The dreaded topic.. What if GRRM kills Jon Snow off?

[talkstoangels]

Stannis: Lord Snow, for x reason, I'm gonna have melisandre burn you at the stake.

Jon Snow: Aw shucks.

Jon is about to be set aflame when

HOWLAND REED appears!

Howland Reed: Wait! You can't burn him!

Stannis; Why not? He's not the true king, is he?

Reed: No, but..

Stannis has Jon burned alive.

:lol: love it! thus endeth jon and his emo raging

[Matarreyes]

Cruel as it sounds, I would not care a bit to see him die. Actually, his character may become retrospectively interesting for me if he stops being a sheltered, emo, commit-mistakes-and-get-automatilly-saved-from-paying-the-price doll. He got away from paying for his defect from the Wall, from Ygritte, from many other thing. The got a Mary Sueish valyrian sword. He was named to the supreme commander of a military order with no credentials, no experience and no logic whatsoever. He may be the hidden heir of the books. Am I leaving something out?

OK, He does not have to die. I can settle for him becoming the Jaime Lannister of the new generation, doing the only right thing available to him at the time and living on to be universally despised for it for some 15 years. Think GRRM would want to go that way? Make him kill Dany to save her from Targ madness?

[Rockroi]

Jon Snow is, typically, my least favorite character that has a POV (note: that does not make him my least favorite POV).

If Jon were to die (prior to the final book: in other words, there is an appreciable time the book covers where Jon Snow is known to be dead), I would really believe that it was because the story was made better because of Jon's death; that other characters and the story as a whole required Jon to be dead. I feel the EXACT same way about Robb and Tywin.

Tywin was one of my favorite characters (mostly because he was simply the best at what he did and people hated him for that). However, as SoS wore on I felt that Tywin was, in effect, giving us his death-bed confession: he told us things that were being revealed for the first time that shed so much light on Tywin, Aerys, Robb, Tyrion etc. As the final chapters ended, I really started asking, "What is left for TYwin to do? What is his character's roll?" In effect, he no longer had one, and as a secondary character, it seemed as if he would not get involved in a new story arc. Hence, when Tyrion contemplates visiting Tywin I immediately knew Tywin was going to be killed. As much as I liked Tywin, I knew that the story would be better if he died than to have him linger around.

I would feel very similarly with Jon Snow. If Snow died it would ONLY be because his character life was no longer necessary OR that the story required his death. Ned was almost identical- his death dramatically advanced the story and his character had little left to offer the story, or more accurately, his death offered so much more.

With all that said, I find it unlikely that Jon will die prior to the last book. He is too important to the story and his potential to the story is far too high.

[xythil]

I totally hate the idea of this thread because Jon is my favorite character (and, like Lady of Lannister, I would cry if he died :cry:). But I imagine it might be more like this. What about...

Melisandre: you are a king. I see it in my fires. Burn time!

Jon: huh?

Stannis: Jon, you have offended my honor and I need a puppet Lord Commander! Into the fire with you!

Jon is burned, but not burnt. He walks out alive, like Danny did. But now he is one pissed off Targ with a heart as cold as "stone," waking the "stone dragon" (albeit a person, not a literal dragon) that Mel kept raving about. Then he kills Mel and Stannis with Lightbringer aka Longclaw.

Death of "old" Jon; birth of new.

jon has already been burned by fire =p when he killed the wights

Cruel as it sounds, I would not care a bit to see him die. Actually, his character may become retrospectively interesting for me if he stops being a sheltered, emo, commit-mistakes-and-get-automatilly-saved-from-paying-the-price doll. He got away from paying for his defect from the Wall, from Ygritte, from many other thing. The got a Mary Sueish valyrian sword. He was named to the supreme commander of a military order with no credentials, no experience and no logic whatsoever. He may be the hidden heir of the books. Am I leaving something out?

OK, He does not have to die. I can settle for him becoming the Jaime Lannister of the new generation, doing the only right thing available to him at the time and living on to be universally despised for it for some 15 years. Think GRRM would want to go that way? Make him kill Dany to save her from Targ madness?

