has massive sound stages on Mars just for that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_BlauerDragon Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 The Obama Birth Certificate conspiracy theory is growing.To me it's a pretty simple thing to figure out. Obama himself claimed to have visited Pakistan in 1981. He was either telling a lie, or he was using a non-U.S. Passport. So, he's either a lying sack of horse manure (like just about every other politician on the planet), or he is not a U.S. citizen. I won't go all the way to throwing my total support behind his removal from office based on this fact though (mainly because I do not want to have someone silence me).I did find This article to be rather interesting to read though. It would seem that all of the people who might be able to prove that Obama is not a U.S. citizen have been dropping like flies from high speed lead injection overdoses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ztemhead Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 yeah, I heard that NPR story today too. those people are whackjobs and the news outlets that are giving this story legs are just ratings fishing. there's nothing newsworthy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartTesla Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Please to read Snopes!:I cant cut and paste for some reason, but the US govt issued a travel advisory for Pakistan in 1981, which it does only if you can actually visit that place with a US passport. QED.Anyway, the US and Pakistan have been pretty close allies ever since '47, so I find it hard to believe there were ever travel restrictions ever for US citizens to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinsdale! Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 ETA: Cyrano is a quicker poster than IGood to see you to Chataya :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellis Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Obama himself claimed to have visited Pakistan in 1981. He was either telling a lie, or he was using a non-U.S. Passport.This seems like a non sequitar to me. Since when haven't US passport holders been allowed to visit Pakistan? Probably news to all the Pakistani-Americans who travelled back and forth during that time. Or Charlie Wilson for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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