To be fair Jon was raised as a high lord. That automatically qyalifies him to command the nights watch. Heck rob who is younger almost conquered battle seasoned Tywin

[carpface]

:lol: love it! thus endeth jon and his emo raging

Emo Raging really?

The only times I thought he was being emo was

1. When he first got to the wall and realized it wasn't a fantastic place (much like Sansa and KL)

2. After Stannis offers him Winterfell and he reflects, guiltly, that part him had always wanted to inherit his fathers land despite being a bastard.

Never felt like he emo raged to much, even when his woman got killed.

[Dreadwolf]

To be fair Jon was raised as a high lord. That automatically qyalifies him to command the nights watch. Heck rob who is younger almost conquered battle seasoned Tywin

I beg to disagree a bit.

Lets presume Ned Stark was succesful in his "coup d'etat".

It would not have been imposble then to see Joffrey at the wall. That should have automatically qyalified him to command the nights watch. I wonder what the commands would have been? ;)

[xythil]

I beg to disagree a bit.

Lets presume Ned Stark was succesful in his "coup d'etat".

It would not have been imposble then to see Joffrey at the wall. That should have automatically qyalified him to command the nights watch. I wonder what the commands would have been? ;)

True but remember on top of skill Jon also showed leadership qualities. He saw his error in beating up on his peers and took to training them. And then hge not only protected piggy but pleaded Aemon to take him as an aid due to his rare ability to read.

[Dreadwolf]

@xythil

Yes Jon has his great merits. And I respet very much him for his attitude towards Sam. And IMO noone can deny that he is very quick to learn - especially from his mistakes. For ene example - That first friendly conversation between him and his older black-brother (the blacksmith, who forged the Robert's Baratheon hammer onnce) was very impressive. And the most of all I was impressed by Jon's understanding. Same about his first serious talk with Tyrion and many other instances. And that is something of paramount importance for a leader, I think.

So please don't understand me wrong. I agree Jon is a good and charismatic leader. (well I have other objections towards him but they are rather irrelevant here and actually beyond of his control as a whole.)

My remark was just a formal one and for fun.

Like I said I do not mind that Jon is particuarly placed high for his education and traning. So my point was something like that:

We are all reading clever books. But we are not equally clever. (just for clarity - this is an old saying and not my invention)

[Matarreyes]

To be fair Jon was raised as a high lord. That automatically qyalifies him to command the nights watch.

By the logic of nobility, Benjen Stark would be a much logical Lord Commander than Mormont. Yet he wasn´t. And Jon is not a Stark. He is a Snow. Slynt and Thorne and any other nobleman is better "quailified", is we are talking titles.

True but remember on top of skill Jon also showed leadership qualities. He saw his error in beating up on his peers and took to training them. And then hge not only protected piggy but pleaded Aemon to take him as an aid due to his rare ability to read.

Sorry to disagree, but not beating his peers, protecting a friend and being able to read can hardly be called great leadership qualities. Learning steps of a teenager is a more appropiate name. While it supposed a big character growth for Jon, you would not be impressed if it were a seasoned warrior going through the motions, you´d just take it for granted. His skills with the sword are not that extraordinary, either. And I am hard pressed to imagine people who spend long winters at the Wall would want to be led by a person who hasn´t been there for more that what? 1-2 years? There are such things as exposure and experience, and he is pretty lacking in that department.

[xythil]

By the logic of nobility, Benjen Stark would be a much logical Lord Commander than Mormont. Yet he wasn´t. And Jon is not a Stark. He is a Snow. Slynt and Thorne and any other nobleman is better "quailified", is we are talking titles.

Sorry to disagree, but not beating his peers, protecting a friend and being able to read can hardly be called great leadership qualities. Learning steps of a teenager is a more appropiate name. While it supposed a big character growth for Jon, you would not be impressed if it were a seasoned warrior going through the motions, you´d just take it for granted. His skills with the sword are not that extraordinary, either. And I am hard pressed to imagine people who spend long winters at the Wall would want to be led by a person who hasn´t been there for more that what? 1-2 years? There are such things as exposure and experience, and he is pretty lacking in that department.

You right they should have made Biter the Lord Commander =p I jest.

Benjen Stark was head ranger. He could and probably would have been Lord Commander if Mormont had died and he was still around.

Also I never said Lord Snow was a high lord, I said he was raised AS a high lord. He was raised as Robs brother. And if we are being technical here Jon is a Targ by birth, heir to the throne =p

I am just saying of the available people Jon was a good choice. I mean do you REALLY think Slynt would have been a good Lord Commander? Jon has shown class, responsibility, skill, and empathy. Things we might take for granted in our society now but are much more rare in Martins world let alone on the wall.

Jon Targaryen has shown his quality and character. Two of the most important things for a leader. And I think you underplay the change he went through from beating up his peers and looking down on them to realizing he could help them. A change Alliser Thorne with all his years on Jon could not do.

[Rinso]

And if we are being technical here Jon is a Targ by birth, heir to the throne =p

OH NO, HE'S NOT!

!!!

:leaving:

[xythil]

OH NO, HE'S NOT!

!!!

:leaving:

Hehe. Only time will tell =0

Although I'd love to hear the evidence against. I am sure there is a post somewhere.

[Rinso]

Oh, there's plenty arguing about it, but that would be threadjacking.

Which I kinda already did :dunce:

But you might take a look at the R+L=J threads.

[Dreadwolf]

Sorry to disagree, but not beating his peers, protecting a friend and being able to read can hardly be called great leadership qualities. Learning steps of a teenager is a more appropiate name. While it supposed a big character growth for Jon, you would not be impressed if it were a seasoned warrior going through the motions, you´d just take it for granted. His skills with the sword are not that extraordinary, either. And I am hard pressed to imagine people who spend long winters at the Wall would want to be led by a person who hasn´t been there for more that what? 1-2 years? There are such things as exposure and experience, and he is pretty lacking in that department.

Matarreyes,

I always like to read your opinion but this time I think your harsh judgement is a little bit rash.

I value a leader of great magnitude for his ability to judge charachters and find the special virtues of his men. i.e. - To take the maximum from everybody, placing him at the right place in accordance with his best skils and fitting. Well in our case we have a potential leader by that time but if not for Jon, Sam would have never been properlry evaluated and accordigly his talent would have been forever lost.

As regards the other boys. They later on turned to be his faithful friends and if not for them he would have been as good as dead or constant runaway. (They returned him to NW when he escapaed to look for revenge after Ned's beheading). Choosing the right friends, the talent to impress people so they would gladly risk their life for your, being chrarismating and persuasive - these are what I call the merits of leadership.

[xythil]

Matarreyes,

I always like to read your opinion but this time I think your harsh judgement is a little bit rash.

I value a leader of great magnitude for his ability to judge charachters and find the special virtues of his men. i.e. - To take the maximum from everybody, placing him at the right place in accordance with his best skils and fitting. Well in our case we have a potential leader by that time but if not for Jon, Sam would have never been properlry evaluated and accordigly his talent would have been forever lost.

As regards the other boys. They later on turned to be his faithful friends and if not for them he would have been as good as dead or constant runaway. (They returned him to NW when he escapaed to look for revenge after Ned's beheading). Choosing the right friends, the talent to impress people so they would gladly risk their life for your, being chrarismating and persuasive - these are what I call the merits of leadership.

Exactly/ Jon Snow showed his quality and it was found not lacking =0

[Matarreyes]

I am just saying of the available people Jon was a good choice. I mean do you REALLY think Slynt would have been a good Lord Commander?

Do you really think I really think Slynt would have been a good Lord Commander? LOL.

Now, regarding good choices, now often do you think they actually get chosen? In Westeros (and real world too), honorability is often a factor against success and even survival, as demonstrated by late Lord Eddard Stark.

Matarreyes, I always like to read your opinion

Wow, thanks.

but this time I think your harsh judgement is a little bit rash

.

That may be so. See how far you can get with a little flattery?

Now, I am cool with agreeing with you all that there are lots of objective merits for Jon to be LC. He is honest and clever and noble... I have nothing against him personally. What I strongly argue against is the realism of a situation where a young and relatively unexperienced teen of 16 years gets elected by a warrior brotherhood of grown and hard men to be their leader. Compare Jon to Robb, for an instance. Robb had nobility, battleskill and was a good leader, but if he weren´t the actual Lord of Wintertell, do you think anyone would ever consider putting him at the head of the North armies? Jon has a POV by himself, and certainly thinks he is more or less managing whatever is thrown his way, but books are full of Catelyn´s observations about how Robb is actually in dire need of councelling on many ocasions. It´s not that Jon´d make a bad LC, it´s that he had as much chances of getting elected as Ned Stark of outwitting Cersei Lannister. But where Ned got a realistic end, Jon got a deus ex machina, which really stands out in a book where people normally pay high prices for both triumph and failure.

[xythil]

Do you really think I really think Slynt would have been a good Lord Commander? LOL.

Now, regarding good choices, now often do you think they actually get chosen? In Westeros (and real world too), honorability is often a factor against success and even survival, as demonstrated by late Lord Eddard Stark.

Wow, thanks.

.

That may be so. See how far you can get with a little flattery?

Now, I am cool with agreeing with you all that there are lots of objective merits for Jon to be LC. He is honest and clever and noble... I have nothing against him personally. What I strongly argue against is the realism of a situation where a young and relatively unexperienced teen of 16 years gets elected by a warrior brotherhood of grown and hard men to be their leader. Compare Jon to Robb, for an instance. Robb had nobility, battleskill and was a good leader, but if he weren´t the actual Lord of Wintertell, do you think anyone would ever consider putting him at the head of the North armies? Jon has a POV by himself, and certainly thinks he is more or less managing whatever is thrown his way, but books are full of Catelyn´s observations about how Robb is actually in dire need of councelling on many ocasions. It´s not that Jon´d make a bad LC, it´s that he had as much chances of getting elected as Ned Stark of outwitting Cersei Lannister. But where Ned got a realistic end, Jon got a deus ex machina, which really stands out in a book where people normally pay high prices for both triumph and failure.

I think you underestimate the caliber of people at the wall. I mean you are talking about the dregs of society. 99% of them sent there against their will. Jon may be young but so are most of the characters. This is a world were 45 is considered old man. Jon is almost middle aged. Jon was tutored by Mormont, had privaledges and training most at the wall never dreamt of, and has also shown has class and character and the ability to learn.

Its not like this is a modern day shipwreck where the survivors elect some 16 year old kid to lead them. This is a different world so using our worlds set of mores to understand it won't work.

[Dreadwolf]

...But where Ned got a realistic end, Jon got a deus ex machina, which really stands out in a book where people normally pay high prices for both triumph and failure.

I am almost sure you should know that at this point I share your opinion: - Yes

Jon is a minion of fortune. (Same like Dany).

One think cannot be denied though:

Since the very first chapter we had seen Jon and Rob together (I think it's Bran - 1, AGOT) we received eloquent evidences that Jon is the one who would be more mature in that harsh life.

The advantages of being a bastard raised in a high lord house:

- He gave better analysis about Garret (NW deserter who Ned beheaded) mental/ spiritual condition;

- As if he was the better Theon's charactre judge;

- He was the one near Bran to advice and solace him at need...

In a way it it confirms my statement in bold. He had all the advantages necessary to survive and prosper in a world of Ice and Fire. And under the word 'fortune' - the author is also included...:)

As a side note: I wish I could be as good as Jon in choosing his friends and enemies. Although I often repeat my salf that I should be more careful with my wishes. (As they might come true...)

@xythil I don't think Matarreyes underestimated something. His PoV is just a little bit different... And that's why we have so much fun on these boards IMO.

[Rinso]

Btw, who says that Jon won't have a hard time being the LC of the NW? Who says that he, just like Robb, won't make stupid mistakes and won't pay for them? The election was just the beginning. I'm willing to bet that his youth and inexperience will be felt in ADWD, even though, if the spoilers chapters are any indication,

SPOILER: ADWD

he'll trying to be as cold and hard as possible.

[Errant Bard]

Btw, who says that Jon won't have a hard time being the LC of the NW? Who says that he, just like Robb, won't make stupid mistakes and won't pay for them? The election was just the beginning.

Noone says that, because what is criticized is the lame rise to power.

By the way, I just realized that quoting a posting with spoiler tags un-spoiler them for you. Arg.